Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!

[TXCraig1]

Norma,

If I recall correctly, you previously experienced the phenomenon of the finished crust sinking where the sauce racing stripes were put down. It is almost like a mattress sinking where a person is lying on it. There may be several explanations for what you experienced but one simple test that comes to mind to see if it was the weight of the sauce that was responsible for the sinking effect is to replace the 4 ounces of sauce that you have been using with 4 ounces of something else of similar consistency, such as finely diced cooked mushrooms or peppers that are also laid down in stripes. However, such a test might not be dispositive if you cannot replicate the condition of the dough that ended up sinking under the sauce, either before or after baking.

Peter

Zane commented to me that he sauces post-bake because saucing before baking causes the crust to sink (or not rise as much). I've noticed the same thing in my limited experience with Sicilian (one time I had the bright idea to sacue mid-bake and ended up with one giant top-to-bottom gum line). I really like the fresher flavor of the unbaked sauce as well, so saucing after works out very well for me.

CL

[Chicago Bob]

Norma,

If I recall correctly, you previously experienced the phenomenon of the finished crust sinking where the sauce racing stripes were put down. It is almost like a mattress sinking where a person is lying on it. There may be several explanations for what you experienced but one simple test that comes to mind to see if it was the weight of the sauce that was responsible for the sinking effect is to replace the 4 ounces of sauce that you have been using with 4 ounces of something else of similar consistency, such as finely diced cooked mushrooms or peppers that are also laid down in stripes. However, such a test might not be dispositive if you cannot replicate the condition of the dough that ended up sinking under the sauce, either before or after baking.

Peter

Or maybe just try laying the stripes down the opposite direction....3 short ones instead of 2 long ones? Just to test...

[norma427]

Norma,

If I recall correctly, you previously experienced the phenomenon of the finished crust sinking where the sauce racing stripes were put down. It is almost like a mattress sinking where a person is lying on it. There may be several explanations for what you experienced but one simple test that comes to mind to see if it was the weight of the sauce that was responsible for the sinking effect is to replace the 4 ounces of sauce that you have been using with 4 ounces of something else of similar consistency, such as finely diced cooked mushrooms or peppers that are also laid down in stripes. However, such a test might not be dispositive if you cannot replicate the condition of the dough that ended up sinking under the sauce, either before or after baking.

Peter

Peter,

Yes, I did previously experience the phenomenon of the finished crust sinking where the sauce racing stripes were put down sometimes.  I agree on your analogy of what is happening with the sauce is something like when a mattress is sinking when a person is lying on it unless it is a firm mattress.  If you look at the one pizza I made yesterday without any sauce, (the one with the spinach, diced red peppers and grape tomatoes) the crumb didn’t sink in middle of that one at all, but there still is a marked decrease in the height of the edges to the middle of the top crust.  I wonder how real Buddy’s pizzas look in the crumb and if their crumbs are lower too where the sauce if applied.  The extra sauce Buddy’s sent me sure wasn’t thick and it makes me wonder more really how much sauce Buddy’s applies.

I also forgot to post the picture of what the dough ball looked like in the plastic bag after fermenting all day.

Norma

[norma427]

Zane commented to me that he sauces post-bake because saucing before baking causes the crust to sink (or not rise as much). I've noticed the same thing in my limited experience with Sicilian (one time I had the bright idea to sacue mid-bake and ended up with one giant top-to-bottom gum line). I really like the fresher flavor of the unbaked sauce as well, so saucing after works out very well for me.

CL

Craig,

Thanks for posting what Zane told you and also how you like the fresher taste of the unbaked sauce on your Detroit-style pizzas.  If you were me though, what would you really do?  What I mean is when I did apply the sauce post bake, I noticed when cutting the pizza that the sauce wanted to spread more and then be more runny when I tried to put it on something to try and sell it.  Most of my slices also need a reheat when I sell them.  I wonder what Zane’s pizzas look like when he cuts them.  Did you apply your sauce thick or thin? 

Norma

[norma427]

Or maybe just try laying the stripes down the opposite direction....3 short ones instead of 2 long ones? Just to test...

Bob,

I can test your idea, but also want to get to the bottom of what I really want to do about this.  So far customers aren't complaining about the crumb being lower where the sauce is and the slices still taste okay.

Norma

[norma427]

I also had problems with racing stripes that were applied in my Sicilian pizzas something like at Reply 42 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg178749.html#msg178749 and those racing stripes were applied diagonally.  Some places I didn’t have problems with those stripes such as at Reply 68 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg180382.html#msg180382 and maybe like on Reply 99 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg181838.html#msg181838  After looking though that thread I think I had about the same problems with the sauce sometimes and that was a lower hydration dough.

Norma

[Chicago Bob]

I have a curious question for ya'll here. Would you say that the relatively lower bake temp of these pizzas can only support a certain amount of lift/height before the crumb simply can't support it and you then loose the "openness" and the crumb then becomes more dense to get a higher height on the pie? Is it the amount of heat that does this or the dough recipe itself?
I'm noticing this on Norma's pie's and am just trying to learn/understand what is going on here...thanks.
Bob

[Ev]

I recently made a discovery, quite accidentally, concerning the topic of dough sag where the sauce is applied. I made to pizzas but had only a little shredded cheddar and mozz to use. I did, however have some sliced provolone, which I applied first, completely covering the dough, followed by the shredded cheeses and finally the sauce. The result was no or little sag, which I attribute to the wide surface of the provolone being able to support more weight than shredded cheese alone. The provolone also helped eliminate any gum line or sogginess. The pictures sort of show the result but are'nt really that clear. I only photographed this one slice, which was a next-day reheat in the wfo.

[norma427]

I recently made a discovery, quite accidentally, concerning the topic of dough sag where the sauce is applied. I made to pizzas but had only a little shredded cheddar and mozz to use. I did, however have some sliced provolone, which I applied first, completely covering the dough, followed by the shredded cheeses and finally the sauce. The result was no or little sag, which I attribute to the wide surface of the provolone being able to support more weight than shredded cheese alone. The provolone also helped eliminate any gum line or sogginess. The pictures sort of show the result but are'nt really that clear. I only photographed this one slice, which was a next-day reheat in the wfo.

Steve,

Your discovery is quite interesting of using sliced provolone cheese first and the no or little sag in the final bake.  How much cheeses in total weight do you think you used for a whole pie and did you like the provolone taste on the Detroit style pizza?  Also what formulation did you use?

Your slice look quite tasty! 

Norma

[norma427]

I was looking for pictures of Buddy’s pizza, or for a close up slice on Google images, even though I had looked many times before.  This is what I found.

http://citymitten.com/2010/09/17/detroit-buddys-pizza/buddys3/

http://www.worstpizza.com/2009/07/buddys/

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/articles/2012/04/10/news/doc4f849d4486f32530686279.txt

http://www.michigan.org/blog/guest-blogger/all-square-a-history-of-detroit-style-pizza/

http://www.pizzareports.com/content/175-Buddy-s-Pizza-Detroit-MI

http://dallasduo.blogspot.com/2012/11/friday-night-pizza-michigan-style.html

http://www.detroitmommies.com/2011/12/family-night-at-buddy%E2%80%99s-pizza/

http://www.pizzareports.com/content/

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine-Blogs/What-Penny-Eats/October-2010/Pizza-Buddy-039s-in-Detroit/

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/09/livonia-michigan-mi-great-detroit-style-pizza-at-buddys.html

http://unvegan.com/reviews/back-home-at-buddys/

http://www.foodspotting.com/reviews/914830

There are a lot more pictures on Google images of Buddy’s pizza, but I must be doing something wrong, because none of the pictures I looked at look as sunken under the sauce like some of my Buddy’s clones did.  My crumb doesn’t even look the same.

I didn’t see this before on Slice, but I find the Baker’s edge pan interesting for a Detroit style pizza.

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2012/01/how-to-make-pizza-in-an-all-edge-brownie-pan.html

Norma

[Ev]

Norma, I had a 8oz piece of mild white cheddar which I diced by hand because I didn't have my shredder with me, and a small handful of shredded mozz., maybe 5 oz or so. That was divided between 2 pizzas, each of which had, I think, 3 slices of provolone. The flavor was pretty good but I would have liked something a little stronger/sharper. The dough was Occident, 70% HR., .6%IDY., 1.75% salt. RT for a couple hrs. and in the pans a couple more.

[TXCraig1]

Craig,

Thanks for posting what Zane told you and also how you like the fresher taste of the unbaked sauce on your Detroit-style pizzas.  If you were me though, what would you really do?  What I mean is when I did apply the sauce post bake, I noticed when cutting the pizza that the sauce wanted to spread more and then be more runny when I tried to put it on something to try and sell it.  Most of my slices also need a reheat when I sell them.  I wonder what Zane’s pizzas look like when he cuts them.  Did you apply your sauce thick or thin?  

Norma

If sagging dough is a problem, perhaps cook the sauce down some and then apply post bake? Steve's sliced cheese discovery also makes a lot of sense to me. It could be done with any cheese I suspect. It might be just the answer you've been looking for in your situation which is different from a traditional pizzeria selling DS that wouldn't need to hold and reheat slices. One other thing to consider would be to sauce the slices after reheating them.

CL

[norma427]

Norma, I had a 8oz piece of mild white cheddar which I diced by hand because I didn't have my shredder with me, and a small handful of shredded mozz., maybe 5 oz or so. That was divided between 2 pizzas, each of which had, I think, 3 slices of provolone. The flavor was pretty good but I would have liked something a little stronger/sharper. The dough was Occident, 70% HR., .6%IDY., 1.75% salt. RT for a couple hrs. and in the pans a couple more.

Thanks Steve! 

Norma

[norma427]

If sagging dough is a problem, perhaps cook the sauce down some and then apply post bake? Steve's sliced cheese discovery also makes a lot of sense to me. It could be done with any cheese I suspect. It might be just the answer you've been looking for in your situation which is different from a traditional pizzeria selling DS that wouldn't need to hold and reheat slices. One other thing to consider would be to sauce the slices after reheating them.

CL

Craig,

The sagging dough has been a problem for me sometimes.  Maybe I will try Steve’s discovery.  Thanks for your other ideas, I might also try them. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Do you have an example where you used brick cheese in diced, rather than shredded, form and where the areas under the sauce did not sink?

I do not ever recall reading that Buddy's cooks its sauce. As for putting the sauce on after baking, the only pizza operators that I can recall that do that are Via 313 (as Craig reiterated recently), the Detroit Style Pizza Co (http://detroit.ourcityradio.com/food-and-drink/world-champion-pizza-maker-to-launch-detroit-style-pizza-co) and Klausie's (http://www.newraleigh.com/articles/archive/step-into-the-van-with-klausies-pizza/). Unlike Buddy's, they all use deck ovens. Maybe there is a pattern here. I might add that Klausie's also does a double bake.

Peter

[jeff v]

Jeff (jeff v) was kind enough to send me some Weyauwega brick cheeses to try on some Buddy’s clone pizzas.  I received the Weyauwega mild brick cheese and the Weyauwega aged brick cheese today when I returned from market.  Jeff had the Weyauwega brick cheese packaged very well and the brick cheeses arrived in very good shape.

Thanks so much Jeff for sending me the Weyauwega brick cheeses to try on my Buddy’s clone attempts.  I appreciate it very much what you did. 

I am looking forward to trying the Weyauwega brick cheeses on some Buddy’s clone attempts next Tuesday. 

The Nutrition Facts for the Weyauwega brick cheese are posted in the second picture.

Norma

Hope you enjoy the cheese Norma. They sell at local markets around here, and I've always been impressed w how fresh their cheese is, so I thought you may like to try it.

I meant to send a note regarding the aged brick. It is pretty strong. If you're not a fan on stinky cheeses this may not be for you, and it's probably not the best pizza cheese. I sent it for comparisons sake (and fun   ) More info about regualr and aged brick including serving recommendations here- http://www.eatwisconsincheese.com/cheese/article.aspx?cid=8

[norma427]

Norma,

Do you have an example where you used brick cheese in diced, rather than shredded, form and where the areas under the sauce did not sink?

I do not ever recall reading that Buddy's cooks its sauce. As for putting the sauce on after baking, the only pizza operators that I can recall that do that are Via 313 (as Craig reiterated recently), the Detroit Style Puzza Co (http://detroit.ourcityradio.com/food-and-drink/world-champion-pizza-maker-to-launch-detroit-style-pizza-co) and Klausie's (http://www.newraleigh.com/articles/archive/step-into-the-van-with-klausies-pizza/). Unlike Buddy's, they all use deck ovens. Maybe there is a pattern here. I might add that Klausie's also does a double bake.

Peter

Peter,

The one time I tried diced cheese was on the Organic Sprouted Wheat Grain Wheat flour emergency dough with the Grande diced cheese blend at Reply 601 second picture down and the following posts. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg226153.html#msg226153

At Reply 618 I tried the Eddies brick cheese that I tried to dice http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg226389.html#msg226389  AtReply 654 I used the diced Eddie’s brick cheese one the one pizza and pictures on the following posts. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg226790.html#msg226790  That pizza crumb didn’t fall down from the weight of the sauce either

At Reply 633 is where I posted the three pizzas to be guessed about and none of them had crumbs that sank some from the sauce. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg226705.html#msg226705

At Reply 660 I didn’t have any problems either with the sauce. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg226797.html#msg226797

At Reply 668 and next posts no problems either. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg226807.html#msg226807

I can find more posts that I didn’t have problems with the sauce if you want me to.

I wonder what your theory is on a pattern if Buddy’s used to bake in a deck oven.  

I did see how Slice what I though might be a double bake of one of Klausie’s pictures with cheese applied.  I had wanted to ask you about if you also thought that Klausie’s might be doing a double bake, but never asked you, because I ask enough questions.

I think this past Monday I took a step backward instead of forward, even though the Buddy’s clone pizzas did taste okay.

Norma

[norma427]

Hope you enjoy the cheese Norma. They sell at local markets around here, and I've always been impressed w how fresh their cheese is, so I thought you may like to try it.

I meant to send a note regarding the aged brick. It is pretty strong. If you're not a fan on stinky cheeses this may not be for you, and it's probably not the best pizza cheese. I sent it for comparisons sake (and fun   ) More info about regualr and aged brick including serving recommendations here- http://www.eatwisconsincheese.com/cheese/article.aspx?cid=8

Jeff,

Thanks so much for sending me the two different brick cheeses to try.   I appreciate what you did very much!  I love fresh cheeses and am anxious to try out the two brick cheeses.  Lol, about the one aged brick being stinky.  I might add some mozzarellas with the aged brick, because I am not a big fan of Limburger cheese and if the aged brick is anything like Limburger, I could not eat it plain.    Maybe the earthy flavor of the aged brick cheese will be okay, but I will taste the aged brick first to see if any other cheeses need to be added.

Do you like the flavor of the aged brick cheese plain?

Thanks for the additional link!

Norma

[jeff v]

Do you like the flavor of the aged brick cheese plain?

It's not really my cup of tea plain. 

I have a friend who makes liver pâté and uses aged brick on the sandwiches. It's an acquired taste which I haven't acquired all the way yet. 

[norma427]

It's not really my cup of tea plain. 

I have a friend who makes liver pâté and uses aged brick on the sandwiches. It's an acquired taste which I haven't acquired all the way yet. 

Jeff,

Then the aged brick probably isn’t my cup of tea either plain.  I will sample a little of the aged brick cheese you sent me before I add additional mozzarellas though.  If Steve sees this post he will stay far away from me when I try the aged brick cheese.    I gave him regular Limburger cheese to try one time and he said he would never try any of my weird cheese experiments again. 

I am glad you friend has acquired the taste for aged brick cheese with liver pate.  He sure is stronger than I am.

I am sure the aged brick cheese will be great with other cheeses added.   

Norma