Author Topic: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 108057 times)

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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #540 on: November 28, 2012, 09:28:32 PM »
In the pictures, it looks like the sauce has some oil in it?
Most marinara sauces do...no?
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #541 on: November 28, 2012, 09:36:05 PM »
Most marinara sauces do...no?

I don't know. Maybe. I was just asking. It's not something I normally do.
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #542 on: November 28, 2012, 10:03:55 PM »
All marinara sauces I've had/seen at restaurants here in the States have oil in them....gives it the characteristic red/orange color(depending how much oil is used). It is my understanding that a Detroit Style, traditionally, uses a marinara sauce.

What is the difference between marinara sauce and pomodoro sauce?.....

"Ask several people this question and you'll get several different answers. My answer is based on my background. I'm first born generation here in the states and grew up on my mom's and nonna's Italian cooking. My dad is from Campania and my mom is from Calabria. Growing up, we spent many summers with our relatives in Italy and I was schooled in southern Italy for a year. I think a lot of Italians consider the two sauces the same thing. I have a feeling that's what my mom would say if I asked her ("pomodoro" means tomato).
Marinara sauce is a meatless tomato sauce made with fresh tomatoes, olive oil, garlic and fresh (never dried) basil and salt, that's it. It simmers for only about 20 minutes. The texture is liquidy but with chunks of tomatoes. Since it simmers for a short period of time it retains a lot of it's bright red/orange color as opposed to a deeper red on sauces that simmer for hours. While some of the olive oil blends with the tomatoes, some of it does not. So the olive oil lends a shimmery orange color to the pasta and maybe even adds a tad velvety texture.
A pomodoro sauce, is a lot like the marinara sauce only it's thicker, but still liquidy. It feels a lot like minced tomatoes in your mouth rather than the chuncks you get with marinara sauce. It's cooked a little longer so it's darker in color but not much. "
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Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #543 on: November 28, 2012, 10:16:47 PM »
No oil in my marinaras, the orange color comes from fresh tomatoes.

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #544 on: November 28, 2012, 10:28:41 PM »
What is the difference between marinara sauce and pomodoro sauce?.....


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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #545 on: November 28, 2012, 10:39:57 PM »
Who are you quoting in your quote Bob?
Just some guy on the web that I thought expressed the dominant thought/site topic quite well...search the topic if you prefer but remember , the first sentence was..."Ask several people this question and you'll get several different answers."
So your mileage may vary...heck, even PH's marinara has oil in it.... ;)
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #546 on: November 28, 2012, 10:56:22 PM »
even PH's marinara has oil in it.... ;)

Oil is often a way to make nasty food taste better...
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #547 on: November 28, 2012, 11:09:29 PM »
Oil is often a way to make nasty food taste better...
I don't eat PH(using that as a commonality) but I have had some nasty 'que where I guess they thought by adding oil it made it better...Chinese take out follows suit too.
Just trying to repeat what I have come across in researching marinara and what I have always seen ITRW.  ;)  By all means, leave out the oil if you prefer.....I just don't think Buddy is....
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 11:11:23 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #548 on: November 28, 2012, 11:21:36 PM »
Like I said. I was just asking.
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Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #549 on: November 28, 2012, 11:24:44 PM »
I have never had a Buddy's, but I can guarantee you that the only DS I have had is not marinara and contains no oil.

Not that I consider Wiki to be more than half-ass reliable, but it makes no mention of oil and follows pretty much along with my recipe(s):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marinara_sauce


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #550 on: November 28, 2012, 11:27:17 PM »
Like I said. I was just asking.
Hey, anytime Craig...always happy to help out with any inquiries you may have.  :chef:
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #551 on: November 28, 2012, 11:31:48 PM »
I have never had a Buddy's, but I can guarantee you that the only DS I have had is not marinara and contains no oil.

Not that I consider Wiki to be more than half-ass reliable, but it makes no mention of oil and follows pretty much along with my recipe(s):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marinara_sauce
I'll see your wiki an raise you one.... ;D

Detroit-style pizza
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Detroit-style pizza is a style of pizza developed in Detroit, Michigan. It is a square pizza similar to Sicilian-style pizza that has a thick deep-dish crisp crust and toppings such as pepperoni and olives and is served with the marinara sauce on top.[1][2] The square shaped pizza is the result of being baked in a square pan, which is often not a pizza pan.[3] Rather, industrial parts trays are often used, which were originally made to hold small parts in factories.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit-style_pizza
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Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #552 on: November 28, 2012, 11:33:52 PM »
I don't see anything about oil in the marinara on there.  I have only had 2 versions of DS, and neither has marinara or oil in the sauce (one was my own).

Offline Ev

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #553 on: November 28, 2012, 11:35:48 PM »
I did not get the impression that there was any oil in the sauce, rather, it seems to be a watered down product of a finely ground tomato with basil, to which has been added a blend of salt, a little sugar, a little oregano, a little garlic and maybe a little black pepper. The sauce, by itself, tasted fresh and fairly balanced between salty and sweet, but maybe a tad salt heavy. Everything else, you had to look for.
 The cheese was very mild and had a chewy texture. I noticed that it was crumbled rather than shredded. It did char well on the edge though, combining with the oil in the pan and take on a little more flavor.
 The pepperoni, I found to be very interesting. I ate a slice by itself and thought it tasted very "meaty", and not until I swallowed did I get any of the familiar pepperoni "spice" flavor. And then, it seemed to linger longer than usual in the back of my mouth.
 The crust was crispy on the bottom and gummy on the top, especially, as you might imagine, under the sauce. I've always kind of liked the contrast and blend of crispy/gummy, so this didn't bother me at all. It's quite possible, I should think, that this is more pronounced in a frozen mail order, thawed and re-baked pizza, as opposed to a fresh pie at the restaurant.  At one point I isolated a portion of the crumb from pretty much everything else and found it to have not much flavor at all.
I think that the strength of the pie lies in the whole rather than the sum of it's ingredients, with each element becoming stronger as it bonds with the next.
 All in all, I did enjoy the pizza. If there was a Buddys in my town, I'd buy their pizza once in a while for sure, but having said that, I'd rather have Norma's version of Buddys pizza, and I mean that! Her crust has more complexity, her sauce is great, and I really like the different cheese combinations she has been using.

 Thank you Norma for inviting me to share your Buddy's pizza! What fun to have a friend like you, so passionate and willing to try anything and share all that you have learned! I'm lucky to know you! ;D

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #554 on: November 29, 2012, 12:10:25 AM »
Detroit-style pizza is a style of pizza developed in Detroit, Michigan. It is a square pizza similar to Sicilian-style pizza that has a thick deep-dish crisp crust and toppings such as pepperoni and olives and is served with the marinara sauce on top.[1][2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit-style_pizza


It's interesting that neither of the links (1,2) that wiki cited actually used the word "maranara."

I don't see where Buddy's, Shield's, or Detroit use the word "maranara" for their pizza either.
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #555 on: November 29, 2012, 07:35:36 AM »
Norma,

Thanks to you and Steve for collecting all of the data on your Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza and giving us your assessment and opinions on the pizza. I will confess that I am often skeptical of claims that pizza operators make about the quality of their mail order pizzas. As I was awaiting your report, I was reminded of the experience that member DKM once had when he ordered and baked two frozen deep-dish pizzas that he had purchased from Malnati's. It took me a while to find his report but it is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,571.0.html. It looks like you had better results than DKM had with his frozen Malnati's pizzas. Yet your pizza did not appear to be identical to a freshly baked cheese and pepperoni pizza as sold in Buddy's store based on the photos I have seen of Buddy's pizzas. I don't mean this as a criticism. It is what it is.

I agree with you that Buddy's sent you more of the sauce than they use in their stores for the 4-square pizza. It might fit their 8-square pizza better. However, you at least have a sample in case you want to analyze it or conduct tests on it at some future date. My understanding has always been that Buddy's uses a Stanislaus tomato product of some sort. That aside, I have not found much in my searches on the makeup of the Buddy's sauce but I do recall that tasters mentioned oregano and a hint of garlic. Seeing the basil leaves in the sauce in the YouTube video you prepared, I might add that the Stanislaus tomato products that include basil leaves include the Full Red with Fresh Basil (http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/_pdfs/Full-Red-Pizza-Sauce-w-Fresh-Basil.pdf), the Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce (http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/_pdfs/Saporito-Pizza-Sauce-w-Fresh-Basil.pdf), and the SuperDolce (http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/_pdfs/Super-Dolce-Pizza-Sauce.pdf). I do not recall that the Buddy's sauce is super sweet, which might rule out the SuperDolce. My recollection is that Buddy's has an herb/spice blend for its sauce and, according to lufty, the former Buddy's employee, the Buddy's pizza sauce is a watered down sauce (Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795). By any chance, did you see any basil leaves in the sauce on the pizza itself?

With respect to the cheese, I can't say that I am surprised that it did not appear that there was 8 ounces on the pizza you received. It's not clear whether all of the pizza assemblers at Buddy's use portioning cups or just free throw the cheese onto the pizza, but in either case, the amount of cheese can vary from one pizza to another. You might also remember that in one of the exchanges that I had with Buddy's I was told that there are variations on the items that go on their pizzas because they are using volume measurements rather than weights. From the photos, it also looks like the Buddy's cheese is diced rather than shredded. Was that your observation also?

It is also good that you were able to confirm that, to the best of your knowledge, there was only one type of cheese used on the pizza you received. To the extent there was a mystery on that point, it appears that it has been resolved. If that is in fact so, then I think it is safe to say that the cheese is brick cheese.

The pepperoni slices appear to be in the ballpark in terms of diameter but a bit light in the weight department when compared with the data you previously received on the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni. No doubt there were some losses in weight due to oiling off during baking and maybe a small amount of shrinkage. In any event, I can't say that we can rule out the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni as the product that Buddy's uses on its pizzas with pepperoni. By any chance, were you able to determine how many pepperoni slices were used in the pizza you received?

Like you, I noticed that the difference between the "before" and "after" weighs of the pizza was not large. However, it should be remembered that there would have been some losses during the partial baking of the pizza. We will never know what those losses were.

On the matter of the crumb and its relationship to the hydration of the dough, it is hard to know what to make of the tighter crumb of the Buddy's pizza you received since the pizza was partially baked and then frozen, making it hard to say whether those two steps had an effect on the crumb.

When I read your comment on the air bubbles at the bottom crust and that the bottom crust was not especially flat, I was reminded that Tom Lehmann was once asked about that over at the PMQ Think Tank. I did a search of that forum and found two questions on that point, one at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=75816#p75816 and the other at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=49630#p49630. I don't believe that Tom ever responded to the first questioner but he did answer the second questioner at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=49641#p49641. Interestingly, Tom blamed shortening for the cratering problem, not oil, which is what the first questioner used. I was also intrigued by the first questioner's post (at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=75816#p75816) since it described a Detroit style dough that has similarities to the Detroit style doughs we have been studying and researching for some time. It was also the first time that I read of someone using the Lloyd anodized pans (most likely a Sicilian pan rather than one of their Detroit style pans, based on the size) to make the questioner's Detroit style pizza.

I'm glad that both you and Steve enjoyed the pizza. But what I'd really like to know is how you (and Steve, if he wishes to opine on the matter) would compare the Buddy's clone pizzas you have been making with the Buddy's pizza you and Steve ate. And did you learn anything from the Buddy'a pizza that would give you cause to change anything you have been doing to arrive at a credible Buddy's clone dough or pizza?

Peter



Peter,

Thanks for the link to where DKM once had ordered and baked two frozen deep-dish Malnatiís pizzas.  He sure fared worse than I did in mail ordering a Buddyís pizza.  If I would have seen that report I might not have purchased a Buddyís pizza by phone for mail order shipping.

I have no idea if the way we did the final bake affected the Buddyís clone in how it finished baking.  I should have tried the way they recommended on the instructions for a Half-Baked Pizza that I received with BuddyĎs pizza.  I didnít want the crumb to become too dry and at first I was just going to do the final bake on my one black pan that is just a pizza pan for the oven.  After Steve and I talked it over we decided that way might make the crumb too dry if the final bake time would get to 15 minutes.  That is the reason we finished baking Buddyís pizza in the steel pan.  I am not sure if our method of doing the final baked gave the gum line or not.   I really donít know if that affected how the pizza looked either, but it could have affected how the cheese looked.

I really donít know how to do tests on the Buddyís sauce but it tasted really good and fresh.  I would have thought it also was a Stanislaus tomato product.  As you probably know I do use Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce.  I really canít tell if it was Saporito Super Heavy with water added, but donít really think so because of those tiny bits of what looked like ground-up skins of tomatoes.  Does The Full Red with basil have those kind of tomatoes peel pieces in them?  I think I did use Full Red with basil at one time, but donít recall those little pieces of whatever it was in the sauce.  I really couldnít taste a lot garlic in Buddyís sauce, but then I really taste it that much in mine either.   I think I am becoming too accustomed to tasting garlic, because I do use a lot of fresh garlic in my regular cooking.  I think I use more garlic than most people.  I can taste Buddyís sauce again if you want me too to see if I can pick-up any other tastes.   

Yes, it was my observation that the Buddyís cheese was diced rather than shredded.  Steve really gave the Buddyís pizza a through looking over before we did the final bake and he also did agree that the cheese did look diced. 

With respect to the pepperoni slices they could have lost some weight in the initial bake at Buddyís.  They sure werenít really baked when we took them off the pizza though.  Steve just dug off the corner slices of pepperoni and we really didnít want to disturb the whole Buddyís pizza so I really donít know how many slices there were on the pie.

I can only hope I am right that it only brick cheese used on Buddyís pizza.  I havenít tried that many brick cheeses, but in my opinion right now it was brick cheese.  To try and explain a little better all of the mozzarellas I have tried do have a little salt taste in them and out of the two I normally use one tastes better if eaten without baking, but nothing bland like the cheese on BuddyĎs pizza.  Of course they are foodservice mozzarellas.  Steve and I each took a little piece of the cheese off after weighing the Buddyís pizza, but before the final bake.  We both thought the cheese tasted rather bland without any salt.  That is one reason I think it is brick cheese.  There was no cheddar taste that Steve or I could detect.  I never tasted a cheese like Buddyís uses and was surprised how long it took it to melt at all.  I am not a cheese expert though, so I could be wrong on everything. 

I did find Tomís comment about using shortening interesting in reference to the air bubbles on the bottom crust.  On Tuesday I did use Canola oil and still had those air bubbles on my second pizza.  As you know I did try MFB shortening in some of my Buddyís attempts and some of them still have the air bubbles and some of them did not.  I find it intriguing what might cause those air bubbles.  pizzaboyjohnís formulation for a Detroit-style pizza sounds very similar to what I am using with about the same hydration, but with he used sugar in his dough.   


Donít you think that the before Buddyís cheese and pepperoni pizza weight was even a little low, in comparison to my final bake weights of the clones I have been attempting? 

I donít know what was wrong with my internet explorer last evening, but sometimes it did let me look at the internet last evening and sometimes it didnít.  I tried to quote and post this reply and a reply to Craigís post last evening, but for some reason it I couldnít do it.  I couldnít even look at the links from Tom Lehmann.  I finally gave up last evening.

I really donít want to give to much of any opinions on how I liked the Buddyís clone in comparison to what I have been attempting, but will say I like the crumb structure better in my attempts.  I donít really want to butt heads with what is supposed to be the number 1 pizza in the country right now according to some reports and I havenít tasted a freshly baked Buddyís pizza.  I would purchase Buddyís pizza if they were closer to me though.

I also forgot to post before in my initial report that the really good caramelization wasnít there on the real Buddyís pizza after the final baked.  It sure looked like it was there, but I couldnít taste it and it wasnĎt that nice crunchy wonderful taste.  I thought that was strange too, but maybe from the shrinkage of the initial half-bake the sides with the cheese didnít get that crunchiness. 

I donít think I will change anything right now in my attempt to make a Detroit-style pizza.  I just want to try to get consistent results all the time.  My Buddyís attempts really aren't clones, but are close enough for me.  On Tuesday market was really slow for all stand holders because of the snow, hunting season in our area and because it was a week right after a holiday.  It was interesting that 3 customers came back to purchase the Buddyís clones I am trying out for market.  I had only eaten one slice out of the two test pizzas, so I did sell the customers slices.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #556 on: November 29, 2012, 07:45:30 AM »
In the pictures, it looks like the sauce has some oil in it?

Craig,

I couldnít detect any oil in Buddyís sauce, by looking at it or tasting it. 

I donít know if you ever have seen what I use in my market sauce though.  I do use olive oil with fresh crushed garlic, Italian seasoning, oregano and few ground red peppers which are microwaved first.  I then canít detect any oil in my sauce.  I only use about 2 teaspoons of the mixture for a big can of Saporito.  I was given my recipe for sauce by a pizza business owner in my area.  The Saporito sauce I use needs added water and if you look at pictures of the sauce just applied on some of my pizzas I donít think you would be able to see that I use oil in my market sauce.

Norma

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #557 on: November 29, 2012, 07:53:05 AM »
Bob is correct that there are places--and not only limited to the wikipedia article--that say that marinara sauce is used on Detroit style pizzas. However, like Craig, I have never found any evidence that any of the majors specializing in the Detroit style pizza, including Buddy's, Shield's, Loui's and Cloverleaf/Detroit Style Pizza Co, has ever stated that it uses a marinara sauce. Craig is also correct that the footnotes to the wikepedia article do not mention marinara sauce as the sauce used for the Detroit style pizza (I went down that dead end long ago). If any of the above companies ever said that they used marinara sauce for their Detroit style pizzas, that would have jumped out at me like a bolt out of the blue because it would have been an important revelation.

In Buddy's case, it does offer a marinara sauce (see a typical Buddy's menu at http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/Carryout101.pdf). But it is for its pasta dishes, not for its pizzas and, as such, I assume that the marinara sauce is a cooked sauce. For its square pizzas, Buddy's only offers two sauces, the Original sauce and a Tomato Basil Sauce. They go on the pizzas last but prior to baking. By contrast, the Detroit Style Pizza Co apparently puts the sauce down after baking (http://detroit.ourcityradio.com/food-and-drink/world-champion-pizza-maker-to-launch-detroit-style-pizza-co). Via 313 also puts down the sauce after baking. What is not clear in the case of the Detroit Style Pizza Co is whether the sauce is cooked. What has been previously reported is that Cloverleaf Pizza, which is owned by the Detroit Style Pizza Co, uses a simmered sauce, as was noted in the Slice article at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/03/united-states-of-pizza-michigan-best-pizza-in-detroit-ann-arbor-upper-peninsula-flint.html. I have not been able to substantiate Ms. Rector's statement in the Slice article on the simmered sauce. However, we do know that Via 313's sauce is not a cooked sauce.

As for the use of oil in the Detroit style pizza sauces, I have not read anything to that effect. If Buddy's is using oil in its sauce, it most likely would be in a sauce as received from its supplier, such as Stanislaus. All we know about Buddy's sauce, other than some occasional references to the seasonings, is what a former Buddy's employee, lufty, reported in the quoted material in Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #558 on: November 29, 2012, 09:11:51 AM »
I received a return call from Joe Widmer yesterday while I was at the supermarket.  He left a message on my land line answering machine, but I didnít find time to post about Joeís call yesterday.  Joe said they do carry two brick cheeses.  The one is the stinky kind of brick cheese that has a powerful flavor and is packaged in a foil package.  Joe said the other brick cheese is very mild and is yellow.  After Joe said the mild brick cheese is yellow, I looked at the 1 lb. of Specialty brick cheese on Widmerís website at  http://www.widmerscheese.com/products/Vac-Pack-Mild-Specialty-Brick-1-lb.html but then looked at the 5 lb. Specialty Brick Cheese at  http://www.widmerscheese.com/products/Vac-Pack-Whole-Mild-Specialty-Brick-5-lb.html and that brick cheese looks yellow, unless that is the type of wrapping they use that makes it look yellow. The 1 lb. Mild Specialty Brick sure looks white to my eyes.  He said the closest distributors to my area would be Euro USA in Cleveland, Ohio or also Euro USA in Sterling, Virginia.  Joe said I could check with either distributor to see if they might deliver in my area.  Joes also said I could buy direct from Widmer Cheese and they would ship to me.  If anyone want clarification on if the mild brick cheese is yellow, Joe gave me a direct toll-free number to him.  If anyone has any other questions about the Widmerís brick cheeses I can also call Joe.  I donít know if anyone thinks I should try to get samples of the brick cheeses to try on my Detroit-style pizzas. 

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #559 on: November 29, 2012, 09:25:27 AM »
Norma,

I really donít know how to do tests on the Buddyís sauce but it tasted really good and fresh.  I would have thought it also was a Stanislaus tomato product.  As you probably know I do use Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce.  I really canít tell if it was Saporito Super Heavy with water added, but donít really think so because of those tiny bits of what looked like ground-up skins of tomatoes.  Does The Full Red with basil have those kind of tomatoes peel pieces in them?  I think I did use Full Red with basil at one time, but donít recall those little pieces of whatever it was in the sauce.  I really couldnít taste a lot garlic in Buddyís sauce, but then I really taste it that much in mine either.


Did you note whether there were any basil leaves in the sauce on the Buddy's pizza, and did you note any bits of skin in that sauce? The reason I ask is because Buddy's offers two sauce choices for its square pizzas. One is called the Original and the other is called a Tomato Basil Sauce. I tend not to think that Buddy's adds the basil leaves to its sauce but rather it comes that way from its supplier. I wondered whether the sauce that you got in the small container was the Tomato Basil Sauce rather than the Original sauce, which may not have any basil leaves in it. The distinction is important since it would dictate the tomato products Buddy's gets from its supplier. For example, if you look at the "from scratch" tomato products from Stanislaus Products at http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/products/real-italian-products/from-scratch-products, you will find some products that do have bits of skin in them, such as the 7/11 Ground Tomatoes and the Full Red Pizza Sauce (known in some areas as Full Red Concentrated Crushed). The latter product can also include basil leaves if desired. The descriptions for the Saporito and SuperDolce products do not make any reference to bits of skin in those products. The puree tomato products do not include any skin (or seeds).

Donít you think that the before Buddyís cheese and pepperoni pizza weight was even a little low, in comparison to my final bake weights of the clones I have been attempting?
 
Yes, I do, but unfortunately there is no way to calculate the full extent of the losses during baking because some of those losses took place during the partial baking of the Buddy's pizza. The "before" and "after" weights you provided suggest a loss during the final bake of 3.34%. If we assume that your "half baked" pizza sustained a similar loss during the partial baking, that would take us to 6.68%. If I used that number and worked backwards to a pre-baked weight, and used the standard amounts for cheese, pepperoni and sauce, the dough ball weight would be somewhere around 6 ounces. We know that can't be right. That said, I'd still like to see how a Buddy's emergency clone pizza using 9 ounces of dough turns out when baked in your deck oven at market with the standard amounts of brick cheese (or one of your blends), pepperoni and sauce.

Peter