Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!

[TXCraig1]

Joe said the other brick cheese is very mild and is yellow.  After Joe said the mild brick cheese is yellow, I looked at the 1 lb. of Specialty brick cheese on Widmer’s website at  http://www.widmerscheese.com/products/Vac-Pack-Mild-Specialty-Brick-1-lb.html but then looked at the 5 lb. Specialty Brick Cheese at  http://www.widmerscheese.com/products/Vac-Pack-Whole-Mild-Specialty-Brick-5-lb.html and that brick cheese looks yellow, unless that is the type of wrapping they use that makes it look yellow. The 1 lb. Mild Specialty Brick sure looks white to my eyes.
 

Norma,

I’m guessing it is that very pale yellow that you see in some softer, higher fat cheeses. I’d bet it’s not very yellow. You and I probably wouldn’t call it yellow if we saw it in person. He probably meant it’s not pure white like some cheddars. Just a guess.

Did you note whether there were any basil leaves in the sauce on the Buddy's pizza, and did you note any bits of skin in that sauce? The reason I ask is because Buddy's offers two sauce choices for its square pizzas. One is called the Original and the other is called a Tomato Basil Sauce. I tend not to think that Buddy's adds the basil leaves to its sauce but rather it comes that way from its supplier. I wondered whether the sauce that you got in the small container was the Tomato Basil Sauce rather than the Original sauce, which may not have any basil leaves in it. The distinction is important since it would dictate the tomato products Buddy's gets from its supplier. For example, if you look at the "from scratch" tomato products from Stanislaus Products at http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/products/real-italian-products/from-scratch-products, you will find some products that do have bits of skin in them, such as the 7/11 Ground Tomatoes and the Full Red Pizza Sauce (known in some areas as Full Red Concentrated Crushed). The latter product can also include basil leaves if desired. The descriptions for the Saporito and SuperDolce products do not make any reference to bits of skin in those products. The puree tomato products do not include any skin (or seeds).

Peter,

There is an FDA standard of identity for tomato puree, pulp, paste, and concentrate (21 CFR 155.919). These products are not supposed to contain skin or seeds. There is no standard of identity for crushed or ground tomatoes (or pizza sauce) which is why they often, but not always, contains skin and seeds and can vary so much from manufacturer to manufacturer. I’m probably not telling you anything that you didn’t already know.

It strikes me as more than a little disingenuous when Stanislaus writes “made without skin or seeds” with respect to their puree. It also strengthens my suspicion that the “trace of skin and seeds” in the pizza sauce is more about cost than “homemade appearance.”

Craig

[norma427]

Norma,

Did you note whether there were any basil leaves in the sauce on the Buddy's pizza, and did you note any bits of skin in that sauce? The reason I ask is because Buddy's offers two sauce choices for its square pizzas. One is called the Original and the other is called a Tomato Basil Sauce. I tend not to think that Buddy's adds the basil leaves to its sauce but rather it comes that way from its supplier. I wondered whether the sauce that you got in the small container was the Tomato Basil Sauce rather than the Original sauce, which may not have any basil leaves in it. The distinction is important since it would dictate the tomato products Buddy's gets from its supplier. For example, if you look at the "from scratch" tomato products from Stanislaus Products at http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/products/real-italian-products/from-scratch-products, you will find some products that do have bits of skin in them, such as the 7/11 Ground Tomatoes and the Full Red Pizza Sauce (known in some areas as Full Red Concentrated Crushed). The latter product can also include basil leaves if desired. The descriptions for the Saporito and SuperDolce products do not make any reference to bits of skin in those products. The puree tomato products do not include any skin (or seeds).
 
Yes, I do, but unfortunately there is no way to calculate the full extent of the losses during baking because some of those losses took place during the partial baking of the Buddy's pizza. The "before" and "after" weights you provided suggest a loss during the final bake of 3.34%. If we assume that your "half baked" pizza sustained a similar loss during the partial baking, that would take us to 6.68%. If I used that number and worked backwards to a pre-baked weight, and used the standard amounts for cheese, pepperoni and sauce, the dough ball weight would be somewhere around 6 ounces. We know that can't be right. That said, I'd still like to see how a Buddy's emergency clone pizza using 9 ounces of dough turns out when baked in your deck oven at market with the standard amounts of brick cheese (or one of your blends), pepperoni and sauce.

Peter

Peter,

If you look at second, third and fourth pictures I posted at Reply 526 it looked to me like that was a part basil leaf on the Buddy’s pizza.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg225586.html#msg225586  I didn’t think about it at the time, but should have taken it off and tasted it to see if it really was basil or something else.

Whatever it was it also can be seen in the second picture at Reply 529 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg225589.html#msg225589   There is no way now that I can now investiage what it was.  No, I didn’t notice any bits of skin in the sauce in the Buddy‘s pizza.  I believe you are right that the extra sauce Buddy’s gave me was the Tomato Basil sauce.  Thanks for the links to the Stanislaus Products.  When Steve and I tasted the extra sauce it really had a great taste, but I sure don’t recall the sauce on the Buddy’s pizza having that same great taste, but just thought the taste changed somehow after the pizza had the final bake.  I didn’t think about it yesterday, but Steve and I could have scratched some of the sauce off of the Buddy’s pizza and tasted it before the final bake.  I can email Buddy’s to ask if the extra sauce was the same as used on a regular 4-square pizza if you want me to.  I have the email address to Dennis.

I can understand there can be no way to work back to what happened with weight losses in Buddy’s pizza.  I still have some of the Eddie’s brick cheese and can try an emergency dough using 9 ounces of dough with the standard amounts of brick cheese, pepperoni and sauce.  Do you mean that I would make the emergency dough in the morning before I go to market with 0.80% IDY?

I also wanted to post that I wrote Bobby at Armour-Eckrich Meat another email this morning.  I have not heard from Mike that was on vacation last week.  I just asked if there was any way I could obtain a small sample of the coarse grind pepperoni before I keep trying to find distributors in my area.  At least if I had a sample of the coarse grind pepperoni I could try it on my clone attempts and be able to weigh it more.

This is what Bobby replied to me in an email.

Hi Norma, Mike is back and catching up. The quickest way to get you a sample bag is thru the local broker in Philly. Unfortunatley, I do not have that contact number. I will get with Mike to see if he can expedite this project.

Sorry for the delay.
Bobby Koch

Norma

[norma427]

Norma,

I’m guessing it is that very pale yellow that you see in some softer, higher fat cheeses. I’d bet it’s not very yellow. You and I probably wouldn’t call it yellow if we saw it in person. He probably meant it’s not pure white like some cheddars. Just a guess.


Craig

Craig,

I believe you are right about the Widmer brick cheese.  I will call Joe for clarification to see if the Widmer's mild brick cheese is truly yellow.

Norma

[TXCraig1]

This is what Bobby replied to me in an email.

Hi Norma, Mike is back and catching up. The quickest way to get you a sample bag is thru the local broker in Philly. Unfortunatley, I do not have that contact number. I will get with Mike to see if he can expedite this project.

Norma, I worked for a foodservice brokerage for years. He's right that for manufacturers that use brokers (as opposed to a dedicated sales force), the best way to get samples or information is through the broker. Foodservice brokers typically have people that all they do all day is run around and deliver samples.

People are expensive, and nowadays, most manufacturers use brokers because it is often more cost effective than hiring their own sales force (Hormel, where I also worked, is a notable exception). As such, they typically don't have the resoures to deal with consumer questions and needs directly because they have outsourced that capacity to the brokers.

Craig

[norma427]

Norma, I worked for a foodservice brokerage for years. He's right that for manufacturers that use brokers (as opposed to a dedicated sales force), the best way to get samples or information is through the broker. Foodservice brokers typically have people that all they do all day is run around and deliver samples.

People are expensive, and nowadays, most manufacturers use brokers because it is often more cost effective than hiring their own sales force (Hormel, where I also worked, is a notable exception). As such, they typically don't have the resoures to deal with consumer questions and needs directly because they have outsourced that capacity to the brokers.

Craig

Craig,

Thanks for telling me about you working for a foodservice brokerage for years and what happens, how that works and that the best way to get samples or information is through the broker.  I learn a lot from you.   

Norma

[Skee]

I don't see where Buddy's, Shield's, or Detroit use the word "maranara" for their pizza either.

I think the misspelling is some Detroit thing - the Via313 menu uses it and I emailed them a long time ago about the "mistake" but they never responded or changed the menu.

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

If you look at second, third and fourth pictures I posted at Reply 526 it looked to me like that was a part basil leaf on the Buddy’s pizza.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg225586.html#msg225586  I didn’t think about it at the time, but should have taken it off and tasted it to see if it really was basil or something else.

Whatever it was it also can be seen in the second picture at Reply 529 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg225589.html#msg225589   There is no way now that I can now investiage what it was.

I saw the fleck of whatever it was. I thought that it might have been a dried herb in the seasoning that Buddy's uses in making the sauce.

No, I didn’t notice any bits of skin in the sauce in the Buddy‘s pizza.  I believe you are right that the extra sauce Buddy’s gave me was the Tomato Basil sauce.  Thanks for the links to the Stanislaus Products.  When Steve and I tasted the extra sauce it really had a great taste, but I sure don’t recall the sauce on the Buddy’s pizza having that same great taste, but just thought the taste changed somehow after the pizza had the final bake.  I didn’t think about it yesterday, but Steve and I could have scratched some of the sauce off of the Buddy’s pizza and tasted it before the final bake.  I can email Buddy’s to ask if the extra sauce was the same as used on a regular 4-square pizza if you want me to.  I have the email address to Dennis.

If you don't mind, I'd be interested in what Dennis might tell you, if he remembers what sauce he sent you. However, as I previously noted, and as is stated on the Buddy's menus, customers have a choice between the Original sauce and the Tomato Basil sauce. You might ask Dennis what the difference is between the two sauces. 

I can understand there can be no way to work back to what happened with weight losses in Buddy’s pizza.  I still have some of the Eddie’s brick cheese and can try an emergency dough using 9 ounces of dough with the standard amounts of brick cheese, pepperoni and sauce.  Do you mean that I would make the emergency dough in the morning before I go to market with 0.80% IDY?

That is what I was thinking if it is doable without messing up your schedule at market. As you have indicated, you have not seen a major difference between the emergency Buddy's clones and the non-emergency versions. If so, then you might find that an emergency version might be the one to use at market as the standard. It might not be based on a 9-ounce dough ball but some other weight. The 9-ounce dough ball test might tell us whether that is a viable weight.

I also wanted to post that I wrote Bobby at Armour-Eckrich Meat another email this morning.  I have not heard from Mike that was on vacation last week.  I just asked if there was any way I could obtain a small sample of the coarse grind pepperoni before I keep trying to find distributors in my area.  At least if I had a sample of the coarse grind pepperoni I could try it on my clone attempts and be able to weigh it more.

That would be great if you can swing it. Having the sample might also help you confirm whether you had the Margherita pepperoni on your Buddy's pizza. And maybe you will like it well enough to consider using it if the pricing is right and is readily available to you.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I saw the fleck of whatever it was. I thought that it might have been a dried herb in the seasoning that Buddy's uses in making the sauce.

If you don't mind, I'd be interested in what Dennis might tell you, if he remembers what sauce he sent you. However, as I previously noted, and as is stated on the Buddy's menus, customers have a choice between the Original sauce and the Tomato Basil sauce. You might ask Dennis what the difference is between the two sauces. 

That is what I was thinking if it is doable without messing up your schedule at market. As you have indicated, you have not seen a major difference between the emergency Buddy's clones and the non-emergency versions. If so, then you might find that an emergency version might be the one to use at market as the standard. It might not be based on a 9-ounce dough ball but some other weight. The 9-ounce dough ball test might tell us whether that is a viable weight.
That would be great if you can swing it. Having the sample might also help you confirm whether you had the Margherita pepperoni on your Buddy's pizza. And maybe you will like it well enough to consider using it if the pricing is right and is readily available to you.

Peter

Peter,

I wish I would have investigated the fleck more, but I didn’t.  I will email Dennis later today and see if he remembers what sauce he sent me.  I will also ask Dennis what the difference is between the Original Sauce and the Tomato Basil sauce.

I know I posted I have not seen any major difference in using an emergency Buddy’s dough and a non-emergency one.  Do you mean I would have to make the emergency dough at market each Tuesday morning or have frozen emergency doughs ready.  I think trying to mix emergency doughs in the morning at market would give me too many more dishes to wash and put away and also I would have to get earlier in the morning.  Don’t forget I am getting old and the day is long at market as it is.  I will use a 9 ounce dough for the emergency dough.  Does it matter if it is frozen, or should I make the emergency dough fresh on Tuesday morning?

Hopefully I can obtain a sample of the coarse grind pepperoni.  I will work on doing that.

Norma

[norma427]

If anyone is interested I just spoke to Joe Widmer again.  He is going to send me samples of both brick cheeses to try.  I also asked about if the mild brick cheese is really a yellow color and he said no, but the mild brick cheese does have a slightly yellow color.  Joe said his grandmother preferred the stronger brick cheese on her pizzas.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I know I posted I have not seen any major difference in using an emergency Buddy’s dough and a non-emergency one.  Do you mean I would have to make the emergency dough at market each Tuesday morning or have frozen emergency doughs ready.  I think trying to mix emergency doughs in the morning at market would give me too many more dishes to wash and put away and also I would have to get earlier in the morning.  Don’t forget I am getting old and the day is long at market as it is.  I will use a 9 ounce dough for the emergency dough.  Does it matter if it is frozen, or should I make the emergency dough fresh on Tuesday morning?

Norma,

Now I better understand what you are saying. Since the 9-ounce dough ball test is mainly to determine whether that is an amount that works, and maybe is close to what Buddy's is using, I think you can go with a frozen emergency dough version. I assume that you would make and freeze the test dough ball at home and let it thaw out on Monday at market for use on Tuesday. Is that correct?

If you end up selling your Detroit style clone pizzas at market, are you thinking of a one-day cold ferment version of the dough that is made at market on Monday for use on Tuesday?

Peter

[Tscarborough]

I think the misspelling is some Detroit thing - the Via313 menu uses it and I emailed them a long time ago about the "mistake" but they never responded or changed the menu.

Via313 uses "Marinara" as a type of pizza (and it is now spelled correctly), they just say "fresh crushed tomato" for the actual sauce.

[norma427]

Norma,

Now I better understand what you are saying. Since the 9-ounce dough ball test is mainly to determine whether that is an amount that works, and maybe is close to what Buddy's is using, I think you can go with a frozen emergency dough version. I assume that you would make and freeze the test dough ball at home and let it thaw out on Monday at market for use on Tuesday. Is that correct?

If you end up selling your Detroit style clone pizzas at market, are you thinking of a one-day cold ferment version of the dough that is made at market on Monday for use on Tuesday?

Peter

Peter,

I know the 9 ounce dough ball is only to test to see if that amount works.  You are correct that I will make that one dough ball at home and then take it to market thaw on Monday.  I could also make a quick emergency dough ball at home Tuesday morning if you want me to.   

I am thinking along the lines of doing a one-day cold ferment version of the dough that is made on market on Monday and used on Tuesday if the my customers like the Detroit-style pizzas   That would fall right in line with my NY style dough making now.   

Norma

[norma427]

Via313 uses "Marinara" as a type of pizza (and it is now spelled correctly), they just say "fresh crushed tomato" for the actual sauce.

Tom,

Thanks for posting that.  Did you ever try Via 313 "Marinara" pizza?  It sounds good to me. 

Norma

[Tscarborough]

No, I always get the Detroiter for me or Italian Sausage and onions if I am taking it home because that is what Mama likes.

[Pete-zza]

I could also make a quick emergency dough ball at home Tuesday morning if you want me to.

Norma,

That would be fine also if you can manage it because it will be more in line with what I believe Buddy's does.

As a related aside, I thought that you might be interested in reading Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13048.msg142525.html#msg142525 over at the steel_baker Victory Pig Style Pizza thread. That post describes some of the factors that are involved in trying to make multiple room temperature dough batches throughout the course of a day while keeping things moving smoothly. In re-reading parts of the Victory Pig thread recently, I couldn't help but notice how many aspects that style of pizza shares with the Detroit style pizza and other pan style pizzas. Yet they all have something that uniquely differentiates them from the next guy's product. With Buddy's, it is the combination of a steel pan with steep sides, a high yeast, high hydration emergency type dough, the brick cheese and the way it forms a crispy dam around the sides of the pan, the placement of pepperoni slices under the cheese and the way that the sauce goes over the cheese in the form of dolloped stripes. And with the 4-square pizza, every slice is a corner slice with a crispy bottom crust yet a soft interior.

Peter

[Skee]

Via313 uses "Marinara" as a type of pizza (and it is now spelled correctly), they just say "fresh crushed tomato" for the actual sauce.

I guess I should go by and claim my free pizza for letting them know about the typo!

[Tscarborough]

Meet you at 6th st at 6 tonight!

[Skee]

Meet you at 6th st at 6 tonight!

I wish.  Week nights are impossible for me with two kids in school and working late to get through the end of the year.

[Tscarborough]

This is a Marinara with cheese (or a cheese pizza with garlic and EVOO).  It weighed 438 grams, and was damn good, even though it had cooled off a lot by the time I got it home to weigh.  The crust is a little thinner than normal, too.

[norma427]

Norma,

That would be fine also if you can manage it because it will be more in line with what I believe Buddy's does.

As a related aside, I thought that you might be interested in reading Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13048.msg142525.html#msg142525 over at the steel_baker Victory Pig Style Pizza thread. That post describes some of the factors that are involved in trying to make multiple room temperature dough batches throughout the course of a day while keeping things moving smoothly. In re-reading parts of the Victory Pig thread recently, I couldn't help but notice how many aspects that style of pizza shares with the Detroit style pizza and other pan style pizzas. Yet they all have something that uniquely differentiates them from the next guy's product. With Buddy's, it is the combination of a steel pan with steep sides, a high yeast, high hydration emergency type dough, the brick cheese and the way it forms a crispy dam around the sides of the pan, the placement of pepperoni slices under the cheese and the way that the sauce goes over the cheese in the form of dolloped stripes. And with the 4-square pizza, every slice is a corner slice with a crispy bottom crust yet a soft interior.

Peter

Peter,

I also was over at the Victory Pig thread and few days ago and saw Apuleius post at Reply 13 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13048.msg142525.html#msg142525  I wonder if Buddy’s also might let the dough out of their mixer ferment some before the dough is cut, scaled, balled and put into the pans.  If they are making large amounts of dough the dough would probably ferment some until all the dough balls are scaled.  I wouldn’t think it would not matter though if the dough is left to ferment some, or the temper period takes care of the fermentation.  Buddy’s formulations I have been trying have a higher hydration than the formulation you set-forth in baker’s percents for steel_baker at Reply 63 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13048.msg161972.html#msg161972  steel_baker‘s formulation also has olive oil and sugar in the formulation.  I recall trying steel_baker’s formulation and liking it. I agree that Buddy’s pizza, Detroit style pizzas, different Sicilian and some Focaccia style pizzas share some of the same characteristics.  I also agree that each one has something that differentiates them from the next guy’s product.  I am glad PizzaHog and other members worked so hard on the “Detroit Style” Buddy’s thread so I can try to make a credible Buddy’s clone at market. 

As you probably know I am always looking for some different to offer at market that my customers might like.  I can only hope the Buddy’s clone might be it. 

This is just a little aside from what I have been doing in this thread, but this past Tuesday a customer came and wanted a Greek-style pizza in 30 minutes.  I didn’t have enough of the AMPI cheddar cheese grated and thought I was finished for the evening.  I thought to myself why not try to make it and not let the dough rise in the pan at all to see what would happen (I normally let the dough rise in the pan for a Greek-style pizza at least a half hour), so the customer could get their Greek style pizza.  I just grated some more of the AMPI cheddar cheese put the dough in the pan and made the Greek-style pizza.  I was surprised that it rose nicely without the tempering period.  I really don’t think a Buddy’s clone would fare as well with that method though.

I am just hoping if my customers like Detroit-style pizzas I can get everything together to be able to make them in addition to my normal NY style pizzas.  Making a few of these Detroit-style pizza is a lot different than to try and have them to offer all day with a tempering period and me being limited to as what I can do. 

Norma