Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!

[Skee]

Applying the whipped New York ricotta and pressed garlic, so I don’t think it was butter that was applied, but don’t really know....How did you decide on using 350 grams for a Detroit style pizza?  Do you think you need a 5 hr. temper with the dough ball in the pan?  It that was has given you the best results?   The bottom of the crust looks nice and crispy.  What did you used as the oil?

OK, ricotta and garlic makes sense after looking at the picture a little closer - you can see that it's spread all over the top, too.  

I'm sticking with 350g for now because it lets me judge the various hydrations and when it works as planned, the height of the crust seems to balance really well with the amount of sauce and cheese I'm using.  Again, I've never had a Buddy's, so can't compare, but I think mine is a little taller than what I've seen in pics and definitely taller than Via 313's and I think I'm lighter on the cheese, too.  

Probably could have gotten away with a little less time rising in the pan but that's how it worked on a weekday - I snuck home at lunch to do the balling and panning and then got home again around 6:00.  That was the first time I've had a dough that would actually ball for this style, usually go higher in hydration and it's too sticky.  

Went back to peanut oil in the pan with a little crisco in the corners again since I wasn't sure about the drier dough.  Pizzas slid out with no prying at all and likely could have skipped the Crisco.

The Detroit Style pans get better every time I use them, so if you're not going to do some pre-use oiling and baking I think you should use a little extra oil and the Crisco to make sure the first couple of pizzas don't stick.

[Skee]

I do recall that some workers at Buddy’s apparently oiled their finger when they spread the dough in the pan.  I guess that would help with the skin not drying out, if no lids are used.  It is still confusing to me if oiling (oiling with fingers dipped in oil), or not oiling the skins any would hurt the rise in the pans or not, but I guess it doesn’t really matter.

If you don't use any bench flour, or just minimal flour, oiling your fingers for stretching really helps with these higher-hydration doughs.  I use just enough to coat the fingers and keep them from sticking and this leaves a very thin layer on the dough with no impact to the rising.

[norma427]

I'm sticking with 350g for now because it lets me judge the various hydrations and when it works as planned, the height of the crust seems to balance really well with the amount of sauce and cheese I'm using.  Again, I've never had a Buddy's, so can't compare, but I think mine is a little taller than what I've seen in pics and definitely taller than Via 313's and I think I'm lighter on the cheese, too.  

Probably could have gotten away with a little less time rising in the pan but that's how it worked on a weekday - I snuck home at lunch to do the balling and panning and then got home again around 6:00.  That was the first time I've had a dough that would actually ball for this style, usually go higher in hydration and it's too sticky.  

Skee,

Thanks for explaining why you like 350 grams of dough for your Detroit pies.  It makes sense in what you posted.  If I ever really make a Buddy’s clone at market, I am going to go down on the cheese amount too. 

Thanks also for explaining about you rise in the pan.  Good to hear you could get the dough to ball.  Your dough balls look nice. 

If you don't use any bench flour, or just minimal flour, oiling your fingers for stretching really helps with these higher-hydration doughs.  I use just enough to coat the fingers and keep them from sticking and this leaves a very thin layer on the dough with no impact to the rising.

Thanks for explaining about the oiling too!

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Thanks for the link where you quoted what lufty said about Buddy’s cross stacking its pans. I do recall that some workers at Buddy’s apparently oiled their finger when they spread the dough in the pan.  I guess that would help with the skin not drying out, if no lids are used.  It is still confusing to me if oiling (oiling with fingers dipped in oil), or not oiling the skins any would hurt the rise in the pans or not, but I guess it doesn’t really matter.

Norma,

If what was reported in Reply 126 is correct, Buddy's pizza dough at the time lufty worked for Buddy's was a 1-2 hour dough that was made several times a day, with the earliest dough being used for lunch service. Assuming that the dough was a high hydration dough, it is possible that a "skin" might have formed on the surface of the dough but it may have been a minor and inconsequential one, just as I have observed with high hydration preferments (like a poolish or sponge). The "skin" might also have largely disappeared once the blob of dough was spread into the pan. I personally wouldn't want a lot of oil on the surface of the dough as it is formed in the pan because I wouldn't want the cheese to slide off of the oil on the finished pizza. The oil also wouldn't be needed to keep the sauce from migrating into the dough because it is added on top of the cheese. I think a simple experimental emergency dough formulation along the lines that Buddy's was said to use would answer all of your questions.

In the case of Jet's, which uses covers for their pans, I understand that some (but not all) Jet's franchisees hold unused dough (a dough made similarly to Buddy's) over to the next day, in their coolers. However, the Jet's dough has a considerably lower hydration value that perhaps is amenable to a drier "skin" being formed on the surface of the dough.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

I just wanted to note that my new seasoned steel pizza pans really aren’t 10”x14” if they are measured with a metal measuring tape on the top edges.  I guess it doesn’t really matter.

Norma,

What were the dimensions of the pan? The 10" x 14" pans that were originally available from Northern Pizza Supply (and I believe P.A. Products) were a true 10" x 14" across the top. The dimensions do matter since the amount of dough has to conform to the pan size. That shouldn't be a problem once we are able to determine the thickness factor, since that value can be used in the expanded dough calculating tool for any size pan, rectangular or round.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

If what was reported in Reply 126 is correct, Buddy's pizza dough at the time lufty worked for Buddy's was a 1-2 hour dough that was made several times a day, with the earliest dough being used for lunch service. Assuming that the dough was a high hydration dough, it is possible that a "skin" might have formed on the surface of the dough but it may have been a minor and inconsequential one, just as I have observed with high hydration preferments (like a poolish or sponge). The "skin" might also have largely disappeared once the blob of dough was spread into the pan. I personally wouldn't want a lot of oil on the surface of the dough as it is formed in the pan because I wouldn't want the cheese to slide off of the oil on the finished pizza. The oil also wouldn't be needed to keep the sauce from migrating into the dough because it is added on top of the cheese. I think a simple experimental emergency dough formulation along the lines that Buddy's was said to use would answer all of your questions.

In the case of Jet's, which uses covers for their pans, I understand that some (but not all) Jet's franchisees hold unused dough (a dough made similarly to Buddy's) over to the next day, in their coolers. However, the Jet's dough has a considerably lower hydration value that perhaps is amenable to a drier "skin" being formed on the surface of the dough.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for explaining about how a skin could have formed on the surface of the dough.  I thought Buddy’s did make dough balls and didn’t just place a blob of dough into the pans to ferment and then press them out.  I could be wrong on that though.  I think I was thinking along the lines of the dough forming a skin when the dough sits in the cross stacked pans, while the dough is fermenting.  I think I did see where Via 313 might place blobs of dough in their pans though. 

I can understand about not wanting a lot of oil on the surface of the dough, because of the cheese falling off and more oil on the pizza. 

What kind of simple experimental emergency dough do you have in mind for me to try in the timeline of what lufty reported?  Do you want me try it at home, or at market?  I would like my questions answered, so am willing to do whatever you want me to do.

I know I tried some Jet’s formulations and do know what I tried was lower in hydration than a Buddy’s clone.  I like the Buddy’ clone pizzas better.  I would think it Jet’s wouldn’t cover their pans, there might be problems with dryness of the skin.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma,

What were the dimensions of the pan? The 10" x 14" pans that were originally available from Northern Pizza Supply (and I believe P.A. Products) were a true 10" x 14" across the top. The dimensions do matter since the amount of dough has to conform to the pan size. That shouldn't be a problem once we are able to determine the thickness factor, since that value can be used in the expanded dough calculating tool for any size pan, rectangular or round.

Peter

Peter,

These are pictures of what my 10”x14” pans look like from Detroit Style Pizza Co.  It can be seen by the measurements with my metal measuring tape, the 14” measurement isn’t off by much, but the 10” measurement is off a little more.  My one pan I received today doesn’t have as much seasoning (one picture) on the one spot, but the other two steel pans look fine as far seasoning.

I can understand if the dimensions are not really true, it won’t really matter once you are able to determine the TF for a Buddy’s clone.  I know the expanded dough calculating tool can be used for any size pan.

I just talked to Trenton Bill and he said he received his pans yesterday from the Detroit Style Pizza Co. and his one pan was dented and both pans weren’t seasoned right.  He threw the one pan away.  I told him he could have used something like a grill, or something else to burn off the rest of the seasoning off and start over.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Thanks for explaining about how a skin could have formed on the surface of the dough.  I thought Buddy’s did make dough balls and didn’t just place a blob of dough into the pans to ferment and then press them out.  I could be wrong on that though.  I think I was thinking along the lines of the dough forming a skin when the dough sits in the cross stacked pans, while the dough is fermenting.

You can read how former employee lufty at Buddy's described how he formed the dough for the Buddy's square pizzas in the italicized part of Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795 . 
 

What kind of simple experimental emergency dough do you have in mind for me to try in the timeline of what lufty reported?  Do you want me try it at home, or at market?  I would like my questions answered, so am willing to do whatever you want me to do.

Since the sole purpose of the experiment is to see if a Buddy's emergency clone dough develops a "skin" on its surface during its brief fermentation period (1-2 hours), it does not matter whether you conduct the experiment at home or at market. However, if you are to use a 1-2 hour room temperature fermentation period as a target, you may want to use 0.80% IDY and water warm enough to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 90 degrees F. The actual fermentation time will be influenced by the room temperature where the dough is to be fermented.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

These are pictures of what my 10”x14” pans look like from Detroit Style Pizza Co.  It can be seen by the measurements with my metal measuring tape, the 14” measurement isn’t off by much, but the 10” measurement is off a little more.  My one pan I received today doesn’t have as much seasoning (one picture) on the one spot, but the other two steel pans look fine as far seasoning.

Norma,

According to the Detroit Style Pizza Co. website at http://detroitstylepizza.co/detroit-style-pizza-pans/, the large pan is given as 10" x 14". From the photos you provided, I would say that any variances look to be slight and, in my opinion, should not affect the results you get using your Buddy's clone doughs. Remember, also, that Buddy's pizzas will vary in weight from one pizza to another, both unbaked and baked, because the cheese is measured out volumetrically (see http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Mf788bNv6xv/340x.jpg) and the amount of sauce is largely a guess. Variations for the pepperoni slices should be fairly minor from one pizza to another so long as the correct number of slices are used.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,
You can read how former employee lufty at Buddy's described how he formed the dough for the Buddy's square pizzas in the italicized part of Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795 . 
 Since the sole purpose of the experiment is to see if a Buddy's emergency clone dough develops a "skin" on its surface during its brief fermentation period (1-2 hours), it does not matter whether you conduct the experiment at home or at market. However, if you are to use a 1-2 hour room temperature fermentation period as a target, you may want to use 0.80% IDY and water warm enough to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 90 degrees F. The actual fermentation time will be influenced by the room temperature where the dough is to be fermented.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the link again about what lufty said about how he formed the dough for Buddy’s square pan.   

I see lufty said:  The balls are weighed and placed in the pans loosely stretched and stacked up criss-cross to rise. A few hours later they are stretched out properly, using your thumb to press the corners into the pan a midway up the edge.

I will perform the experiment on Saturday to see if a Buddy’s emergency clone dough develops a skin on the surface in the 1-2 hr. fermentation period.  I already have a print out of the emergency Buddy’s formulation from the expanded dough calculation tool with 0.80% IDY.  I will strive for a finished dough temperature of around 90 degrees F.  I know the actual fermentation time will be influenced by the room temperature of where the dough is to be fermented.  My kitchen is quite cool at this time of the year, so I might use my little disc heater that I usually keep in the bathroom to help make my kitchen warmer.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma,

According to the Detroit Style Pizza Co. website at http://detroitstylepizza.co/detroit-style-pizza-pans/, the large pan is given as 10" x 14". From the photos you provided, I would say that any variances look to be slight and, in my opinion, should not affect the results you get using your Buddy's clone doughs. Remember, also, that Buddy's pizzas will vary in weight from one pizza to another, both unbaked and baked, because the cheese is measured out volumetrically (see http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Mf788bNv6xv/340x.jpg) and the amount of sauce is largely a guess. Variations for the pepperoni slices should be fairly minor from one pizza to another so long as the correct number of slices are used.

Peter

Peter,

I agree that my steel pans measurements are slight, but I just wanted to note that they weren’t exactly 10”x14”. 

I forgot about Buddy’s weighing their cheese out volumetrically and that also affecting the weight of the final pizzas.  I do know that the sauce is largely a guess.

I can understand now the variances in my steel pans really won’t make any difference. 

Norma 

[TXCraig1]

I got (5) 8x10 pans from them last week, and they all looked basically OK. I went ahead and put another coat of seasoning on them anyway.

[norma427]

I got (5) 8x10 pans from them last week, and they all looked basically OK. I went ahead and put another coat of seasoning on them anyway.

Craig,

Great to hear you got 5 (8”x10”) steel pan from Detroit Style Pizza Co.  Sounds like you are gearing up to make a lot of Detroit style pizzas.  I remember in NY when you told Steve and me your love was only for Neapolitan pies.  Glad you found another style of pie that you also like.   

How did you put on another coat of seasoning?  You can see my 8”x10” steel pans aren’t seasoned right.
They do work okay now and the pies slip right out most of the time, but at first the Jet’s pizzas I tried wanted to stick.

Norma

[TXCraig1]

Craig,

Great to hear you got 5 (8”x10”) steel pan from Detroit Style Pizza Co.  Sounds like you are gearing up to make a lot of Detroit style pizzas.  I remember in NY when you told Steve and me your love was only for Neapolitan pies.  Glad you found another style of pie that you also like.   

How did you put on another coat of seasoning?  You can see my 8”x10” steel pans aren’t seasoned right.
They do work okay now and the pies slip right out most of the time, but at first the Jet’s pizzas I tried wanted to stick.

Norma

NP is still my only true love. Detroit is more of a flirty affair.  I figured I'd need 5 if we ever invited any people over to try it as the number of pans dictates how many pies you can make in an evening. I went with 8x10 so there would be a higher edge crust/middle ratio (.45" of edge crust per in² of pie vs .34" for 10x14).

To season the pans, I wiped the insides down with a thin coat of Crisco (MFB would be fine) and put them in a 500F oven for an hour and a half or so - until they stopped smoking. A couple thin coats (baked on between) are better than a single thick coat.

The more you use them the more non-stick they will get. No water ever for washing.

[norma427]

NP is still my only true love. Detroit is more of a flirty affair.  I figured I'd need 5 if we ever invited any people over to try it as the number of pans dictates how many pies you can make in an evening. I went with 8x10 so there would be a higher edge crust/middle ratio (.45" of edge crust per in² of pie vs .34" for 10x14).

To season the pans, I wiped the insides down with a thin coat of Crisco (MFB would be fine) and put them in a 500F oven for an hour and a half or so - until they stopped smoking. A couple thin coats (baked on between) are better than a single thick coat.

The more you use them the more non-stick they will get. No water ever for washing.

Craig,

I had thought NP was still your true love.  I find it amusing that the Detroit-style is more of a flirty affair for you.  I understand now why you purchased 5 steel pans.  I don’t understand how you did those calculations, but how much dough in grams do you use for a 8”x10” square pan?

Thanks for explaining to me how you seasoned your steel pans.  I will season my new steel pans some more before I try them.

Norma

[TXCraig1]

I don’t understand how you did those calculations, but how much dough in grams do you use for a 8”x10” square pan?

I used 325g for an 8x10 last time, but I think that is a little too much. I'll try 300g next.

The other calculations were to show that you get proportionally more of the crispy cheese edge crust (my favorite part) on an 8x10 pies than on a 10x14.

An 8x10 pie has 80in² or pizza (8x10) and a 36" parameter (8+8+10+10). Therefore, you have .45" of edge crust for every square inch of pizza (36/80). A 10x14 pie has 140in² of pizza and a 48" parameter so you only get 0.34" of edge crust per square inch of pie (48/140).

If you like the crispy edge, 8x10 is the way to go.

Craig

[norma427]

I used 325g for an 8x10 last time, but I think that is a little too much. I'll try 300g next.

The other calculations were to show that you get proportionally more of the crispy cheese edge crust (my favorite part) on an 8x10 pies than on a 10x14.

An 8x10 pie has 80in² or pizza (8x10) and a 36" parameter (8+8+10+10). Therefore, you have .45" of edge crust for every square inch of pizza (36/80). A 10x14 pie has 140in² of pizza and a 48" parameter so you only get 0.34" of edge crust per square inch of pie (48/140).

If you like the crispy edge, 8x10 is the way to go.

Craig

Craig,

Thanks for posting how much dough you used in grams and how much dough in grams you plan to use the next time.

It is interesting you could calculate to show how much extra crispy edge crust you can get with using a 8”x10” steel pan. 

I can see by your explaining that there is more extra crispy edge with using the smaller pan, but sure don’t understand the calculations.  You sure have a good brain and a knack for doing anything well.

Norma

[norma427]

If anyone might be interested, I contacted Great Lakes Cheese to see if there are any distributors in my area for their brick cheese.  I told them I was located in SE Pa.  I also received a xls. about the Great Lakes brick cheese, but can’t open that document.  I sent another email to see if Great Lakes does have distributors for their brick cheese in my area.

This is what the email said.

Hello Norma,

Great Lakes Cheese does produce the Brick cheese, and can be purchased by a number of distributors in western Pennsylvania:

0000010173   CLOVERHILL FOOD PRODUCTS   110057   BRICK 2/6 LB GLC
0000015039   MCANENY BROTHERS   110057   BRICK 2/6 LB GLC
0000010098   BLACKBURN & RUSSELL   110057   BRICK 2/6 LB GLC
0000014138   REINHART PITTSBURGH   110057   BRICK 2/6 LB GLC

Please confirm which one you buy from, as they each currently carry this item form us.

They would then quote you.

Item information is below, along with my contact information.

Item #   SAP#   Product Description   Pack/Size   Quote/   Ti/Hi   Pallet
24210   110057   Brick Loaf   2/6   BLK +   20/5   100

Thank you,

Tim Holden

Tim Holden sent me a follow-up email when I explained again what region of Pa. I was from.  I had asked for a pdf. document about the Great Lakes brick cheese, since I can’t open the xls., but didn’t get a pdf. document.

Norma,
The 2 distributors that currently purchase this item are:
0000010633   SCHIFF'S FDSRV   110057   BRICK 2/6 LB GLC
0000010754   US FD 2J ALLENTOWN   110057   BRICK 2/6 LB GLC

Craig: please confirm where Schiffs is located for Norma.
Item #   SAP#   Product Description   Pack/Size   Quote/   Ti/Hi   Pallet
24210   110057   Brick Loaf   2/6   BLK +   20/5   100

Thank you,
Tim Holden

Norma

[norma427]

Craig, that is a cheese broker for Great Lakes, (both retail and foodservice) called me today and said that Schiffs is located in Scranton, Pa.  Craig was trying to find me a supplier that does carry the Great Lakes brick cheese and will call me back next week, but it doesn’t look like any distributors near me carry the Great Lakes brick cheese.  Feesers (in Harrisburg, Pa.) and Sysco Foods (also in Harrisburg, Pa.) do carry Great Lake cheeses, but not the brick cheese.

Norma

[norma427]

I purchased a 25 lb. bag of bromated Occident flour at my supplier today.  I also brought the CARANDO pepperoni home from market (CARANDO was the pepperoni I had wanted to slice on Tuesday and use on a Buddy‘s clone, but didn‘t have time to slice it).  The CARANDO pepperoni does taste very similar to the Vermont Smoked pepperoni.  This was the same pepperoni I put under the cheese when I baked two of the Buddy’s clones in my moms gas oven. 

What I would like to know is if I should slice the pepperoni and use it on the emergency Buddy’s clone pizza tomorrow?  I don’t know how helpful the final bake weight would be if I baked the Buddy’s clone in my home oven though.  I do plan to use my pizza stone.  I do also plan on using all brick cheese. 

Norma