Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!

[norma427]

This is a Marinara with cheese (or a cheese pizza with garlic and EVOO).  It weighed 438 grams, and was damn good, even though it had cooled off a lot by the time I got it home to weigh.  The crust is a little thinner than normal, too.

Tom,

Thanks for posting a picture of the Marinara with cheese from Via 313.  That sure looks good to me and I wish I could have tasted it.  I wish I lived in your area so I could try different Via 313 pizzas.  I wonder why the crust was thinner than normal, or if the temper time was as much.  Do you know if Via 313 uses different dough weights for their different dressing pizzas? 

Norma

[norma427]

I recently saw a new flour at our local Country store and purchased a bag.  It is called Organic Sprouted Whole Grain Wheat Flour.  I thought it might be interesting to test the Organic Sprouted Wheat flour in a Detroit-style pizza to see what would happen.  I looked on Dutch Valley’s website, but since I didn’t know who manufactures the flour, their website didn’t help me.  I call my Country Store this morning to find out who manufactures the Organic Sprouted Whole Grain Wheat Flour.  Jamie told me Shiloh Farms produces the flour.  I looked on Shiloh Farms website at http://www.shilohfarms.com/products/Sprouted-Spring-Wheat-Flour%2C-Organic.html  I then called Shiloh Farms to see what the protein content was of the Organic Sprouted Whole Grain Wheat Flour and talked to Rob.  Rob said the protein content is anywhere between 12-14% and is usually nearer 14% and can be replaced on a one to one basis with regular flour.  The Organic Sprouted Whole Grain Wheat Flour is very fine.  Rob said if I have any other questions after I try the Organic Sprouted Whole Grain Wheat Flour in a formulation for pizza I can call him back and talked to the people that have studied how to make this flour.

I found it interesting that the grains used to make this flour have been sprouted to increase the bio-availability of nutrients that lay dormant in whole grain.  Enzymes, vitamins and minerals are released; starches and proteins are naturally reduced into the simple sugars, that are more easily absorbed into your body to provide your need for energy.

The Result: Essential Eating sprouted grain flour digests as a vegetable. Good digestion is key to good health. You'll notice the benefits in no time and soon, you'll be using SHILOH FARMS Essential Eating Sprouted Grain Flours in all your favorite recipes.

What I wanted to ask is if anyone thinks I should do anything differently with this flour when I try to make a Detroit-style dough.  I am going to make an emergency dough at home tomorrow with this flour.  The Detroit-style pizza is also going to be made at home tomorrow.

Norma

[TXCraig1]

It will be interesting to see what happens. Sprouting degrades gluten proteins starting with the glutenins which give strength to the dough. Given that whole wheat breads tend to be denser in general, I'm guessing it will make a fairly dense crust if you use it as 100% of your flour. 

I'm not sure I could bring myself to pay $2.69/lb for flour.

[norma427]

It will be interesting to see what happens. Sprouting degrades gluten proteins starting with the glutenins which give strength to the dough. Given that whole wheat breads tend to be denser in general, I'm guessing it will make a fairly dense crust if you use it as 100% of your flour. 

I'm not sure I could bring myself to pay $2.69/lb for flour.

Craig,

Thanks for your ideas about the sprouting degrading gluten proteins starting with glutenins which give strength to the dough.  I know when I used some whole wheat flours before I needed to add more water to the formulation, or another flour. 

Really for all the money I paid for cheeses on some of my threads, I didn’t think 2.69 a lb. was too bad for the flour.  I don’t know how many pizzas this flour will make, but flour is cheaper than cheeses or other toppings in my opinion.  If this flour doesn’t work out, I will just chalk it up to a learning experience. 

Norma

[norma427]

I think this is a new article about Detroit-style pizza.  Detroit-style pizza really seems to be growing in popularity.

http://education.tmcnet.com/news/2012/11/30/6761095.htm

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I think this is a new article about Detroit-style pizza.  Detroit-style pizza really seems to be growing in popularity.

http://education.tmcnet.com/news/2012/11/30/6761095.htm

Norma,

There is no doubt that the Detroit style pizza is growing in popularity, but I wouldn't try to read too much into the article you cited. It is basically a PR release that was attibuted to PRweb.com, which is the vehicle that Shawn Ranzazzo has used to promote his company, the Detroit Style Pizza Co, and the Detroit style pizza that his company promotes, along with that style of pizza that Cloverleaf Pizza, which his mother bought from the previous owners, makes.

The Detroit style pizza market is not all that large. According to the Pizza Today 2011 Hot 100 Independents list at http://www.pizzatoday.com/magazine/2012-october-independents-list, Buddy's annual sales are given as $20M. That is a number that I also found elsewhere from a research of corporate business data. Shield's annual sales are given as $6M. Elsewhere, I saw an annual sales figure for Loui's of about $1.1M. I was not able to find any data on annual sales for Cloverleaf or the Detroit Style Pizza Co. Neither is on the Pizza Today list although those companies may have chosen not to reply to the Pizza Today survey. Both Shield's and the Detroit Style Pizza Co have stated that they plan to expand their businesses, mostly through franchising. By contrast, Buddy's has grown its business organically. And it opens a new store only when business conditions and the economics justify it. With its national acclaim, they could easily have gone to a franchising model and done so successfully. Maybe that will happen some day but for now they seem to be content with things just as they are. Loui's is now run by Louis Tourtois' son (also named Louis), with no signs of expanding beyond their single store that was started by the elder Louis after he had spent 27 years with Buddy's and seven years at Shield's. He is now in his late 70s and putters around the store from time to time but it is his son who now actively runs the business.

By contrast, Jet's, which makes a square pizza with a lot of similarities to the Detroit style pizza but without calling it such, reported most recent annual sales of $231,462,400 (http://www.pizzatoday.com/magazine/2012-november-top-100-companies-list).

When I was reseaching the Detroit style pizza in general, I found that there were pizza operators specializing in the Detroit style pizza in several states outside of Michigan. Going strictly on memory, they include North Carolina, Colorado, California, Florida (a few locations), Minnesota, Texas, and Nevada. But, for the most part, they are one or two store operations. You can see the names of those stores at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit-style_pizza although that list should perhaps be updated to include Pizza Square in Tampa and Tony Gemignani's place in California.

So, yes, the Detroit style pizza is expanding its footprint but I would say that achieving parity with the New York style and/or the Chicago style pizza is a long way away, if ever. Creating demand for a product that most people don't even know they should have is a very difficult proposition that can consume a great deal of time, energy and money.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

There is no doubt that the Detroit style pizza is growing in popularity, but I wouldn't try to read too much into the article you cited. It is basically a PR release that was attibuted to PRweb.com, which is the vehicle that Shawn Ranzazzo has used to promote his company, the Detroit Style Pizza Co, and the Detroit style pizza that his company promotes, along with that style of pizza that Cloverleaf Pizza, which his mother bought from the previous owners, makes.

The Detroit style pizza market is not all that large. According to the Pizza Today 2011 Hot 100 Independents list at http://www.pizzatoday.com/magazine/2012-october-independents-list, Buddy's annual sales are given as $20M. That is a number that I also found elsewhere from a research of corporate business data. Shield's annual sales are given as $6M. Elsewhere, I saw an annual sales figure for Loui's of about $1.1M. I was not able to find any data on annual sales for Cloverleaf or the Detroit Style Pizza Co. Neither is on the Pizza Today list although those companies may have chosen not to reply to the Pizza Today survey. Both Shield's and the Detroit Style Pizza Co have stated that they plan to expand their businesses, mostly through franchising. By contrast, Buddy's has grown its business organically. And it opens a new store only when business conditions and the economics justify it. With its national acclaim, they could easily have gone to a franchising model and done so successfully. Maybe that will happen some day but for now they seem to be content with things just as they are. Loui's is now run by Louis Tourtois' son (also named Louis), with no signs of expanding beyond their single store that was started by the elder Louis after he had spent 27 years with Buddy's and seven years at Shield's. He is now in his late 70s and putters around the store from time to time but it is his son who now actively runs the business.

By contrast, Jet's, which makes a square pizza with a lot of similarities to the Detroit style pizza but without calling it such, reported most recent annual sales of $231,462,400 (http://www.pizzatoday.com/magazine/2012-november-top-100-companies-list).

When I was reseaching the Detroit style pizza in general, I found that there were pizza operators specializing in the Detroit style pizza in several states outside of Michigan. Going strictly on memory, they include North Carolina, Colorado, Florida (a few locations), Minnesota, Texas, and Nevada. But, for the most part, they are one or two store operations. You can see the names of those stores at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit-style_pizza although that list should perhaps be updated to include Pizza Square in Tampa.

So, yes, the Detroit style pizza is expanding its footprint but I would say that achieving parity with the New York style and/or the Chicago style pizza is a long way away, if ever. Creating demand for a product that most people don't even know they should have is a very difficult proposition that can consume a great deal of time, energy and money.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for all the information about all the pizza businesses that serve Detroit style pizzas and telling me the Detroit style market really isn’t that large.

I just assumed when I read that Google Trends data demonstrates that the search volume for the term “Detroit Style Pizza” recently outpaced both “New York Style Pizza” and “Chicago Style Pizza” in relative search volume growth, peaking at 113 percent growth in the Food and Drink category for September 2012.  During the same month, "New York Style Pizza" posted relative search volume growth of 28 percent and "Chicago Style Pizza" relative search volume grew by six percent.  I then went on to read about the demand for Detroit Style Pizza among consumer and pizzerias alike has increased steadily since Detroit Style Pizza Co President Shawn Randazzo earned the pizza industry’s prestigious award.  I didn’t know that it was basically a PR release that was attributed to Rrweb.com, which is the vehicle that Shaw Ranzazzo has used to promote his company.

I should not have posted that link.  I don’t even know where to look at Google trends data.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

There was no harm in your posting a link to the article you referenced. I was just trying to put it into perspective. To give you an idea as to what PRweb does, see http://service.prweb.com/go/psg_brand/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=psg_brand&mkwid=sIQDm7Spe&pcrid=19550752375&pmt=b&pkw=prweb&gclid=CIiJ44Pz97MCFSemPAod-SUA2A?

As for Google Trends, if you go to http://www.google.com/trends/, you can do your own search volume analysis. With all the searching I have done on the Detroit style pizza since you started this thread, maybe I am the one who has run up all of the Google search volume numbers .

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

There was no harm in your posting a link to the article you referenced. I was just trying to put it into perspective. To give you an idea as to what PRweb does, see http://service.prweb.com/go/psg_brand/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=psg_brand&mkwid=sIQDm7Spe&pcrid=19550752375&pmt=b&pkw=prweb&gclid=CIiJ44Pz97MCFSemPAod-SUA2A?

As for Google Trends, if you go to http://www.google.com/trends/, you can do your own search volume analysis. With all the searching I have done on the Detroit style pizza since you started this thread, maybe I am the one who has run up all of the Google search volume numbers .

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the link to what Prweb does and also the link to Google Trends.  Those links were interesting.  I see when the cursor is put on the different places in Google trends, really there aren’t a lot of searches for Detroit style pizza.  It looks to me by Google trends that more searches are done for NY style pizzas over the same amount of time.  

I think I might have also run up some of the Google search volume numbers, because I also was trying to learn more about Detroit style pizzas (which I really didn’t know a lot about before, except for looking at the threads here on the forum).  You are probably way ahead of me in searching though.  

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

As you can see in the photos referenced below, the Detroit Style Pizza Co is changing the names of its Cloverleaf Pizza stores:

Before (Saint Clair Shores location): http://stclairshores.patch.com/listings/cloverleaf-pizza

After (Saint Clair Shores location): https://plus.google.com/105355342414926541662/about?hl=en#105355342414926541662/about?hl=en

After (Clinton Township location): http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/S8OEDY4QY0i6bvNSssdNbQ?select=_wj8qlc9OApIXo7gEipvgw#_wj8qlc9OApIXo7gEipvgw

From some further research, it appears that the two stores are mainly delcos (delivery and takeout) with a few tables for in-store dining. The annual sales numbers I found indicate less than $500K for each of the stores. I mention this to demonstrate the low sales volumes and how Shawn Randazzo has a steep mountain to climb to popularize the Detroit style pizzas outside of Michigan. He is certainly an enteprenuer so it will be intersting to plot his progress.

Peter

[shuboyje]

Those changes actually happened a while ago.  Can't tell you exactly when, but it's been at least a year since the first time I noticed that Detroit Style Pizza sign on the St. Claire Shores location.  Both of these are exactly as you noticed, very small deliver carryout locations, I'm surprised to hear there are tables inside based on the size of the locations from the outside.

Those sales numbers are probably a bit misleading.  People in Detroit don't look to awards or accolades when it comes to Detroit style pizza, they go to the local joint they have always gone to.  In that sense Detroit Style Pizza Co.  is a newcomer and a nobody.  There are TONS of little guys making this type of pizza in every neighborhood that the internet will never hear of, but loyal locals have been eating there for years and will continue to.   

[norma427]

Peter and Jeff,

Thanks for the information about when Cloverleaf pizza stores changed over to the Detroit Style Pizza Co.

It is interesting Jeff that the sales numbers might be misleading.  I really don’t know that much about how many little guys are making a Detroit style pizza in every neighborhood that the internet will never hear of since I haven‘t been to that area of the country. 

Maybe there is too much hype about Detroit style pizza in other areas other than around Detroit right now.

I can see that Shawn Randazzo has a steep mountain to climb to popularize the Detroit style pizzas outside of Michigan.

Norma 

[Pete-zza]

Those changes actually happened a while ago.  Can't tell you exactly when, but it's been at least a year since the first time I noticed that Detroit Style Pizza sign on the St. Claire Shores location.  Both of these are exactly as you noticed, very small deliver carryout locations, I'm surprised to hear there are tables inside based on the size of the locations from the outside.

Jeff,

It was at the Saint Claire location, shown at http://stclairshores.patch.com/listings/cloverleaf-pizza, where I saw that one of the little photos (the photo in the middle) shows some tables.

What confused me until quite recently is that at one time there were two places that had Cloverleaf in their names and made the Detroit style pizza. Shawn Randazzo and his mother owned two of them and changed the names to the Detroit Style Pizza Co, and there was a second place called Cloverleaf Bar & Restaurant that is run by members of the Guerra family and goes back to about 1953, when Gus Guerra bought the restaurant after he sold Buddy's. The website for that restaurant is http://www.cloverleafrestaurant.com/. That restaurant seems to be a full-service restaurant where the Detroit style pizza is but one part of what they serve. From what I can tell from a search of business data, Cloverleaf Bar & Restaurant appears to have annual sales of around $2.5M.

According to the Slice article at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2012/05/detroit-the-guerra-legacy-lives-on-at-cloverleaf.html, it sounds like the three Cloverleaf locations were related at one time but that the two smaller places were sold off to Shawn Randazzo's mother. Maybe that is why Shawn uses the Guerra name in much of his promotional materials.

Peter

[norma427]

I mixed the Detroit style dough using the same formulation with 0.80% IDY and mixed the same way in my Kitchen Aid mixer, but instead of Occident flour, the Organic Sprouted Whole Grain Wheat Flour was used.  The dough did feel a little sticky, but it sure isn’t like regular doughs I have made on this thread.  The final dough temperature was 90.9 degrees F.  Poppy seeds were placed on the dough ball so I can see when it has doubled if it does.  The dough ball was formed at 1:14 PM and was scaled down to 9 ounces. 

I sure don’t know how this flour will work in a Detroit style pizza, but I am trying something else too.  I have wondered if it is really necessary to use brick cheese or cheddar on the edges to get the good caramelization on the edges.  For this attempt I am using diced Grande Italian Blend of cheeses which include skim mozzarella being listed first, cheddar second and then provolone cheese third and am using 8 ounces of the Grande blend.  I also weighed out 1.25 ounces of my regular Hormel pepperoni.  I didn’t want to mix a lot of sauce for and just used Classico Peeled Ground Tomatoes with oregano, Italian herbs and a little Kosher salt added.  I will weigh the baked pizza, but don’t think that will be too useful since I am using a different flour.

Norma

[Chicago Bob]

Nice to see you experimenting(as always) Norma. I think your call on trying the Grande Italian blend with the skim mozz is going to give you maximum edge carmelization. 
Good luck!

[Ev]

That's an interesting ball of dough you have there, Norma. Can't wait to hear how it turns out.

[norma427]

Nice to see you experimenting(as always) Norma. I think your call on trying the Grande Italian blend with the skim mozz is going to give you maximum edge carmelization. 
Good luck!

Bob,

I don't know if the Grande blend will give me good edge caramelization or not.  I will wait and see what happens.

Norma

[norma427]

That's an interesting ball of dough you have there, Norma. Can't wait to hear how it turns out.

Steve,

Yep, is sure is an interesting dough ball.   

Norma

[norma427]

The dough ball did double in volume in an hour and now is spread in the pan.  The pan was oiled with Canola oil

Norma

[norma427]

The organic whole wheat flour in combination with the Grande blend did turn out well in an emergency dough.  The Detroit pizza with organic whole wheat flour was made within two hours after forming the dough ball.  I will post the rest of the pictures as soon as I resize them and do the rest of the report.

Norma