Author Topic: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 152707 times)

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #600 on: December 01, 2012, 05:00:40 PM »
This is the rest of the report about what happened when using Organic Sprouted Wheat Grain Wheat Flour and an emergency dough with the Grande cheese blend.  The experiment worked out well in my opinion.

The skin in the steel pan was dressed exactly 2 hrs. after the dough ball was formed.  The plastic lid was kept on the steel pan the whole time the dough was tempering.  The dough with the organic wheat flour was very easy to press out with my fingers.  I had put the steel pan on my one burner where it wasnít really hot on top of my oven while it was heating to let it temper faster.  The pizza stone was on the bottom rack and the oven was heated for an hour.  The temperature of the pizza stone was 492 degrees F when I put the pizza into the oven. The dough tempered in the steel pan and I probably could have left it temper more, but I wanted to see if a decent Detroit style pizza could be made in 2 hrs. with this flour. 

I used 4.8 ounces of the Classico tomato sauce with herbs and Kosher salt added. 

I still donít know if other cheeses can be used to make the nice caramelized edges, but the Grande blend did work. 

The first picture of the pizza in the oven was taken when the edge cheeses started to brown.  The second picture with the edges browning more was taken a little later.  The final bake time was 12 minutes 28 seconds and some odd seconds.

I donít think it really matters, but the final bake weight of this pizza was 618 grams.

The crumb of this Detroit style pizza wasnít as airy as some of my crumbs, but the nutty taste of the crumb was excellent in my opinion.  The crumb was also very soft.

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #601 on: December 01, 2012, 05:01:57 PM »
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #602 on: December 01, 2012, 05:03:14 PM »
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #603 on: December 01, 2012, 05:04:24 PM »
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #604 on: December 01, 2012, 05:05:54 PM »
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #605 on: December 01, 2012, 05:07:21 PM »
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #606 on: December 01, 2012, 05:09:04 PM »
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #607 on: December 01, 2012, 05:22:44 PM »
That's a great looking pie Norma! How did it taste compared to your regular flour? You said "nutty" but was it better or worse overall?
 Would you pick me up a bag if you get a chance?

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #608 on: December 01, 2012, 05:30:01 PM »
That's a great looking pie Norma! How did it taste compared to your regular flour? You said "nutty" but was it better or worse overall?
 Would you pick me up a bag if you get a chance?

Steve,

Thanks, what I meant was the nutty taste was really good in my opinion.  I liked it better than regular flour, but the crumb wasn't as airy. 

I will pick you up a bag on Monday.

I just ate a cold slice and it is even good that way.

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #609 on: December 01, 2012, 05:59:11 PM »
Norma,

It looks like Buddy's emergency dough method works well even for a whole wheat version. Maybe sometime you can try using a higher hydration to see if you can open up the crumb some more. I don't know if you remember this, but Buddy's has a whole grain option for its pizzas, apparently with a thinner crust according to its standard menu at http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/Carryout101.pdf.

FYI, based on a dough ball weight of 9 ounces, 8 ounces of the Grande cheese blend, 1.25 ounces of pepperoni slices, and 4.8 ounces of pizza sauce, the unbaked pizza weight was 23.05 ounces. Based on the baked weight of 618 grams, or 21.8 ounces, the weight loss during baking was only 1.25 ounces, or 5.4%. It will be interesting to see what results you get when you make the 9-ounce dough ball with your Occident flour next week.

Recently, I did some searching to see if anyone in the Metro Detroit area was using Provolone cheese for the Detroit style pizza. I didn't do an exhaustive search but I did find one person, a chef for hire, who uses Provolone for his version of the Detroit style pizza. It looks like your Grande blend was effective in creating a crispy cheese around the perimeter of the pan.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 06:03:35 PM by Pete-zza »


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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #610 on: December 01, 2012, 06:19:31 PM »
Norma, fine looking experiment with the sprouted wheat flour....I suspect a longer ferment would open up your crumb, no? I hope you enjoyed the taste of this current cheese blend you tried out.  :chef:
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #611 on: December 01, 2012, 08:33:06 PM »
Norma,

It looks like Buddy's emergency dough method works well even for a whole wheat version. Maybe sometime you can try using a higher hydration to see if you can open up the crumb some more. I don't know if you remember this, but Buddy's has a whole grain option for its pizzas, apparently with a thinner crust according to its standard menu at http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/Carryout101.pdf.

FYI, based on a dough ball weight of 9 ounces, 8 ounces of the Grande cheese blend, 1.25 ounces of pepperoni slices, and 4.8 ounces of pizza sauce, the unbaked pizza weight was 23.05 ounces. Based on the baked weight of 618 grams, or 21.8 ounces, the weight loss during baking was only 1.25 ounces, or 5.4%. It will be interesting to see what results you get when you make the 9-ounce dough ball with your Occident flour next week.

Recently, I did some searching to see if anyone in the Metro Detroit area was using Provolone cheese for the Detroit style pizza. I didn't do an exhaustive search but I did find one person, a chef for hire, who uses Provolone for his version of the Detroit style pizza. It looks like your Grande blend was effective in creating a crispy cheese around the perimeter of the pan.

Peter

Peter,

I thought the Buddyís emergency dough method did work well for a whole wheat version.  I will try a higher hydration sometime to see if I can open the crumb up more.  I wanted to post that I only mixed the salt in with the warm water, the used the flat beater on the Kitchen Aid mixer and mixed on speed 3 for about 3 or a little more minutes, then hoped for the best.  I didnít want to try and let the water hydrate in the flour at all just to see what would happen.  I think if I would have let the water hydrate into the flour more the whole wheat dough could have had a higher hydration. 

I didnít recall that Buddyís had a Multi-Grain Curst that was thinner.  I looked on Google and saw their Multi-Grain Crust is a ďthinner crustĒ featuring 9 grains and a hint of honey.  I wonder if they use something like the Ultra-Grain flour that I have at home.  I think the one I tried with the organic wheat flour was a little thicker than Buddyís Multigrain Wheat Crust on the second picture I copied, or least it appears that way.  Wesley Pikula says in this article that the nine-grain crust is made with nine whole grains, including flaxseed and millet, ground together and combined with wheat flour. http://www.freep.com/article/20110303/COL20/103030433/Sylvia-Rector-Buddy-s-square-pizzas-among-best-country

Thanks for doing the calculations on the numbers again to see how much weight loss there was in this recent pizza.  It was interesting that there was only 5.4% weigh loss after the bake.

I wonder why no one in the Metro Detroit area is not using any provolone in the mix of cheeses.  The Grande blend was effective in creating a crispy cheese around the perimeter of the pan.  I couldnít even tell that much difference in the taste of the Grande blend in comparison with just brick cheese or using the AMPI mild cheddar and my mozzarellas.  I have to do an experiment sometime with only using mozzarella and maybe a whole mild mozzarella to see if that also browns around the perimeter and is crispy.  I sometimes wonder if it isnít just the oil frying the cheese that melts along the sides of a steel pan is what makes the crispy cheese.

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #612 on: December 01, 2012, 08:38:44 PM »
Norma, fine looking experiment with the sprouted wheat flour....I suspect a longer ferment would open up your crumb, no? I hope you enjoyed the taste of this current cheese blend you tried out.  :chef:


Bob,

Thank you for your kind comment.  :) I think a higher hydration would have helped more than a longer ferment, but can't be sure.  I did enjoy the taste of the Grande Italian Blend.  Bob1 had given that to me this summer and I have tried it on some pizzas, but for some reason on this pizza it tasted different.  I don't know if how this pizza was baked made the change or not.

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #613 on: December 02, 2012, 08:25:00 AM »
I was thinking about maybe why cheese caramelizes with oil in a steel pan.  Doesnít a pizzeria like Pequods in Chicago http://www.examiner.com/article/pequod-s-pizza-morton-grove-burnt-pizza-is-good and  http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2008/07/pequods-chicago-illinois-il-deep-dish-pizza-caramelized-crust.html or Burtís http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/05/chicago-essential-burts-place.html also make a pan pizza that the edges caramelize in a different type of steel pan?  Arenít both Pequods and Burtís just using mozzarella to get the caramelized edges?

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #614 on: December 02, 2012, 09:14:22 AM »
I didnít recall that Buddyís had a Multi-Grain Crust that was thinner.  I looked on Google and saw their Multi-Grain Crust is a ďthinner crustĒ featuring 9 grains and a hint of honey.  I wonder if they use something like the Ultra-Grain flour that I have at home.  I think the one I tried with the organic wheat flour was a little thicker than Buddyís Multigrain Wheat Crust on the second picture I copied, or least it appears that way.  Wesley Pikula says in this article that the nine-grain crust is made with nine whole grains, including flaxseed and millet, ground together and combined with wheat flour. http://www.freep.com/article/20110303/COL20/103030433/Sylvia-Rector-Buddy-s-square-pizzas-among-best-country

Norma,

There are quite a few places that sell multi-grain flour blends, for use by both commercial bakers and home bakers. From a miller's standpoint, ConAgra, which is the miller that produces the Occident flour that you have been using, offers several multi-grain flour blends although I did not see a 9-grain blend with flax seed. See, for example, http://www.conagramills.com/media/ConAgraMillsBrochure.pdf. ConAgra does, however, do custom milling but whether Buddy's volume is big enough to justify a custom blend is not clear. I would imagine that it would be easier for Buddy's to buy and existing 9-grain blend. Since you are an "old lady" beset with so many dietary, nutritional and allergy afflictions, you might send an email to Buddy's and ask them what grains are in their nine-grain blend so that you can assess whether any one or more of them will do you great harm :-D. Then you might be able to match up the mix with an existing product.

Peter

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #615 on: December 02, 2012, 10:31:41 AM »
I was thinking about maybe why cheese caramelizes with oil in a steel pan.  Doesnít a pizzeria like Pequods in Chicago http://www.examiner.com/article/pequod-s-pizza-morton-grove-burnt-pizza-is-good and  http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2008/07/pequods-chicago-illinois-il-deep-dish-pizza-caramelized-crust.html or Burtís http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/05/chicago-essential-burts-place.html also make a pan pizza that the edges caramelize in a different type of steel pan?  Arenít both Pequods and Burtís just using mozzarella to get the caramelized edges?

Norma,

I hear you and it appears to be true that Pequod's uses mozzarella cheese and does get caramelization of that cheese, but I think that, in general, there are six factors that you have to consider with respect to the caramelization of the cheese: the type of cheese used, the amount of the cheese, the physical form of the cheese (e.g., shredded or diced), whether the cheese as placed on the pizza is covered or exposed (in whole or in part), the bake temperature and the bake time. I don't know all of the details of a Pequod's pizza, including the amount of cheese used, but it looks to me that the cheese is largely covered during the baking of the pizza and, according to the article at http://www.bonnibella.com/2010/09/caramelized-crust-at-burts-place-and.html, it takes about 45 minutes to bake one of their pizzas. With such a long bake time, you are perhaps guaranteed that the cheese that is intentionally placed around the perimeter of the pan will be caramelized.

In the case of a Detroit style pizza, such as a Buddy's pizza, the cheese can be largely exposed except for some sauce stripes (for a basic cheese or similar pizza). And the bake time is much shorter than what Pequod's uses. Otherwise, the cheese would be burned and blackened beyond recognition.

As Mike at Klausie's noted in the article at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2012/09/behind-the-slice-klausies-pizza-truck.html, he espouses the proposition that there has to be the proper balance between melting of the cheese and its degree of browning so as to induce a nice crispy cheese at the perimeter of the pan. In the context of the Detroit style pizza, brick cheese seems to meet these requirements. Others believe (but not Mike) that a white cheddar cheese might also meet those requirements. As I noted previously, I did not see that nearly as much in the all-mozzarella cheese that Jet's uses on its square pizzas. See, for example, the modest caramelization of the mozzarella cheese at the perimeter of the pizza as shown at Reply 70 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg135948.html#msg135948. And that is for a pizza that is typically baked for about 8 minutes at a temperature below 500 degrees F (around 475 degrees F). I believe that we estimated that Jet's was using around 6 ounces of cheese. In that case, Im not sure how well the cheese would hold up (that is, not get overly browned) with even a few minutes more bake time.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 11:25:43 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #616 on: December 02, 2012, 12:49:58 PM »
Norma,

There are quite a few places that sell multi-grain flour blends, for use by both commercial bakers and home bakers. From a miller's standpoint, ConAgra, which is the miller that produces the Occident flour that you have been using, offers several multi-grain flour blends although I did not see a 9-grain blend with flax seed. See, for example, http://www.conagramills.com/media/ConAgraMillsBrochure.pdf. ConAgra does, however, do custom milling but whether Buddy's volume is big enough to justify a custom blend is not clear. I would imagine that it would be easier for Buddy's to buy and existing 9-grain blend. Since you are an "old lady" beset with so many dietary, nutritional and allergy afflictions, you might send an email to Buddy's and ask them what grains are in their nine-grain blend so that you can assess whether any one or more of them will do you great harm :-D. Then you might be able to match up the mix with an existing product.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me that are quite a few places that sell multi-grain flour bends.  I know I am an
ďold ladyĒ apparently beset with so many dietary, nutritional and allergy afflictions, but that isnít really me except the ďold ladyĒ part.  I didnít even get a reply from Dennis when I asked him about the two different sauces last week, so I sure am not going to email Buddyís to find out how I can match up the mix with an existing product.  That is way to much trouble.

For an ďold ladyĒ with all my afflictions Steve and I were out looking at a food truck for me today,  :-D but that one isnít for me.  It was fun though driving that big food truck.  I am still thinking about a food truck.

If anyone is interested these are a few of pictures of the food truck Steve and I looked at and drove.

Norma   
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #617 on: December 02, 2012, 01:06:13 PM »
Norma,

I hear you and it appears to be true that Pequod's uses mozzarella cheese and does get caramelization of that cheese, but I think that, in general, there are six factors that you have to consider with respect to the caramelization of the cheese: the type of cheese used, the amount of the cheese, the physical form of the cheese (e.g., shredded or diced), whether the cheese as placed on the pizza is covered or exposed (in whole or in part), the bake temperature and the bake time. I don't know all of the details of a Pequod's pizza, including the amount of cheese used, but it looks to me that the cheese is largely covered during the baking of the pizza and, according to the article at http://www.bonnibella.com/2010/09/caramelized-crust-at-burts-place-and.html, it takes about 45 minutes to bake one of their pizzas. With such a long bake time, you are perhaps guaranteed that the cheese that is intentionally placed around the perimeter of the pan will be caramelized.

In the case of a Detroit style pizza, such as a Buddy's pizza, the cheese can be largely exposed except for some sauce stripes (for a basic cheese or similar pizza). And the bake time is much shorter than what Pequod's uses. Otherwise, the cheese would be burned and blackened beyond recognition.

As Mike at Klausie's noted in the article at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2012/09/behind-the-slice-klausies-pizza-truck.html, he espouses the proposition that there has to be the proper balance between melting of the cheese and its degree of browning so as to induce a nice crispy cheese at the perimeter of the pan. In the context of the Detroit style pizza, brick cheese seems to meet these requirements. Others believe (but not Mike) that a white cheddar cheese might also meet those requirements. As I noted previously, I did not see that nearly as much in the all-mozzarella cheese that Jet's uses on its square pizzas. See, for example, the modest caramelization of the mozzarella cheese at the perimeter of the pizza as shown at Reply 70 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg135948.html#msg135948. And that is for a pizza that is typically baked for about 8 minutes at a temperature below 500 degrees F (around 475 degrees F). I believe that we estimated that Jet's was using around 6 ounces of cheese. In that case, Im not sure how well the cheese would hold up (that is, not get overly browned) with even a few minutes more bake time.

Peter


Peter,

I had no idea that Pequodís pizza took 45 minutes to bake.  :o Thanks for that link.  I wonder why they need such a long bake them for their pan pizzas.

Thank you for the link to Mikeís on Slice too.

I know I really donít have any problems so far with the brick cheese or the AMPI mild cheddar and mozzarellas I have been using in getting the nice crispy cheese at the perimeters of the pan.  I didnít have problems with the Grande blend either.  One of these days I am going to try just mozzarellas to see what happens, even with looking at the modest caramelization of the mozzarella cheese at the perimeter on PizzaHogís post of the JetĎs pizza.

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #618 on: December 03, 2012, 10:28:03 AM »
I had mixed one Buddyís clone dough ball and froze it.  I did scale it down to 9 ounces and placed the poppy seeds on the dough ball so I could see how much it ferments until tomorrow.

I also tried to dice some of the Eddies brick cheese in my cheaper Hamilton Beach food processor.  I first cut the little over 8 ounces of brick cheese into four pieces and first pulsed it some then used speed one and two to dice some more.  Using the food processor worked reasonably well, but the brick cheese is softer than cheddar or mozzarellas and my food processor isnĎt the best.  It really doesnít look exactly diced as Buddyís cheese does, but at least it is diced.  I am going to use this diced brick cheese on the emergency dough tomorrow to see if diced cheese will have any effect on the final bake weight.  I am also going to scale 2 Buddyís clone dough balls I make at market today to 9 ounces and then add some different combinations of AMPI mild cheddar and mozzarellas shredded to see what those final bake weights are and see if shredded cheeses make any differences in the final bake weights if I have time to do that all.

I only have a little more than enough of the Eddies brick cheese for one other attempt on a small BuddyĎs attempt.  I am not sure how I will use it, or if there might be other tests I can use for it. 

I also made sort of a ďgoody bagĒ to mix the emergency Buddyís clone dough ball to save me a little time tomorrow morning using 0.80% IDY.  The IDY was just place on top of the flour and the Kosher salt was put into Glad cling wrap and place on top of the flour too.  I just have to weigh out the water tomorrow morning and mix.  I placed the Kosher salt in the Glad cling wrap because I want to mix it into the water.

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #619 on: December 03, 2012, 01:41:12 PM »
Norma, did you put the Eddies brick cheese in the freezer for about 30 min before you diced it? For the size processor you have there I think you might get larger dice if you cut your chunks just a little bit smaller.  :chef:
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