Author Topic: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 257618 times)

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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #550 on: November 28, 2012, 11:27:17 PM »
Like I said. I was just asking.
Hey, anytime Craig...always happy to help out with any inquiries you may have.  :chef:
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #551 on: November 28, 2012, 11:31:48 PM »
I have never had a Buddy's, but I can guarantee you that the only DS I have had is not marinara and contains no oil.

Not that I consider Wiki to be more than half-ass reliable, but it makes no mention of oil and follows pretty much along with my recipe(s):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marinara_sauce
I'll see your wiki an raise you one.... ;D

Detroit-style pizza
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Detroit-style pizza is a style of pizza developed in Detroit, Michigan. It is a square pizza similar to Sicilian-style pizza that has a thick deep-dish crisp crust and toppings such as pepperoni and olives and is served with the marinara sauce on top.[1][2] The square shaped pizza is the result of being baked in a square pan, which is often not a pizza pan.[3] Rather, industrial parts trays are often used, which were originally made to hold small parts in factories.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit-style_pizza
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Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #552 on: November 28, 2012, 11:33:52 PM »
I don't see anything about oil in the marinara on there.  I have only had 2 versions of DS, and neither has marinara or oil in the sauce (one was my own).

Offline Ev

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #553 on: November 28, 2012, 11:35:48 PM »
I did not get the impression that there was any oil in the sauce, rather, it seems to be a watered down product of a finely ground tomato with basil, to which has been added a blend of salt, a little sugar, a little oregano, a little garlic and maybe a little black pepper. The sauce, by itself, tasted fresh and fairly balanced between salty and sweet, but maybe a tad salt heavy. Everything else, you had to look for.
 The cheese was very mild and had a chewy texture. I noticed that it was crumbled rather than shredded. It did char well on the edge though, combining with the oil in the pan and take on a little more flavor.
 The pepperoni, I found to be very interesting. I ate a slice by itself and thought it tasted very "meaty", and not until I swallowed did I get any of the familiar pepperoni "spice" flavor. And then, it seemed to linger longer than usual in the back of my mouth.
 The crust was crispy on the bottom and gummy on the top, especially, as you might imagine, under the sauce. I've always kind of liked the contrast and blend of crispy/gummy, so this didn't bother me at all. It's quite possible, I should think, that this is more pronounced in a frozen mail order, thawed and re-baked pizza, as opposed to a fresh pie at the restaurant.  At one point I isolated a portion of the crumb from pretty much everything else and found it to have not much flavor at all.
I think that the strength of the pie lies in the whole rather than the sum of it's ingredients, with each element becoming stronger as it bonds with the next.
 All in all, I did enjoy the pizza. If there was a Buddys in my town, I'd buy their pizza once in a while for sure, but having said that, I'd rather have Norma's version of Buddys pizza, and I mean that! Her crust has more complexity, her sauce is great, and I really like the different cheese combinations she has been using.

 Thank you Norma for inviting me to share your Buddy's pizza! What fun to have a friend like you, so passionate and willing to try anything and share all that you have learned! I'm lucky to know you! ;D

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #554 on: November 29, 2012, 12:10:25 AM »
Detroit-style pizza is a style of pizza developed in Detroit, Michigan. It is a square pizza similar to Sicilian-style pizza that has a thick deep-dish crisp crust and toppings such as pepperoni and olives and is served with the marinara sauce on top.[1][2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit-style_pizza

It's interesting that neither of the links (1,2) that wiki cited actually used the word "maranara."

I don't see where Buddy's, Shield's, or Detroit use the word "maranara" for their pizza either.
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #555 on: November 29, 2012, 07:35:36 AM »
Norma,

Thanks to you and Steve for collecting all of the data on your Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza and giving us your assessment and opinions on the pizza. I will confess that I am often skeptical of claims that pizza operators make about the quality of their mail order pizzas. As I was awaiting your report, I was reminded of the experience that member DKM once had when he ordered and baked two frozen deep-dish pizzas that he had purchased from Malnati's. It took me a while to find his report but it is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,571.0.html. It looks like you had better results than DKM had with his frozen Malnati's pizzas. Yet your pizza did not appear to be identical to a freshly baked cheese and pepperoni pizza as sold in Buddy's store based on the photos I have seen of Buddy's pizzas. I don't mean this as a criticism. It is what it is.

I agree with you that Buddy's sent you more of the sauce than they use in their stores for the 4-square pizza. It might fit their 8-square pizza better. However, you at least have a sample in case you want to analyze it or conduct tests on it at some future date. My understanding has always been that Buddy's uses a Stanislaus tomato product of some sort. That aside, I have not found much in my searches on the makeup of the Buddy's sauce but I do recall that tasters mentioned oregano and a hint of garlic. Seeing the basil leaves in the sauce in the YouTube video you prepared, I might add that the Stanislaus tomato products that include basil leaves include the Full Red with Fresh Basil (http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/_pdfs/Full-Red-Pizza-Sauce-w-Fresh-Basil.pdf), the Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce (http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/_pdfs/Saporito-Pizza-Sauce-w-Fresh-Basil.pdf), and the SuperDolce (http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/_pdfs/Super-Dolce-Pizza-Sauce.pdf). I do not recall that the Buddy's sauce is super sweet, which might rule out the SuperDolce. My recollection is that Buddy's has an herb/spice blend for its sauce and, according to lufty, the former Buddy's employee, the Buddy's pizza sauce is a watered down sauce (Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795). By any chance, did you see any basil leaves in the sauce on the pizza itself?

With respect to the cheese, I can't say that I am surprised that it did not appear that there was 8 ounces on the pizza you received. It's not clear whether all of the pizza assemblers at Buddy's use portioning cups or just free throw the cheese onto the pizza, but in either case, the amount of cheese can vary from one pizza to another. You might also remember that in one of the exchanges that I had with Buddy's I was told that there are variations on the items that go on their pizzas because they are using volume measurements rather than weights. From the photos, it also looks like the Buddy's cheese is diced rather than shredded. Was that your observation also?

It is also good that you were able to confirm that, to the best of your knowledge, there was only one type of cheese used on the pizza you received. To the extent there was a mystery on that point, it appears that it has been resolved. If that is in fact so, then I think it is safe to say that the cheese is brick cheese.

The pepperoni slices appear to be in the ballpark in terms of diameter but a bit light in the weight department when compared with the data you previously received on the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni. No doubt there were some losses in weight due to oiling off during baking and maybe a small amount of shrinkage. In any event, I can't say that we can rule out the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni as the product that Buddy's uses on its pizzas with pepperoni. By any chance, were you able to determine how many pepperoni slices were used in the pizza you received?

Like you, I noticed that the difference between the "before" and "after" weighs of the pizza was not large. However, it should be remembered that there would have been some losses during the partial baking of the pizza. We will never know what those losses were.

On the matter of the crumb and its relationship to the hydration of the dough, it is hard to know what to make of the tighter crumb of the Buddy's pizza you received since the pizza was partially baked and then frozen, making it hard to say whether those two steps had an effect on the crumb.

When I read your comment on the air bubbles at the bottom crust and that the bottom crust was not especially flat, I was reminded that Tom Lehmann was once asked about that over at the PMQ Think Tank. I did a search of that forum and found two questions on that point, one at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=75816#p75816 and the other at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=49630#p49630. I don't believe that Tom ever responded to the first questioner but he did answer the second questioner at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=49641#p49641. Interestingly, Tom blamed shortening for the cratering problem, not oil, which is what the first questioner used. I was also intrigued by the first questioner's post (at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=75816#p75816) since it described a Detroit style dough that has similarities to the Detroit style doughs we have been studying and researching for some time. It was also the first time that I read of someone using the Lloyd anodized pans (most likely a Sicilian pan rather than one of their Detroit style pans, based on the size) to make the questioner's Detroit style pizza.

I'm glad that both you and Steve enjoyed the pizza. But what I'd really like to know is how you (and Steve, if he wishes to opine on the matter) would compare the Buddy's clone pizzas you have been making with the Buddy's pizza you and Steve ate. And did you learn anything from the Buddy'a pizza that would give you cause to change anything you have been doing to arrive at a credible Buddy's clone dough or pizza?

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for the link to where DKM once had ordered and baked two frozen deep-dish Malnati’s pizzas.  He sure fared worse than I did in mail ordering a Buddy’s pizza.  If I would have seen that report I might not have purchased a Buddy’s pizza by phone for mail order shipping.

I have no idea if the way we did the final bake affected the Buddy’s clone in how it finished baking.  I should have tried the way they recommended on the instructions for a Half-Baked Pizza that I received with Buddy‘s pizza.  I didn’t want the crumb to become too dry and at first I was just going to do the final bake on my one black pan that is just a pizza pan for the oven.  After Steve and I talked it over we decided that way might make the crumb too dry if the final bake time would get to 15 minutes.  That is the reason we finished baking Buddy’s pizza in the steel pan.  I am not sure if our method of doing the final baked gave the gum line or not.   I really don’t know if that affected how the pizza looked either, but it could have affected how the cheese looked.

I really don’t know how to do tests on the Buddy’s sauce but it tasted really good and fresh.  I would have thought it also was a Stanislaus tomato product.  As you probably know I do use Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce.  I really can’t tell if it was Saporito Super Heavy with water added, but don’t really think so because of those tiny bits of what looked like ground-up skins of tomatoes.  Does The Full Red with basil have those kind of tomatoes peel pieces in them?  I think I did use Full Red with basil at one time, but don’t recall those little pieces of whatever it was in the sauce.  I really couldn’t taste a lot garlic in Buddy’s sauce, but then I really taste it that much in mine either.   I think I am becoming too accustomed to tasting garlic, because I do use a lot of fresh garlic in my regular cooking.  I think I use more garlic than most people.  I can taste Buddy’s sauce again if you want me too to see if I can pick-up any other tastes.   

Yes, it was my observation that the Buddy’s cheese was diced rather than shredded.  Steve really gave the Buddy’s pizza a through looking over before we did the final bake and he also did agree that the cheese did look diced. 

With respect to the pepperoni slices they could have lost some weight in the initial bake at Buddy’s.  They sure weren’t really baked when we took them off the pizza though.  Steve just dug off the corner slices of pepperoni and we really didn’t want to disturb the whole Buddy’s pizza so I really don’t know how many slices there were on the pie.

I can only hope I am right that it only brick cheese used on Buddy’s pizza.  I haven’t tried that many brick cheeses, but in my opinion right now it was brick cheese.  To try and explain a little better all of the mozzarellas I have tried do have a little salt taste in them and out of the two I normally use one tastes better if eaten without baking, but nothing bland like the cheese on Buddy‘s pizza.  Of course they are foodservice mozzarellas.  Steve and I each took a little piece of the cheese off after weighing the Buddy’s pizza, but before the final bake.  We both thought the cheese tasted rather bland without any salt.  That is one reason I think it is brick cheese.  There was no cheddar taste that Steve or I could detect.  I never tasted a cheese like Buddy’s uses and was surprised how long it took it to melt at all.  I am not a cheese expert though, so I could be wrong on everything. 

I did find Tom’s comment about using shortening interesting in reference to the air bubbles on the bottom crust.  On Tuesday I did use Canola oil and still had those air bubbles on my second pizza.  As you know I did try MFB shortening in some of my Buddy’s attempts and some of them still have the air bubbles and some of them did not.  I find it intriguing what might cause those air bubbles.  pizzaboyjohn’s formulation for a Detroit-style pizza sounds very similar to what I am using with about the same hydration, but with he used sugar in his dough.   


Don’t you think that the before Buddy’s cheese and pepperoni pizza weight was even a little low, in comparison to my final bake weights of the clones I have been attempting? 

I don’t know what was wrong with my internet explorer last evening, but sometimes it did let me look at the internet last evening and sometimes it didn’t.  I tried to quote and post this reply and a reply to Craig’s post last evening, but for some reason it I couldn’t do it.  I couldn’t even look at the links from Tom Lehmann.  I finally gave up last evening.

I really don’t want to give to much of any opinions on how I liked the Buddy’s clone in comparison to what I have been attempting, but will say I like the crumb structure better in my attempts.  I don’t really want to butt heads with what is supposed to be the number 1 pizza in the country right now according to some reports and I haven’t tasted a freshly baked Buddy’s pizza.  I would purchase Buddy’s pizza if they were closer to me though.

I also forgot to post before in my initial report that the really good caramelization wasn’t there on the real Buddy’s pizza after the final baked.  It sure looked like it was there, but I couldn’t taste it and it wasn‘t that nice crunchy wonderful taste.  I thought that was strange too, but maybe from the shrinkage of the initial half-bake the sides with the cheese didn’t get that crunchiness. 

I don’t think I will change anything right now in my attempt to make a Detroit-style pizza.  I just want to try to get consistent results all the time.  My Buddy’s attempts really aren't clones, but are close enough for me.  On Tuesday market was really slow for all stand holders because of the snow, hunting season in our area and because it was a week right after a holiday.  It was interesting that 3 customers came back to purchase the Buddy’s clones I am trying out for market.  I had only eaten one slice out of the two test pizzas, so I did sell the customers slices.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #556 on: November 29, 2012, 07:45:30 AM »
In the pictures, it looks like the sauce has some oil in it?

Craig,

I couldn’t detect any oil in Buddy’s sauce, by looking at it or tasting it. 

I don’t know if you ever have seen what I use in my market sauce though.  I do use olive oil with fresh crushed garlic, Italian seasoning, oregano and few ground red peppers which are microwaved first.  I then can’t detect any oil in my sauce.  I only use about 2 teaspoons of the mixture for a big can of Saporito.  I was given my recipe for sauce by a pizza business owner in my area.  The Saporito sauce I use needs added water and if you look at pictures of the sauce just applied on some of my pizzas I don’t think you would be able to see that I use oil in my market sauce.

Norma


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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #557 on: November 29, 2012, 07:53:05 AM »
Bob is correct that there are places--and not only limited to the wikipedia article--that say that marinara sauce is used on Detroit style pizzas. However, like Craig, I have never found any evidence that any of the majors specializing in the Detroit style pizza, including Buddy's, Shield's, Loui's and Cloverleaf/Detroit Style Pizza Co, has ever stated that it uses a marinara sauce. Craig is also correct that the footnotes to the wikepedia article do not mention marinara sauce as the sauce used for the Detroit style pizza (I went down that dead end long ago). If any of the above companies ever said that they used marinara sauce for their Detroit style pizzas, that would have jumped out at me like a bolt out of the blue because it would have been an important revelation.

In Buddy's case, it does offer a marinara sauce (see a typical Buddy's menu at http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/Carryout101.pdf). But it is for its pasta dishes, not for its pizzas and, as such, I assume that the marinara sauce is a cooked sauce. For its square pizzas, Buddy's only offers two sauces, the Original sauce and a Tomato Basil Sauce. They go on the pizzas last but prior to baking. By contrast, the Detroit Style Pizza Co apparently puts the sauce down after baking (http://detroit.ourcityradio.com/food-and-drink/world-champion-pizza-maker-to-launch-detroit-style-pizza-co). Via 313 also puts down the sauce after baking. What is not clear in the case of the Detroit Style Pizza Co is whether the sauce is cooked. What has been previously reported is that Cloverleaf Pizza, which is owned by the Detroit Style Pizza Co, uses a simmered sauce, as was noted in the Slice article at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/03/united-states-of-pizza-michigan-best-pizza-in-detroit-ann-arbor-upper-peninsula-flint.html. I have not been able to substantiate Ms. Rector's statement in the Slice article on the simmered sauce. However, we do know that Via 313's sauce is not a cooked sauce.

As for the use of oil in the Detroit style pizza sauces, I have not read anything to that effect. If Buddy's is using oil in its sauce, it most likely would be in a sauce as received from its supplier, such as Stanislaus. All we know about Buddy's sauce, other than some occasional references to the seasonings, is what a former Buddy's employee, lufty, reported in the quoted material in Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #558 on: November 29, 2012, 09:11:51 AM »
I received a return call from Joe Widmer yesterday while I was at the supermarket.  He left a message on my land line answering machine, but I didn’t find time to post about Joe’s call yesterday.  Joe said they do carry two brick cheeses.  The one is the stinky kind of brick cheese that has a powerful flavor and is packaged in a foil package.  Joe said the other brick cheese is very mild and is yellow.  After Joe said the mild brick cheese is yellow, I looked at the 1 lb. of Specialty brick cheese on Widmer’s website at  http://www.widmerscheese.com/products/Vac-Pack-Mild-Specialty-Brick-1-lb.html but then looked at the 5 lb. Specialty Brick Cheese at  http://www.widmerscheese.com/products/Vac-Pack-Whole-Mild-Specialty-Brick-5-lb.html and that brick cheese looks yellow, unless that is the type of wrapping they use that makes it look yellow. The 1 lb. Mild Specialty Brick sure looks white to my eyes.  He said the closest distributors to my area would be Euro USA in Cleveland, Ohio or also Euro USA in Sterling, Virginia.  Joe said I could check with either distributor to see if they might deliver in my area.  Joes also said I could buy direct from Widmer Cheese and they would ship to me.  If anyone want clarification on if the mild brick cheese is yellow, Joe gave me a direct toll-free number to him.  If anyone has any other questions about the Widmer’s brick cheeses I can also call Joe.  I don’t know if anyone thinks I should try to get samples of the brick cheeses to try on my Detroit-style pizzas. 

Norma


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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #559 on: November 29, 2012, 09:25:27 AM »
Norma,

I really don’t know how to do tests on the Buddy’s sauce but it tasted really good and fresh.  I would have thought it also was a Stanislaus tomato product.  As you probably know I do use Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce.  I really can’t tell if it was Saporito Super Heavy with water added, but don’t really think so because of those tiny bits of what looked like ground-up skins of tomatoes.  Does The Full Red with basil have those kind of tomatoes peel pieces in them?  I think I did use Full Red with basil at one time, but don’t recall those little pieces of whatever it was in the sauce.  I really couldn’t taste a lot garlic in Buddy’s sauce, but then I really taste it that much in mine either.

Did you note whether there were any basil leaves in the sauce on the Buddy's pizza, and did you note any bits of skin in that sauce? The reason I ask is because Buddy's offers two sauce choices for its square pizzas. One is called the Original and the other is called a Tomato Basil Sauce. I tend not to think that Buddy's adds the basil leaves to its sauce but rather it comes that way from its supplier. I wondered whether the sauce that you got in the small container was the Tomato Basil Sauce rather than the Original sauce, which may not have any basil leaves in it. The distinction is important since it would dictate the tomato products Buddy's gets from its supplier. For example, if you look at the "from scratch" tomato products from Stanislaus Products at http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/products/real-italian-products/from-scratch-products, you will find some products that do have bits of skin in them, such as the 7/11 Ground Tomatoes and the Full Red Pizza Sauce (known in some areas as Full Red Concentrated Crushed). The latter product can also include basil leaves if desired. The descriptions for the Saporito and SuperDolce products do not make any reference to bits of skin in those products. The puree tomato products do not include any skin (or seeds).

Don’t you think that the before Buddy’s cheese and pepperoni pizza weight was even a little low, in comparison to my final bake weights of the clones I have been attempting?
 
Yes, I do, but unfortunately there is no way to calculate the full extent of the losses during baking because some of those losses took place during the partial baking of the Buddy's pizza. The "before" and "after" weights you provided suggest a loss during the final bake of 3.34%. If we assume that your "half baked" pizza sustained a similar loss during the partial baking, that would take us to 6.68%. If I used that number and worked backwards to a pre-baked weight, and used the standard amounts for cheese, pepperoni and sauce, the dough ball weight would be somewhere around 6 ounces. We know that can't be right. That said, I'd still like to see how a Buddy's emergency clone pizza using 9 ounces of dough turns out when baked in your deck oven at market with the standard amounts of brick cheese (or one of your blends), pepperoni and sauce.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #560 on: November 29, 2012, 10:18:47 AM »
Joe said the other brick cheese is very mild and is yellow.  After Joe said the mild brick cheese is yellow, I looked at the 1 lb. of Specialty brick cheese on Widmer’s website at  http://www.widmerscheese.com/products/Vac-Pack-Mild-Specialty-Brick-1-lb.html but then looked at the 5 lb. Specialty Brick Cheese at  http://www.widmerscheese.com/products/Vac-Pack-Whole-Mild-Specialty-Brick-5-lb.html and that brick cheese looks yellow, unless that is the type of wrapping they use that makes it look yellow. The 1 lb. Mild Specialty Brick sure looks white to my eyes.
 
Norma,

I’m guessing it is that very pale yellow that you see in some softer, higher fat cheeses. I’d bet it’s not very yellow. You and I probably wouldn’t call it yellow if we saw it in person. He probably meant it’s not pure white like some cheddars. Just a guess.


Did you note whether there were any basil leaves in the sauce on the Buddy's pizza, and did you note any bits of skin in that sauce? The reason I ask is because Buddy's offers two sauce choices for its square pizzas. One is called the Original and the other is called a Tomato Basil Sauce. I tend not to think that Buddy's adds the basil leaves to its sauce but rather it comes that way from its supplier. I wondered whether the sauce that you got in the small container was the Tomato Basil Sauce rather than the Original sauce, which may not have any basil leaves in it. The distinction is important since it would dictate the tomato products Buddy's gets from its supplier. For example, if you look at the "from scratch" tomato products from Stanislaus Products at http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/products/real-italian-products/from-scratch-products, you will find some products that do have bits of skin in them, such as the 7/11 Ground Tomatoes and the Full Red Pizza Sauce (known in some areas as Full Red Concentrated Crushed). The latter product can also include basil leaves if desired. The descriptions for the Saporito and SuperDolce products do not make any reference to bits of skin in those products. The puree tomato products do not include any skin (or seeds).
Peter,

There is an FDA standard of identity for tomato puree, pulp, paste, and concentrate (21 CFR 155.919). These products are not supposed to contain skin or seeds. There is no standard of identity for crushed or ground tomatoes (or pizza sauce) which is why they often, but not always, contains skin and seeds and can vary so much from manufacturer to manufacturer. I’m probably not telling you anything that you didn’t already know.

It strikes me as more than a little disingenuous when Stanislaus writes “made without skin or seeds” with respect to their puree. It also strengthens my suspicion that the “trace of skin and seeds” in the pizza sauce is more about cost than “homemade appearance.”

Craig
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #561 on: November 29, 2012, 10:23:41 AM »
Norma,

Did you note whether there were any basil leaves in the sauce on the Buddy's pizza, and did you note any bits of skin in that sauce? The reason I ask is because Buddy's offers two sauce choices for its square pizzas. One is called the Original and the other is called a Tomato Basil Sauce. I tend not to think that Buddy's adds the basil leaves to its sauce but rather it comes that way from its supplier. I wondered whether the sauce that you got in the small container was the Tomato Basil Sauce rather than the Original sauce, which may not have any basil leaves in it. The distinction is important since it would dictate the tomato products Buddy's gets from its supplier. For example, if you look at the "from scratch" tomato products from Stanislaus Products at http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/products/real-italian-products/from-scratch-products, you will find some products that do have bits of skin in them, such as the 7/11 Ground Tomatoes and the Full Red Pizza Sauce (known in some areas as Full Red Concentrated Crushed). The latter product can also include basil leaves if desired. The descriptions for the Saporito and SuperDolce products do not make any reference to bits of skin in those products. The puree tomato products do not include any skin (or seeds).
 
Yes, I do, but unfortunately there is no way to calculate the full extent of the losses during baking because some of those losses took place during the partial baking of the Buddy's pizza. The "before" and "after" weights you provided suggest a loss during the final bake of 3.34%. If we assume that your "half baked" pizza sustained a similar loss during the partial baking, that would take us to 6.68%. If I used that number and worked backwards to a pre-baked weight, and used the standard amounts for cheese, pepperoni and sauce, the dough ball weight would be somewhere around 6 ounces. We know that can't be right. That said, I'd still like to see how a Buddy's emergency clone pizza using 9 ounces of dough turns out when baked in your deck oven at market with the standard amounts of brick cheese (or one of your blends), pepperoni and sauce.

Peter

Peter,

If you look at second, third and fourth pictures I posted at Reply 526 it looked to me like that was a part basil leaf on the Buddy’s pizza.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg225586.html#msg225586  I didn’t think about it at the time, but should have taken it off and tasted it to see if it really was basil or something else.

Whatever it was it also can be seen in the second picture at Reply 529 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg225589.html#msg225589   There is no way now that I can now investiage what it was.  No, I didn’t notice any bits of skin in the sauce in the Buddy‘s pizza.  I believe you are right that the extra sauce Buddy’s gave me was the Tomato Basil sauce.  Thanks for the links to the Stanislaus Products.  When Steve and I tasted the extra sauce it really had a great taste, but I sure don’t recall the sauce on the Buddy’s pizza having that same great taste, but just thought the taste changed somehow after the pizza had the final bake.  I didn’t think about it yesterday, but Steve and I could have scratched some of the sauce off of the Buddy’s pizza and tasted it before the final bake.  I can email Buddy’s to ask if the extra sauce was the same as used on a regular 4-square pizza if you want me to.  I have the email address to Dennis.

I can understand there can be no way to work back to what happened with weight losses in Buddy’s pizza.  I still have some of the Eddie’s brick cheese and can try an emergency dough using 9 ounces of dough with the standard amounts of brick cheese, pepperoni and sauce.  Do you mean that I would make the emergency dough in the morning before I go to market with 0.80% IDY?

I also wanted to post that I wrote Bobby at Armour-Eckrich Meat another email this morning.  I have not heard from Mike that was on vacation last week.  I just asked if there was any way I could obtain a small sample of the coarse grind pepperoni before I keep trying to find distributors in my area.  At least if I had a sample of the coarse grind pepperoni I could try it on my clone attempts and be able to weigh it more.

This is what Bobby replied to me in an email.

Hi Norma, Mike is back and catching up. The quickest way to get you a sample bag is thru the local broker in Philly. Unfortunatley, I do not have that contact number. I will get with Mike to see if he can expedite this project.

Sorry for the delay.
Bobby Koch

Norma

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #562 on: November 29, 2012, 10:30:05 AM »
Norma,

I’m guessing it is that very pale yellow that you see in some softer, higher fat cheeses. I’d bet it’s not very yellow. You and I probably wouldn’t call it yellow if we saw it in person. He probably meant it’s not pure white like some cheddars. Just a guess.


Craig


Craig,

I believe you are right about the Widmer brick cheese.  I will call Joe for clarification to see if the Widmer's mild brick cheese is truly yellow.

Norma

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #563 on: November 29, 2012, 10:44:22 AM »
This is what Bobby replied to me in an email.

Hi Norma, Mike is back and catching up. The quickest way to get you a sample bag is thru the local broker in Philly. Unfortunatley, I do not have that contact number. I will get with Mike to see if he can expedite this project.

Norma, I worked for a foodservice brokerage for years. He's right that for manufacturers that use brokers (as opposed to a dedicated sales force), the best way to get samples or information is through the broker. Foodservice brokers typically have people that all they do all day is run around and deliver samples.

People are expensive, and nowadays, most manufacturers use brokers because it is often more cost effective than hiring their own sales force (Hormel, where I also worked, is a notable exception). As such, they typically don't have the resoures to deal with consumer questions and needs directly because they have outsourced that capacity to the brokers.

Craig
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #564 on: November 29, 2012, 10:57:40 AM »
Norma, I worked for a foodservice brokerage for years. He's right that for manufacturers that use brokers (as opposed to a dedicated sales force), the best way to get samples or information is through the broker. Foodservice brokers typically have people that all they do all day is run around and deliver samples.

People are expensive, and nowadays, most manufacturers use brokers because it is often more cost effective than hiring their own sales force (Hormel, where I also worked, is a notable exception). As such, they typically don't have the resoures to deal with consumer questions and needs directly because they have outsourced that capacity to the brokers.

Craig



Craig,

Thanks for telling me about you working for a foodservice brokerage for years and what happens, how that works and that the best way to get samples or information is through the broker.  I learn a lot from you.  ;D 

Norma

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #565 on: November 29, 2012, 10:58:40 AM »
I don't see where Buddy's, Shield's, or Detroit use the word "maranara" for their pizza either.
I think the misspelling is some Detroit thing - the Via313 menu uses it and I emailed them a long time ago about the "mistake" but they never responded or changed the menu.

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #566 on: November 29, 2012, 11:01:50 AM »
Norma,

If you look at second, third and fourth pictures I posted at Reply 526 it looked to me like that was a part basil leaf on the Buddy’s pizza.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg225586.html#msg225586  I didn’t think about it at the time, but should have taken it off and tasted it to see if it really was basil or something else.

Whatever it was it also can be seen in the second picture at Reply 529 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg225589.html#msg225589   There is no way now that I can now investiage what it was.

I saw the fleck of whatever it was. I thought that it might have been a dried herb in the seasoning that Buddy's uses in making the sauce.

No, I didn’t notice any bits of skin in the sauce in the Buddy‘s pizza.  I believe you are right that the extra sauce Buddy’s gave me was the Tomato Basil sauce.  Thanks for the links to the Stanislaus Products.  When Steve and I tasted the extra sauce it really had a great taste, but I sure don’t recall the sauce on the Buddy’s pizza having that same great taste, but just thought the taste changed somehow after the pizza had the final bake.  I didn’t think about it yesterday, but Steve and I could have scratched some of the sauce off of the Buddy’s pizza and tasted it before the final bake.  I can email Buddy’s to ask if the extra sauce was the same as used on a regular 4-square pizza if you want me to.  I have the email address to Dennis.

If you don't mind, I'd be interested in what Dennis might tell you, if he remembers what sauce he sent you. However, as I previously noted, and as is stated on the Buddy's menus, customers have a choice between the Original sauce and the Tomato Basil sauce. You might ask Dennis what the difference is between the two sauces. 

I can understand there can be no way to work back to what happened with weight losses in Buddy’s pizza.  I still have some of the Eddie’s brick cheese and can try an emergency dough using 9 ounces of dough with the standard amounts of brick cheese, pepperoni and sauce.  Do you mean that I would make the emergency dough in the morning before I go to market with 0.80% IDY?

That is what I was thinking if it is doable without messing up your schedule at market. As you have indicated, you have not seen a major difference between the emergency Buddy's clones and the non-emergency versions. If so, then you might find that an emergency version might be the one to use at market as the standard. It might not be based on a 9-ounce dough ball but some other weight. The 9-ounce dough ball test might tell us whether that is a viable weight.

I also wanted to post that I wrote Bobby at Armour-Eckrich Meat another email this morning.  I have not heard from Mike that was on vacation last week.  I just asked if there was any way I could obtain a small sample of the coarse grind pepperoni before I keep trying to find distributors in my area.  At least if I had a sample of the coarse grind pepperoni I could try it on my clone attempts and be able to weigh it more.
That would be great if you can swing it. Having the sample might also help you confirm whether you had the Margherita pepperoni on your Buddy's pizza. And maybe you will like it well enough to consider using it if the pricing is right and is readily available to you.

Peter


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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #567 on: November 29, 2012, 11:39:12 AM »
Norma,

I saw the fleck of whatever it was. I thought that it might have been a dried herb in the seasoning that Buddy's uses in making the sauce.

If you don't mind, I'd be interested in what Dennis might tell you, if he remembers what sauce he sent you. However, as I previously noted, and as is stated on the Buddy's menus, customers have a choice between the Original sauce and the Tomato Basil sauce. You might ask Dennis what the difference is between the two sauces. 

That is what I was thinking if it is doable without messing up your schedule at market. As you have indicated, you have not seen a major difference between the emergency Buddy's clones and the non-emergency versions. If so, then you might find that an emergency version might be the one to use at market as the standard. It might not be based on a 9-ounce dough ball but some other weight. The 9-ounce dough ball test might tell us whether that is a viable weight.
That would be great if you can swing it. Having the sample might also help you confirm whether you had the Margherita pepperoni on your Buddy's pizza. And maybe you will like it well enough to consider using it if the pricing is right and is readily available to you.

Peter


Peter,

I wish I would have investigated the fleck more, but I didn’t.  I will email Dennis later today and see if he remembers what sauce he sent me.  I will also ask Dennis what the difference is between the Original Sauce and the Tomato Basil sauce.

I know I posted I have not seen any major difference in using an emergency Buddy’s dough and a non-emergency one.  Do you mean I would have to make the emergency dough at market each Tuesday morning or have frozen emergency doughs ready.  I think trying to mix emergency doughs in the morning at market would give me too many more dishes to wash and put away and also I would have to get earlier in the morning.  Don’t forget I am getting old and the day is long at market as it is.  I will use a 9 ounce dough for the emergency dough.  Does it matter if it is frozen, or should I make the emergency dough fresh on Tuesday morning?

Hopefully I can obtain a sample of the coarse grind pepperoni.  I will work on doing that.

Norma

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #568 on: November 29, 2012, 11:42:09 AM »
If anyone is interested I just spoke to Joe Widmer again.  He is going to send me samples of both brick cheeses to try.  I also asked about if the mild brick cheese is really a yellow color and he said no, but the mild brick cheese does have a slightly yellow color.  Joe said his grandmother preferred the stronger brick cheese on her pizzas.

Norma

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #569 on: November 29, 2012, 12:49:03 PM »
I know I posted I have not seen any major difference in using an emergency Buddy’s dough and a non-emergency one.  Do you mean I would have to make the emergency dough at market each Tuesday morning or have frozen emergency doughs ready.  I think trying to mix emergency doughs in the morning at market would give me too many more dishes to wash and put away and also I would have to get earlier in the morning.  Don’t forget I am getting old and the day is long at market as it is.  I will use a 9 ounce dough for the emergency dough.  Does it matter if it is frozen, or should I make the emergency dough fresh on Tuesday morning?

Norma,

Now I better understand what you are saying. Since the 9-ounce dough ball test is mainly to determine whether that is an amount that works, and maybe is close to what Buddy's is using, I think you can go with a frozen emergency dough version. I assume that you would make and freeze the test dough ball at home and let it thaw out on Monday at market for use on Tuesday. Is that correct?

If you end up selling your Detroit style clone pizzas at market, are you thinking of a one-day cold ferment version of the dough that is made at market on Monday for use on Tuesday?

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #570 on: November 29, 2012, 01:12:06 PM »
I think the misspelling is some Detroit thing - the Via313 menu uses it and I emailed them a long time ago about the "mistake" but they never responded or changed the menu.

Via313 uses "Marinara" as a type of pizza (and it is now spelled correctly), they just say "fresh crushed tomato" for the actual sauce.

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #571 on: November 29, 2012, 02:24:45 PM »
Norma,

Now I better understand what you are saying. Since the 9-ounce dough ball test is mainly to determine whether that is an amount that works, and maybe is close to what Buddy's is using, I think you can go with a frozen emergency dough version. I assume that you would make and freeze the test dough ball at home and let it thaw out on Monday at market for use on Tuesday. Is that correct?

If you end up selling your Detroit style clone pizzas at market, are you thinking of a one-day cold ferment version of the dough that is made at market on Monday for use on Tuesday?

Peter




Peter,

I know the 9 ounce dough ball is only to test to see if that amount works.  You are correct that I will make that one dough ball at home and then take it to market thaw on Monday.  I could also make a quick emergency dough ball at home Tuesday morning if you want me to.   

I am thinking along the lines of doing a one-day cold ferment version of the dough that is made on market on Monday and used on Tuesday if the my customers like the Detroit-style pizzas   That would fall right in line with my NY style dough making now.   

Norma

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #572 on: November 29, 2012, 02:28:29 PM »
Via313 uses "Marinara" as a type of pizza (and it is now spelled correctly), they just say "fresh crushed tomato" for the actual sauce.

Tom,

Thanks for posting that.  Did you ever try Via 313 "Marinara" pizza?  It sounds good to me.  :)

Norma

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #573 on: November 29, 2012, 02:45:18 PM »
No, I always get the Detroiter for me or Italian Sausage and onions if I am taking it home because that is what Mama likes.

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #574 on: November 29, 2012, 02:48:03 PM »
I could also make a quick emergency dough ball at home Tuesday morning if you want me to.

Norma,

That would be fine also if you can manage it because it will be more in line with what I believe Buddy's does.

As a related aside, I thought that you might be interested in reading Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13048.msg142525.html#msg142525 over at the steel_baker Victory Pig Style Pizza thread. That post describes some of the factors that are involved in trying to make multiple room temperature dough batches throughout the course of a day while keeping things moving smoothly. In re-reading parts of the Victory Pig thread recently, I couldn't help but notice how many aspects that style of pizza shares with the Detroit style pizza and other pan style pizzas. Yet they all have something that uniquely differentiates them from the next guy's product. With Buddy's, it is the combination of a steel pan with steep sides, a high yeast, high hydration emergency type dough, the brick cheese and the way it forms a crispy dam around the sides of the pan, the placement of pepperoni slices under the cheese and the way that the sauce goes over the cheese in the form of dolloped stripes. And with the 4-square pizza, every slice is a corner slice with a crispy bottom crust yet a soft interior.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 03:14:40 PM by Pete-zza »