Author Topic: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 166616 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #860 on: December 24, 2012, 04:45:10 PM »
I mixed the Buddy’s clone emergency dough with no salt this morning with only the flat beater in my Kitchen Aid mixer.  The dough was briefly mixed two times with the flat beater for only about 2 minutes for a total time in both mixes and on speed 4 both times.  The final dough temperature was 86.8 degrees F and it was balled right after 6:45 AM this morning.  Poppy seeds were placed on the dough ball.  On the 3rd picture it can be seen how much the dough ball had fermented until about 9:45 AM this morning.  It was then floured a little, opened and put into the steel pan that was oiled with Canola oil.  At about 11:30 AM it was made into a pizza.  I weighed the 20 slices of the Margherita Coarse Sliced Pepperoni and they weighed 1.383 ounces.  I also weighed out 8 ounces of the blends of AMPI mild white cheddar and two of my mozzarellas.  4 ounces of the combined 7/11 sauce and the Saporito Extra Heavy sauce with Fresh Bail, pepper, oregano and water was used to dress this pizza. 

After the bake the pizza weighed 592 grams.

I thought the Buddy’s clone emergency dough without salt and the Margherita Coarse Slice Pepperoni with the sauce blend made a very good pizza.  The sauce blend tasted very fresh on the emergency Buddy’s pizza.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #861 on: December 24, 2012, 04:46:48 PM »
Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #862 on: December 24, 2012, 04:49:37 PM »
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #863 on: December 24, 2012, 04:51:30 PM »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #864 on: December 24, 2012, 05:44:49 PM »
Norma,

Can you tell me. How much IDY you used for the latest Buddy's emergency clone dough?

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #865 on: December 24, 2012, 06:15:25 PM »
Norma,

Can you tell me. How much IDY you used for the latest Buddy's emergency clone dough?

Peter

Peter,

I used 0.80% IDY for the Buddy's emergency dough this morning.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #866 on: December 24, 2012, 06:30:27 PM »
I used 0.80% IDY for the Buddy's emergency dough this morning.

Norma,

The spacing of the poppy seeds in the photo you showed suggests a rise in the Buddy's emergency clone dough of about 536%, or better than a quintupling of the dough. If that is correct, than it suggests that the dough can tolerate a lot of rise without permanent damage. It also tells us that the dough can be used within a fairly short window, maybe considerably shorter than the five-hour window you used.

Based on the numbers you provided, the weight loss of the pizza was about 6.71%.

Can you compare the latest pizza with earlier versions?

Peter
« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 06:33:07 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #867 on: December 24, 2012, 06:45:28 PM »
Buddy’s extra sauce might even be a little bit thinner than what I made.  The color seem to match up pretty good with Buddy’s sauce.  Buddy’s extra sauce is on the left.

Norma,

I am away from home for the Xmas holiday and don't have my calculations in front of me but if the amount of water is increased, it will increase the amount of sauce and, at the same time, the amount of salt and sodium will decrease in value. If my memory is correct, the net effect of this is to move the sodium nutrition number a bit closer to the Buddy's sodium Nutrition data. If Buddy's is using the Stanislaus SuperDolce tomato product, the results shouldn't change that much since the SuperDolce product in the #10 can size weighs only two ounces more than the #10 can size of the Saporito Heavy Pizza Sauce with Fresh Basil (or four more ounces than the #10 7/11s).
Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #868 on: December 24, 2012, 06:53:10 PM »
Norma,

The spacing of the poppy seeds in the photo you showed suggests a rise in the Buddy's emergency clone dough of about 536%, or better than a quintupling of the dough. If that is correct, than it suggests that the dough can tolerate a lot of rise without permanent damage. It also tells us that the dough can be used within a fairly short window, maybe considerably shorter than the five-hour window you used.

Based on the numbers you provided, the weight loss of the pizza was about 6.71%.

Can you compare the latest pizza with earlier versions?

Peter

Peter,

That sure was a lot, if the Buddy’s emergency clone dough fermented that much.  It didn’t seem to me that any damage was done to the dough.  I have four slices to reheat and will report on them when I do the reheat.  I wanted to bring some slices home for a reheat to see if the sauce changes any in the reheat.  I think the dough could have been used a lot sooner.  I would have even put the dough ball into the steel pan sooner if I wasn’t busy making other pizzas. 

To compare what I thought of the Buddy’s emergency clone dough pizza today, I thought it was very good.  The bottom crust had a nice crispiness and the caramelized edges are always good.  The crumb was good and light.  I really liked the taste of the Margherita Coarse Slice Pepperoni and also the blend of the sauces.  I even liked only pepper and oregano as the ingredients in the sauce blend.  I didn’t use any salt in the tomato blend this week.  The taste of the sauce was a lot fresher tasting then when on the Buddy’s pizza I purchased.  I think the double bake somehow made the sauce on Buddy’s pizza change. 

I really don’t know if I like this Buddy’s emergency clone pizza better than last week though. 

I will report on the other Buddy’s clone pizzas I made tomorrow or the next day, but somehow I am not getting as much lift in them during the bake (even with using the Hatco Unit for tempering).

Thank you for telling me what the weight loss was from the final bake.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #869 on: December 24, 2012, 07:03:13 PM »
Norma,

I am away from home for the Xmas holiday and don't have my calculations in front of me but if the amount of water is increased, it will increase the amount of sauce and, at the same time, the amount of salt and sodium will decrease in value. If my memory is correct, the net effect of this is to move the sodium nutrition number a bit closer to the Buddy's sodium Nutrition data. If Buddy's is using the Stanislaus SuperDolce tomato product, the results shouldn't change that much since the SuperDolce product in the #10 can size weighs only two ounces more than the #10 can size of the Saporito Heavy Pizza Sauce with Fresh Basil (or four more ounces than the #10 7/11s).
Peter

Peter,

I know we are trying to decrease the amount of sodium (salt) closer to Buddy‘s Nutrition Facts.  I also know if the amount of water is increased it would increase the amount of sauce and the amount of salt and sodium would decrease in value.  I didn’t know if Buddy’s is using the Stanislaus Super Docle tomato product that the results would not change that much.  I didn’t how much the Stanislaus Super Docle weighed either. 

Do you want me to try and get a sample of the Stanislaus Super Docle tomato product, or for now just keep experimenting with what I am?

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #870 on: December 24, 2012, 08:22:12 PM »
Do you want me to try and get a sample of the Stanislaus Super Docle tomato product, or for now just keep experimenting with what I am?
Norma,

It is up to you as to whether you should give the SuperDolce product a try. However, if we assume that the Buddy's Original Pizza Sauce contains noticeable tomato skin and fresh basil (added at the Stanislaus processing facility), then most realistically that means the 7/11s combined with either the Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce with Fresh Basil or the Super Dolce product. Otherwise, it would have to be some customized product from Stanislaus. I don't really see any other possibility looking at the standard tomato products at the Stanislaus website that are intended to be used to make pizza sauce. I suppose that Buddy's could be using both the Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce and the Super Dolce product along with the 7/11s, but that would strike me as illogical. I also don't think that Buddy's annual sales are high enough to warrant a customized product from Stanislaus.

I think an interesting comparison against your Buddy's sample of their Original Pizza Sauce would be the 7/11s combined with the Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce with Fresh Basil on the one hand, and the 7/11s combined with the Super Dolce product on the other hand, with the proper amount of water in both cases. Such comparisons might be instructive on the matter of the sweetness element of the Buddy's Original Pizza Sauce.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #871 on: December 24, 2012, 08:55:39 PM »
Norma,

It is up to you as to whether you should give the SuperDolce product a try. However, if we assume that the Buddy's Original Pizza Sauce contains noticeable tomato skin and fresh basil (added at the Stanislaus processing facility), then most realistically that means the 7/11s combined with either the Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce with Fresh Basil or the Super Dolce product. Otherwise, it would have to be some customized product from Stanislaus. I don't really see any other possibility looking at the standard tomato products at the Stanislaus website that are intended to be used to make pizza sauce. I suppose that Buddy's could be using both the Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce and the Super Dolce product along with the 7/11s, but that would strike me as illogical. I also don't think that Buddy's annual sales are high enough to warrant a customized product from Stanislaus.

I think an interesting comparison against your Buddy's sample of their Original Pizza Sauce would be the 7/11s combined with the Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce with Fresh Basil on the one hand, and the 7/11s combined with the Super Dolce product on the other hand, with the proper amount of water in both cases. Such comparisons might be instructive on the matter of the sweetness element of the Buddy's Original Pizza Sauce.

Peter


Peter,

I understand if we assume that Buddy’s Original Pizza Sauce contains noticeable tomato skins and fresh basil the that probably means that the 7/11s with the Saporito Heavy Pizza Sauce with the Fresh Basil or the Super Dolce product with the Saporito Heavy Pizza Sauce with the Fresh Basil would be used.  I really don’t think Buddy’s is big enough to use more than 2 sauces, but then we never know. 

I will try to get a sample of the Super Dolce product to do the comparison with what I am trying now.  I think I will have to add more water next week to get the 7/11s and the Saporito Heavy Pizza Sauce thinner.  I also noticed today that the sauce tasted a lot more like Buddy’s extra sauce today.  That probably was from letting it sit overnight. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #872 on: December 25, 2012, 07:58:24 AM »
This is the report on some of the other Buddy’s clone pizzas made yesterday that had 0.60% IDY in the dough formulation for a one day cold ferment.  I had wanted to try 0.80% IDY for a bigger batch of dough, but forgot to figure out that out on the expanded dough calculation tool before I went to market on Sunday to mix the dough, so I had to use the print out sheet I had at market using 0.60% IDY.  I am not sure if I had better results when using 0.80% in a one day cold fermented Buddy’s clone dough, but I think I did.

The first doughs were tempered in the Hatco Unit at 105 degrees F and the first Buddy’s clone pizzas were ready to be made at about 10:15 AM yesterday.  I didn’t weigh the 20 slices coarse grind pepperoni on the two pizzas I made with pepperoni, but the weighs after the final bake were 585 grams for the first Buddy’s clone pizza made with the coarse grind pepperoni and the second Buddy’s clone pizza made with the coarse grind pepperoni was 570 grams.  I think there were too many variables in the two pizzas though to really think those weighs would matter.  For the first pizza 4 ounces of sauce was added after the bake and the second pizza the pepperoni was put on top of the other dressings.  8 ounces of AMPI mild cheddar and the two mozzarellas were scaled.  All the same doughs were scaled at 9 ounces.

I also made some veggie Buddy’s clone pizzas and some cheese Buddy‘s clone pizzas, but didn’t take any pictures of those.

I did bake two Buddy’s clone pizzas at one time yesterday and that seemed to work well.

What I am concerned about is that I am not getting enough lift in the bake with these Buddy’s clone pizzas.  My customers do like them and seem interested in the Buddy’s clone pizzas, but I want to try and get more lift during the bake.

I was also thinking over about how much the Buddy’s clone emergency dough fermented by the measurements of the poppy seeds spacings and wonder if since this is a higher hydration dough and since I used a bigger plastic container yesterday to put the dough ball in if somehow the poppy seeds spacing might have been flawed, since the dough isn’t really balled tightly to begin with.  I would think if the dough ball would have been balled tighter maybe I wouldn’t have the same results when using the poppy seed trick.  I could be wrong though on thinking that though.

The last attempt on the Buddy’s clone pizza was put into a Buddy’s pizza box.  :-D

Dave, my friend at market, gave me a holiday card made by him yesterday.  He was inspired by Gary Larson among other cartoonists in some of his many drawings and cartoons.  Dave always makes me laugh with his "little off" sense of humor.  Dave is a man of many talents.  Dave really likes the Buddy’s clone pizzas. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #873 on: December 25, 2012, 08:04:32 AM »
Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #874 on: December 25, 2012, 08:06:06 AM »
Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #875 on: December 25, 2012, 08:07:47 AM »
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #876 on: December 25, 2012, 10:11:17 AM »
Norma,

I think maybe you have reached the point, or are close to it, where you have to make a business decision. For example, I think you have demonstrated that you can make a 1-3 hour, high-yeast, emergency Buddy's clone dough at market. A good part of that effort was to try to reverse engineer and clone the Buddy's dough and pizzas and, in that respect, you have done an exemplary job. However, if such a dough is not practical at market, you might now want to shift your attention to a dough formulation and related dough preparation and management that is better suited to market. That might be a cold fermented version of the Buddy's dough such as you have tested on several occasions.

At the moment, I am only aware of one pizza operator that makes a cold fermented Detroit style dough. That is Via 313. I don't know their dough formulation, and particularly the hydration the Hunt brothers use to make the dough, and also the amount of yeast, but if you look at the photos of their pizzas, such as the ones shown at their website (http://via313.com/) and in Yelp reviews (http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/via-313-pizza-austin?select=quBst2A8N8Sx8gMCl7E7Jg#571KK5bmUn7n9fZZAva86g), they do not strike me as having a great deal of height in the finished crust.  In the absence of insider information, I have no explanation for why the Via313 pizzas do not have especially thick crusts, at least in my opinion after having looked at a lot of photos of their pizzas.

If you decide to concentrate now on a cold fermented version of the Buddy's dough, you will want to determine all of the relevant parameters. These include the duration of the cold fermentation period, when you want to use the dough to make pizzas, and what resources you will have available to make and manage the dough. Once these parameters have been defined, they will be used to determine what hydration to use, how much yeast to use, and what finished dough temperature to target. In this latter regard, it is possible that the finished dough temperature you used for your last batch of dough balls was too low, and may have caused you to rely more on your Hatco unit to compensate.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 25, 2012, 10:16:00 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #877 on: December 25, 2012, 10:52:06 AM »
Looks great to me Norma! Even though these may not have been as tall as you've been making, that crumb shot in pic 8 looks killer. Almost identical to the Via313 pics Peter linked to...delicious looking pizza you are making and I was glad to see you try one with pepperoni on top. You were right, it's not a "cupping" type pepperoni.
The Buddy's box was a cool touch and your friend Dave's card is real cool too.  ;D

Merry Christmas Norma....thanks for all your hard work!!  :chef:
Bob
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #878 on: December 25, 2012, 11:43:04 AM »
Norma,

I think maybe you have reached the point, or are close to it, where you have to make a business decision. For example, I think you have demonstrated that you can make a 1-3 hour, high-yeast, emergency Buddy's clone dough at market. A good part of that effort was to try to reverse engineer and clone the Buddy's dough and pizzas and, in that respect, you have done an exemplary job. However, if such a dough is not practical at market, you might now want to shift your attention to a dough formulation and related dough preparation and management that is better suited to market. That might be a cold fermented version of the Buddy's dough such as you have tested on several occasions.

At the moment, I am only aware of one pizza operator that makes a cold fermented Detroit style dough. That is Via 313. I don't know their dough formulation, and particularly the hydration the Hunt brothers use to make the dough, and also the amount of yeast, but if you look at the photos of their pizzas, such as the ones shown at their website (http://via313.com/) and in Yelp reviews (http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/via-313-pizza-austin?select=quBst2A8N8Sx8gMCl7E7Jg#571KK5bmUn7n9fZZAva86g), they do not strike me as having a great deal of height in the finished crust.  In the absence of insider information, I have no explanation for why the Via313 pizzas do not have especially thick crusts, at least in my opinion after having looked at a lot of photos of their pizzas.

If you decide to concentrate now on a cold fermented version of the Buddy's dough, you will want to determine all of the relevant parameters. These include the duration of the cold fermentation period, when you want to use the dough to make pizzas, and what resources you will have available to make and manage the dough. Once these parameters have been defined, they will be used to determine what hydration to use, how much yeast to use, and what finished dough temperature to target. In this latter regard, it is possible that the finished dough temperature you used for your last batch of dough balls was too low, and may have caused you to rely more on your Hatco unit to compensate.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for the links to Via 313 pictures, so I could look at them again.  I had forgotten really how high they looked in height and although I haven’t seen Via 313 pizzas in person, they do look similar in height to my pizzas from the dough that is cold fermented.  I think from an earlier post on this thread by another member that Via 313 is also using more dough in weight than I am right now, but really don't think that would make much of any difference in the final bake height.

I have to think about what the relevant parameters might be for a cold fermented dough at market.  I do know the dough would have to be cold fermented for one day, because there are too many variables in the market temperatures throughout the year to try something else.  I didn’t think about my finished dough temperature might have been too low in my last batch.  I was only thinking about mixing the dough the fastest way I could.  I know you are away for the Xmas holidays now, so I don’t expect any help for you.  I would like a Detroit style pizza that is higher in height than what I am getting now from a cold fermented dough.

Norma
« Last Edit: December 26, 2012, 08:30:40 AM by norma427 »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #879 on: December 25, 2012, 11:50:33 AM »
Looks great to me Norma! Even though these may not have been as tall as you've been making, that crumb shot in pic 8 looks killer. Almost identical to the Via313 pics Peter linked to...delicious looking pizza you are making and I was glad to see you try one with pepperoni on top. You were right, it's not a "cupping" type pepperoni.
The Buddy's box was a cool touch and your friend Dave's card is real cool too.  ;D

Merry Christmas Norma....thanks for all your hard work!!  :chef:
Bob

Bob,

The Buddy’s clone pizzas are good in the crumb texture with the cold ferment, but I really don’t think customers would like the lower bake heights if they saw Detroit style pizzas that were higher in bake heights.  It might just be me, but I like the higher bake heights. 

The coarse grind pepperoni is very good, at least in my opinion.

I will use the Buddy’s box again.  ;D Dave is also a cool friend to have.   8)

Merry Christmas to you too!  :)

Norma
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