Author Topic: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 217163 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #950 on: January 01, 2013, 08:18:53 AM »
This post is to show how the poppy seed spacings changed (since Sunday to yesterday morning and then when I first tempered the dough ball), to tell when that Buddyís clone cheese pizza was baked from the dough ball that had the poppy seed on and other things I observed in this Buddyís clone cheese pizza.

The processing cap did have a lot of condensation on the top of the cap when I removed it from the deli case at 8:57 AM and then I used the measuring tape to measure the poppy seed spacings and put it back into the deli case.  I wanted to wait until last to use the dough ball with the poppy seeds on it to maybe see how long it would still be okay since I used more yeast in the formulation and a higher dough temperature. 

The dough ball was taken out of the deli case again at 12:51 PM and the poppy seed spacings were measured again and then the dough ball was spread out in the steel pan and put into the Hatco Unit at about 84 degrees F (I used a lower Hatco Unit temperature yesterday to see how that would temper the dough in the steel pans).  The lower Hatco Unit temperature did temper the dough balls enough in all of the dough balls I tempered in about 1 hr. yesterday. I dressed the dough with the poppy seed spacing at 2:06 PM.  It can be seen that the places the sauce was applied to did get lower in height about the bake.  The crumb and texture where the sauce was applied was okay, but not the height of the other crumb. It can been seen in the last picture how the crumb fell some after it cooled, when it was in the pizza box.  I had taken those two slices out of my heating holding cabinet then to take them home, because they were leftover.

It stumps me some as why when sauce is applied in some of my Buddyís clone pizzas why the crumb is lower in those places in some of the pizzas I made yesterday and then some were okay. 

At least I know that the Buddyís clone emergency dough with a higher final dough temperature and 1% IDY can be use later in the day from this experiment.  I also found out that when using the processing caps that the dough balls and doughs that tempered in the steel pans does not dry out. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #951 on: January 01, 2013, 08:20:33 AM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #952 on: January 01, 2013, 08:22:01 AM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #953 on: January 01, 2013, 09:01:29 AM »
This was the Buddyís clone coarse grind pepperoni and AMPI mild white cheddar and mozzarellas blended cheese pizza.  The dough ball was scaled to 9.5 ounces, the 20 coarse grind pepperoni slices weighed 1.366 ounces, the cheese blend weight was 8 ounces and the amount of sauce applied was 4 ounces.  The final baked weight after 5 minutes out of the oven was 519 grams.  The coarse grind pepperoni was put under the cheeses.  This Buddyís clone pizza was baked at about 10:53 AM.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #954 on: January 01, 2013, 09:02:37 AM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #955 on: January 01, 2013, 10:23:41 AM »
These are some of the other Buddyís clone pizzas that were made yesterday and how some of the doughs looked in the steel pans.  The first doughs were pressed out in the steel pans and put into the Hatco unit about 9:00 AM and were ready to bake in about an hour.  I am not sure what temperature to put the Hatco Unit at, but 84 degrees F did work okay in tempering the doughs in the steel pans for an hour yesterday.

Other stand holders and I werenít really busy yesterday and nobody really understood why (not even meat stand holders that were selling pork to use for our areas traditional pork and sauerkraut dinner today), but at least customers are liking the Buddyís clone pizzas when they try them.  I donít have much signage up at my pizza stand, or any signage around different places at market about the Buddyís clones (or as I call them Detroit style pizzas), but will make more signage up when I get all my methods down right and can make the Detroit style pizzas all okay.  I am also still deciding what different Detroit style pizzas to offer to potential customers.  At least the Buddyís clone pizzas, aka Detroit style pizzas, are taking hold better than some other styles of pies I tried to offer to potential customers before. 

The last picture is how the dough ball in the plastic bag fermented until the end of the day.  I didnít use it and then reballed it to freeze later, but Dave wanted to purchase that dough ball.

At the end of the day I do wipe out all the steel pans and grease them with MFB and put them into the oven for a little while to make sure they donít want to stick when I want to use them again. 

All in all, everything went pretty good yesterday, but there is still need for improvement.  I even put thinner and thicker sauces on different Buddyís clones and that doesnít seem to make too much of any differences.

The last picture of the Buddyís clone pizza got the highest in height.  It had 4 meats on, but two of the meats (salami and Cappicola ham were thinly sliced and put under the cheese blends.  I donít know why that Buddyís clone pizza got so high in height.  When it was in the steel pan before the bake, it almost reached the top of the steel pan.  :o

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #956 on: January 01, 2013, 10:25:24 AM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #957 on: January 01, 2013, 10:27:19 AM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #958 on: January 01, 2013, 10:29:37 AM »
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #959 on: January 01, 2013, 10:56:08 AM »
Norma,

If I recall correctly, you previously experienced the phenomenon of the finished crust sinking where the sauce racing stripes were put down. It is almost like a mattress sinking where a person is lying on it. There may be several explanations for what you experienced but one simple test that comes to mind to see if it was the weight of the sauce that was responsible for the sinking effect is to replace the 4 ounces of sauce that you have been using with 4 ounces of something else of similar consistency, such as finely diced cooked mushrooms or peppers that are also laid down in stripes. However, such a test might not be dispositive if you cannot replicate the condition of the dough that ended up sinking under the sauce, either before or after baking.

Peter

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #960 on: January 01, 2013, 11:12:50 AM »
Norma,

If I recall correctly, you previously experienced the phenomenon of the finished crust sinking where the sauce racing stripes were put down. It is almost like a mattress sinking where a person is lying on it. There may be several explanations for what you experienced but one simple test that comes to mind to see if it was the weight of the sauce that was responsible for the sinking effect is to replace the 4 ounces of sauce that you have been using with 4 ounces of something else of similar consistency, such as finely diced cooked mushrooms or peppers that are also laid down in stripes. However, such a test might not be dispositive if you cannot replicate the condition of the dough that ended up sinking under the sauce, either before or after baking.

Peter

Zane commented to me that he sauces post-bake because saucing before baking causes the crust to sink (or not rise as much). I've noticed the same thing in my limited experience with Sicilian (one time I had the bright idea to sacue mid-bake and ended up with one giant top-to-bottom gum line). I really like the fresher flavor of the unbaked sauce as well, so saucing after works out very well for me.

CL
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #961 on: January 01, 2013, 12:11:22 PM »
Norma,

If I recall correctly, you previously experienced the phenomenon of the finished crust sinking where the sauce racing stripes were put down. It is almost like a mattress sinking where a person is lying on it. There may be several explanations for what you experienced but one simple test that comes to mind to see if it was the weight of the sauce that was responsible for the sinking effect is to replace the 4 ounces of sauce that you have been using with 4 ounces of something else of similar consistency, such as finely diced cooked mushrooms or peppers that are also laid down in stripes. However, such a test might not be dispositive if you cannot replicate the condition of the dough that ended up sinking under the sauce, either before or after baking.

Peter
Or maybe just try laying the stripes down the opposite direction....3 short ones instead of 2 long ones? Just to test...
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #962 on: January 01, 2013, 12:39:54 PM »
Norma,

If I recall correctly, you previously experienced the phenomenon of the finished crust sinking where the sauce racing stripes were put down. It is almost like a mattress sinking where a person is lying on it. There may be several explanations for what you experienced but one simple test that comes to mind to see if it was the weight of the sauce that was responsible for the sinking effect is to replace the 4 ounces of sauce that you have been using with 4 ounces of something else of similar consistency, such as finely diced cooked mushrooms or peppers that are also laid down in stripes. However, such a test might not be dispositive if you cannot replicate the condition of the dough that ended up sinking under the sauce, either before or after baking.

Peter

Peter,

Yes, I did previously experience the phenomenon of the finished crust sinking where the sauce racing stripes were put down sometimes.  I agree on your analogy of what is happening with the sauce is something like when a mattress is sinking when a person is lying on it unless it is a firm mattress.  If you look at the one pizza I made yesterday without any sauce, (the one with the spinach, diced red peppers and grape tomatoes) the crumb didnít sink in middle of that one at all, but there still is a marked decrease in the height of the edges to the middle of the top crust.  I wonder how real Buddyís pizzas look in the crumb and if their crumbs are lower too where the sauce if applied.  The extra sauce Buddyís sent me sure wasnít thick and it makes me wonder more really how much sauce Buddyís applies.

I also forgot to post the picture of what the dough ball looked like in the plastic bag after fermenting all day.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #963 on: January 01, 2013, 12:46:42 PM »
Zane commented to me that he sauces post-bake because saucing before baking causes the crust to sink (or not rise as much). I've noticed the same thing in my limited experience with Sicilian (one time I had the bright idea to sacue mid-bake and ended up with one giant top-to-bottom gum line). I really like the fresher flavor of the unbaked sauce as well, so saucing after works out very well for me.

CL

Craig,

Thanks for posting what Zane told you and also how you like the fresher taste of the unbaked sauce on your Detroit-style pizzas.  If you were me though, what would you really do?  What I mean is when I did apply the sauce post bake, I noticed when cutting the pizza that the sauce wanted to spread more and then be more runny when I tried to put it on something to try and sell it.  Most of my slices also need a reheat when I sell them.  I wonder what Zaneís pizzas look like when he cuts them.  Did you apply your sauce thick or thin? 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #964 on: January 01, 2013, 12:48:21 PM »
Or maybe just try laying the stripes down the opposite direction....3 short ones instead of 2 long ones? Just to test...

Bob,

I can test your idea, but also want to get to the bottom of what I really want to do about this.  So far customers aren't complaining about the crumb being lower where the sauce is and the slices still taste okay.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #965 on: January 01, 2013, 01:04:22 PM »
I also had problems with racing stripes that were applied in my Sicilian pizzas something like at Reply 42 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg178749.html#msg178749 and those racing stripes were applied diagonally.  Some places I didnít have problems with those stripes such as at Reply 68 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg180382.html#msg180382 and maybe like on Reply 99 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg181838.html#msg181838  After looking though that thread I think I had about the same problems with the sauce sometimes and that was a lower hydration dough.

Norma
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #966 on: January 01, 2013, 01:04:56 PM »
I have a curious question for ya'll here. Would you say that the relatively lower bake temp of these pizzas can only support a certain amount of lift/height before the crumb simply can't support it and you then loose the "openness" and the crumb then becomes more dense to get a higher height on the pie? Is it the amount of heat that does this or the dough recipe itself?
I'm noticing this on Norma's pie's and am just trying to learn/understand what is going on here...thanks.
Bob
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Offline Ev

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #967 on: January 01, 2013, 01:22:07 PM »
I recently made a discovery, quite accidentally, concerning the topic of dough sag where the sauce is applied. I made to pizzas but had only a little shredded cheddar and mozz to use. I did, however have some sliced provolone, which I applied first, completely covering the dough, followed by the shredded cheeses and finally the sauce. The result was no or little sag, which I attribute to the wide surface of the provolone being able to support more weight than shredded cheese alone. The provolone also helped eliminate any gum line or sogginess. The pictures sort of show the result but are'nt really that clear. I only photographed this one slice, which was a next-day reheat in the wfo.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 01:23:59 PM by Ev »

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #968 on: January 01, 2013, 01:58:32 PM »
I recently made a discovery, quite accidentally, concerning the topic of dough sag where the sauce is applied. I made to pizzas but had only a little shredded cheddar and mozz to use. I did, however have some sliced provolone, which I applied first, completely covering the dough, followed by the shredded cheeses and finally the sauce. The result was no or little sag, which I attribute to the wide surface of the provolone being able to support more weight than shredded cheese alone. The provolone also helped eliminate any gum line or sogginess. The pictures sort of show the result but are'nt really that clear. I only photographed this one slice, which was a next-day reheat in the wfo.

Steve,

Your discovery is quite interesting of using sliced provolone cheese first and the no or little sag in the final bake.  8) How much cheeses in total weight do you think you used for a whole pie and did you like the provolone taste on the Detroit style pizza?  Also what formulation did you use?

Your slice look quite tasty!  ;D

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #969 on: January 01, 2013, 02:43:28 PM »
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #970 on: January 01, 2013, 03:32:25 PM »
Norma, I had a 8oz piece of mild white cheddar which I diced by hand because I didn't have my shredder with me, and a small handful of shredded mozz., maybe 5 oz or so. That was divided between 2 pizzas, each of which had, I think, 3 slices of provolone. The flavor was pretty good but I would have liked something a little stronger/sharper. The dough was Occident, 70% HR., .6%IDY., 1.75% salt. RT for a couple hrs. and in the pans a couple more.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #971 on: January 01, 2013, 04:30:06 PM »
Craig,

Thanks for posting what Zane told you and also how you like the fresher taste of the unbaked sauce on your Detroit-style pizzas.  If you were me though, what would you really do?  What I mean is when I did apply the sauce post bake, I noticed when cutting the pizza that the sauce wanted to spread more and then be more runny when I tried to put it on something to try and sell it.  Most of my slices also need a reheat when I sell them.  I wonder what Zaneís pizzas look like when he cuts them.  Did you apply your sauce thick or thin?  

Norma

If sagging dough is a problem, perhaps cook the sauce down some and then apply post bake? Steve's sliced cheese discovery also makes a lot of sense to me. It could be done with any cheese I suspect. It might be just the answer you've been looking for in your situation which is different from a traditional pizzeria selling DS that wouldn't need to hold and reheat slices. One other thing to consider would be to sauce the slices after reheating them.

CL
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #972 on: January 01, 2013, 05:05:43 PM »
Norma, I had a 8oz piece of mild white cheddar which I diced by hand because I didn't have my shredder with me, and a small handful of shredded mozz., maybe 5 oz or so. That was divided between 2 pizzas, each of which had, I think, 3 slices of provolone. The flavor was pretty good but I would have liked something a little stronger/sharper. The dough was Occident, 70% HR., .6%IDY., 1.75% salt. RT for a couple hrs. and in the pans a couple more.

Thanks Steve!  :)

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #973 on: January 01, 2013, 05:09:06 PM »
If sagging dough is a problem, perhaps cook the sauce down some and then apply post bake? Steve's sliced cheese discovery also makes a lot of sense to me. It could be done with any cheese I suspect. It might be just the answer you've been looking for in your situation which is different from a traditional pizzeria selling DS that wouldn't need to hold and reheat slices. One other thing to consider would be to sauce the slices after reheating them.

CL

Craig,

The sagging dough has been a problem for me sometimes.  Maybe I will try Steveís discovery.  Thanks for your other ideas, I might also try them.  :)

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #974 on: January 01, 2013, 05:15:24 PM »
Norma,

Do you have an example where you used brick cheese in diced, rather than shredded, form and where the areas under the sauce did not sink?

I do not ever recall reading that Buddy's cooks its sauce. As for putting the sauce on after baking, the only pizza operators that I can recall that do that are Via 313 (as Craig reiterated recently), the Detroit Style Pizza Co (http://detroit.ourcityradio.com/food-and-drink/world-champion-pizza-maker-to-launch-detroit-style-pizza-co) and Klausie's (http://www.newraleigh.com/articles/archive/step-into-the-van-with-klausies-pizza/). Unlike Buddy's, they all use deck ovens. Maybe there is a pattern here. I might add that Klausie's also does a double bake.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 02:30:52 PM by Pete-zza »


 

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