Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!

[Ev]

I ain't scared! It can't be as bad as that limburger, it just can't!

[oratio]

Norma,

I have been in contact with Mr. Randazzo at detroitstylepizza.co and he is willing to send a couple of Detroit style pizza pans overseas. I wonder which size you prefer using and why, and if you would recommend them over a standard deep baking pan. I am obviously not going to put them in use right away, but want to be sure to have the real deal when I do. I also wonder if you know or think that their pan grippers are any good. I might as well order them too, as they are hard or impossible to be found in my end of the world.

 - Mike

[norma427]

I ain't scared! It can't be as bad as that limburger, it just can't!

Steve,

I will wait to try the aged brick cheese that Jeff sent when you can come to market.  I know it sure can't be as bad as that darn Limburger cheese.  That Limburger cheese was foul tasting, even to me.   

I will also let you taste the aged brick cheese plain.  I might even get the aged brick cheese out of the fridge and taste it a little later today.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma,

I have been in contact with Mr. Randazzo at detroitstylepizza.co and he is willing to send a couple of Detroit style pizza pans overseas. I wonder which size you prefer using and why, and if you would recommend them over a standard deep baking pan. I am obviously not going to put them in use right away, but want to be sure to have the real deal when I do. I also wonder if you know or think that their pan grippers are any good. I might as well order them too, as they are hard or impossible to be found in my end of the world.

 - Mike

Mike,

I like both sizes of the Detroit Style Pizza Co. pans, but if I only had one choice I would go with the 8”x10” steel pans, because then you have crispy edges on all the sides.  I also would recommend the Detroit Style Pizza Co. steel pans over other deep dish pans.  I do have other deep dish pans made of steel and some not made of steel and I believe that Detroit Style Pizza Co. pans do bake the Detroit style of pizzas better than my other steel pans, or non steel baking pans.

I have two kinds of pan grippers, but I mostly just move my pans around in the oven at market, or at home, with tongs and then just take the pan out of the oven with pot holders.  It is up to you if you want to purchase the pan grippers.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I wonder what your theory is on a pattern if Buddy’s used to bake in a deck oven.  

Norma,

Since Buddy's has been using conveyor ovens for over 30 years, and absent any information or photos of how Buddy's applied the sauce on its pizzas when it used deck ovens, we will most likely never know the answer to the question of whether Buddy's put the sauce on its pizzas before or after baking. It would take one of the old timers who worked for Buddy's or knew their methods, such as someone like Loui Tourtois, to tell us. However, after noting that the the three pizza operators Via 313, the Detroit Style Pizza Co and Klausie's put down the sauce on their pizzas after baking the pizzas, and also noting Craig's comment that Via 313 puts the sauce on later to avoid the sinking crust problem (among other possible reasons, including freshness of flavor), I got to wondering whether it is possible that Buddy's does the same thing even with its conveyor ovens, and possibly for the same reason. It then dawned on me that I couldn't recall anything from my research on when Buddy's puts the sauce down on its pizzas. You might also recall that member steel_baker, who is no slouch when it comes to making pan style pizzas, insisted after sampling one of Buddy's pizzas that the sauce (and also the cheese) was placed on the pizza after baking. See, for example, the series of posts starting with Reply 186 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg92474/topicseen.html#msg92474. It seems to me that it would be a simple matter for Buddy's to put the sauce down on its pizzas once they come out of the conveyor oven. Mind you, I am not suggesting that this is the case. I am only raising the possibility. It may well be that their conveyor ovens avoid any problems with sinking crusts. We really don't have much information on the use of conveyor ovens to make a Detroit stlye pizza since only Buddy's and Jet's among the majors seem to be using conveyor ovens.

In your case, you may have to go back to the examples you provided where you made Buddy's clone pizzas that did not have the sinking crust problem. Since you made Buddy's clone pizzas with both shredded and diced cheeses without experiencing the sinking crust problem, that perhaps rules out the form (diced vs. shredded) of the cheese as the cause of the sinking crusts. Maybe you could try again to adapt to market the Buddy's clone dough formulation that you discussed starting at Reply 906 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg229345.html#msg229345. Your last Buddy's clone dough was subjected to more fermentation because of all of the elevated temperatures and an extended warm-up time before refrigerating and possibly those factors had an adverse effect on the final dough and crust.

As alternatives to the above, you can also play around with using Steve's cheese method or warmed/cooked sauces as Craig suggested even though those methods are not used by Buddy's to the best of my knowledge.

Peter

[oratio]

Thank you Norma,

I'll be ordering four 8”x10” pans, and grippers.

 - Mike

[TXCraig1]

A small metal spatula like this is also very handy.

For your first few bakes at least, it works well to use a knife to separate the crispy cheese edge of the pie from the pan. Be sure to let the pie cool for a couple minutes before you try to get it out, or it is really easy to tear it all up.

CL

[norma427]

Norma,

Since Buddy's has been using conveyor ovens for over 30 years, and absent any information or photos of how Buddy's applied the sauce on its pizzas when it used deck ovens, we will most likely never know the answer to the question of whether Buddy's put the sauce on its pizzas before or after baking. It would take one of the old timers who worked for Buddy's or knew their methods, such as someone like Loui Tourtois, to tell us. However, after noting that the the three pizza operators Via 313, the Detroit Style Pizza Co and Klausie's put down the sauce on their pizzas after baking the pizzas, and also noting Craig's comment that Via 313 puts the sauce on later to avoid the sinking crust problem (among other possible reasons, including freshness of flavor), I got to wondering whether it is possible that Buddy's does the same thing even with its conveyor ovens, and possibly for the same reason. It then dawned on me that I couldn't recall anything from my research on when Buddy's puts the sauce down on its pizzas. You might also recall that member steel_baker, who is no slouch when it comes to making pan style pizzas, insisted after sampling one of Buddy's pizzas that the sauce (and also the cheese) was placed on the pizza after baking. See, for example, the series of posts starting with Reply 186 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg92474/topicseen.html#msg92474. It seems to me that it would be a simple matter for Buddy's to put the sauce down on its pizzas once they come out of the conveyor oven. Mind you, I am not suggesting that this is the case. I am only raising the possibility. It may well be that their conveyor ovens avoid any problems with sinking crusts. We really don't have much information on the use of conveyor ovens to make a Detroit stlye pizza since only Buddy's and Jet's among the majors seem to be using conveyor ovens.

In your case, you may have to go back to the examples you provided where you made Buddy's clone pizzas that did not have the sinking crust problem. Since you made Buddy's clone pizzas with both shredded and diced cheeses without experiencing the sinking crust problem, that perhaps rules out the form (diced vs. shredded) of the cheese as the cause of the sinking crusts. Maybe you could try again to adapt to market the Buddy's clone dough formulation that you discussed starting at Reply 906 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg229345.html#msg229345. Your last Buddy's clone dough was subjected to more fermentation because of all of the elevated temperatures and an extended warm-up time before refrigerating and possibly those factors had an adverse effect on the final dough and crust.

As alternatives to the above, you can also play around with using Steve's cheese method or warmed/cooked sauces as Craig suggested even though those methods are not used by Buddy's to the best of my knowledge.

Peter

Peter,

Since I am curious about why the crusts sink in some of my Buddy’s clone and why some don’t, I think I will email Buddy’s pizza again to see if they put the sauce down before the bake, or if they did put the sauce down before the bake when they used deck ovens.  I might not get an answer, but it is at least worth a try to see if I might be doing something wrong.  Also the sauce on the half baked pizza I purchased from Buddy’s must have been put on before the bake, because I did see that.  

I can understand why Via 313, the Detroit Style Pizza Co. and Klausie’s put down the sauce on their pizzas after baking of the pizzas, because some of the time I still have the same problems of the crust sinking under the sauce.  

steel_baker also posted at Reply 189 that he thought there was first a bake with some of the cheese and then a bake with some soft cheese and sauce and that was a more runny cheese.  

PizzaHog even posted at Reply 191 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg92508.html#msg92508 that he was starting to believe there are some significant difference between Buddy’s locations in how they build and bake the pizzas.  PizzaHogs attempt in that post did look like a winner.  PizzaHog also says in post 196 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg92741.html#msg92741 that he did use a light sauce for his pizza tester.  PizzaHog also posted in Reply 199 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg92963.html#msg92963 that he only used 6 ounces of sauce for a 10”x14” Buddy’s clone pizza.  His sauce looked very thin.  How much sauce would that relate to a 8”x10” steel pan?  Maybe I am putting too much and too heavy of a sauce on my Buddy’s clones.  PizzaHog posted at Reply 203 he didn’t parbake the crust. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg93082.html#msg93082  PizzaHog’s TF is also lower than mine.  Do your Nutrition numbers show maybe less sauce is used?

What do you suggest for me to do in my next attempt.  Just try to get a lower final dough temperature, or also decrease the yeast amount since no salt is being used in my formulation?

I can also play around with using Steve’s method or warmed/cooked sauces as Craig suggested.  I just need some kind of plug adapter to be able to plug another appliance in at market, because all of my receptacle spaces are full.  I also need to create a space to put the warming device for the sauce.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Since I am curious about why the crusts sink in some of my Buddy’s clone and why some don’t, I think I will email Buddy’s pizza again to see if they put the sauce down before the bake, or if they did put the sauce down before the bake when they used deck ovens.  I might not get an answer, but it is at least worth a try to see if I might be doing something wrong.  Also the sauce on the half baked pizza I purchased from Buddy’s must have been put on before the bake, because I did see that.  

Norma,

If you haven't already sent the email, you might mention that your great-granddaughter liked the half-baked Buddy's pizza so much that she was begging for more, and that you would like to take a stab at making her something in an old cake pan to please her since you can't afford to order another Buddy's pizza. And, for that reason, and even though you are not much of a baker, you would like to know how to assemble the pizza and, in that context, whether the sauce should go one before the bake or after the bake, or whichever method Buddy's uses, keeping in mind that you are using a home oven which might be closer to the old Buddy's deck oven. If you get an answer that the sauce is put on after the bake in their conveyor oven, that would mean that there was a good reason for doing that. The reason might be because of the crust sinking problem.

The above is just my suggestion.

Peter

[Ev]

Oh what tangled web we weave....................  :-D

[Chicago Bob]

Peter the sitcom writer! 

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

steel_baker also posted at Reply 189 that he thought there was first a bake with some of the cheese and then a bake with some soft cheese and sauce and that was a more runny cheese.

I didn't want to divert our attention away from the sauce issue but it was clear just from looking at photos of Buddy's pizzas that there was some browning of the Buddy's cheese even though some photos showed less of the browning than others. Also, it would be impractical in a conveyor oven to do things in stages such as parbaking the crust with some cheese and then adding more cheese and, possibly, sauce at the end. There are tricks of the trade using conveyor ovens but generally you want to just run the pizzas through the oven in one pass. Adding sauce at the end of the run would not be much of an imposition on the process.  

PizzaHog also posted in Reply 199 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg92963.html#msg92963 that he only used 6 ounces of sauce for a 10”x14” Buddy’s clone pizza.  His sauce looked very thin.  How much sauce would that relate to a 8”x10” steel pan?  Maybe I am putting too much and too heavy of a sauce on my Buddy’s clones.

I have no idea where PizzaHog came up with his 6 ounces of sauce for the 8-square pizza. So, that doesn't mean that 4 ounces of sauce for the 4-square pizza is in error, especially given that the sauce is put on free-hand without weighing. But, if you translate 6 ounces for the 8-square to the 4-square, the amount of sauce would be 6 x (8 x 10)/(10 x 14) = 3.43 ounces of sauce. If you halved the amount of sauce, just as Buddy's says that it uses double the amount of dough and double the amount of cheese for the 8-square, then the corresponding amount of sauce for the 4-square based on Pizzahog's sauce number would be 6/2 = 3 ounces.

Do your Nutrition numbers show maybe less sauce is used?

Because Buddy's Nutrition data is based on approximations and averages, it is hard to say whether Buddy's is using less than 4 ounces of sauce for their 4-square pizzas. However, if I assumed either 3.43 ounces of sauce or 3 ounces of sauce for the 4-square, the sodium numbers would perhaps be a bit closer to Buddy's sodium numbers. But they were already close to the Buddy's sodium numbers with the 4 ounces of sauce. Since the sauce is applied volumetrically, there is no way to resolve the differences.

What do you suggest for me to do in my next attempt.  Just try to get a lower final dough temperature, or also decrease the yeast amount since no salt is being used in my formulation?

I think you could go with either the Buddy's dough formulation that worked so well for you at home or with the version that I suggested for market but being careful not to let the temperatures run away from you, either the finished dough temperature or the warm-up time. You might even skip the warm-up time since it can be made up for on the other end with your Hatco unit.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Oh what tangled web we weave....................  :-D

Steve,

I think you know Norma and me well enough by now to know that any collaboration between the two of us will end up with a tangled web .

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Peter the sitcom writer! 

Bob,

LOL. I am just curious to know at what point the customer service rep at Buddy's says: "Don't be so cheap and buy the GD kid another one of our pizzas."

Peter

[TXCraig1]

Steve,

I think you know Norma and me well enough by now to know that any collaboration between the two of us will end up with a tangled web .

Peter

Or more likely a tangled gluten matrix...

[Pete-zza]

Craig,

That is really funny. One of the saving graces of tangled webs and tangled gluten matrices is that no one (usually recipe hounds) interested in replicating a Buddy's pizza will be able to do it without reading all 50 pages and 994 posts (to date) of this thread, and maybe even the 25 pages and 486 posts at the Buddy's thread. They might even tackle your Detroit thread with 7 pages and 125 posts. Talk about working for your supper .

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

If you haven't already sent the email, you might mention that your great-granddaughter liked the half-baked Buddy's pizza so much that she was begging for more, and that you would like to take a stab at making her something in an old cake pan to please her since you can't afford to order another Buddy's pizza. And, for that reason, and even though you are not much of a baker, you would like to know how to assemble the pizza and, in that context, whether the sauce should go one before the bake or after the bake, or whichever method Buddy's uses, keeping in mind that you are using a home oven which might be closer to the old Buddy's deck oven. If you get an answer that the sauce is put on after the bake in their conveyor oven, that would mean that there was a good reason for doing that. The reason might be because of the crust sinking problem.

The above is just my suggestion.

Peter

Peter,

I already sent the email to Buddy’s right after I made my last post, but don’t despair, I didn’t reply to my first email about my great grand-daughter and obtaining the extra sauce the first time.  I had already sent a brand new email the last time, but don’t know if they recall my email name or not, or even if the same person reads emails.   If worst comes to worst, I will ask my daughter if I can use her email to send Buddy’s questions.  She is usually a good sport.  That was a great idea for an email though! 

Steve, Craig, and Bob are right that sometimes we manage to get into a tangled web when trying to work on something.   I usually try to swim till I sink, which happens sometimes. 

Thanks you guys for the laughs! 

Norma

[norma427]

Norma,
I didn't want to divert our attention away from the sauce issue but it was clear just from looking at photos of Buddy's pizzas that there was some browning of the Buddy's cheese even though some photos showed less of the browning than others. Also, it would be impractical in a conveyor oven to do things in stages such as parbaking the crust with some cheese and then adding more cheese and, possibly, sauce at the end. There are tricks of the trade using conveyor ovens but generally you want to just run the pizzas through the oven in one pass. Adding sauce at the end of the run would not be much of an imposition on the process.  
I have no idea where PizzaHog came up with his 6 ounces of sauce for the 8-square pizza. So, that doesn't mean that 4 ounces of sauce for the 4-square pizza is in error, especially given that the sauce is put on free-hand without weighing. But, if you translate 6 ounces for the 8-square to the 4-square, the amount of sauce would be 6 x (8 x 10)/(10 x 14) = 3.43 ounces of sauce. If you halved the amount of sauce, just as Buddy's says that it uses double the amount of dough and double the amount of cheese for the 8-square, then the corresponding amount of sauce for the 4-square based on Pizzahog's sauce number would be 6/2 = 3 ounces.
Because Buddy's Nutrition data is based on approximations and averages, it is hard to say whether Buddy's is using less than 4 ounces of sauce for their 4-square pizzas. However, if I assumed either 3.43 ounces of sauce or 3 ounces of sauce for the 4-square, the sodium numbers would perhaps be a bit closer to Buddy's sodium numbers. But they were already close to the Buddy's sodium numbers with the 4 ounces of sauce. Since the sauce is applied volumetrically, there is no way to resolve the differences.
I think you could go with either the Buddy's dough formulation that worked so well for you at home or with the version that I suggested for market but being careful not to let the temperatures run away from you, either the finished dough temperature or the warm-up time. You might even skip the warm-up time since it can be made up for on the other end with your Hatco unit.

Peter

Peter,

I understand that with a conveyor oven there are tricks of the trade, but generally pizzas are just put though the ovens.  I could see Buddy’s might be adding sauce at the end.

Thanks for telling me the numbers that would relate to what PizzaHog had posted. 

I also can understand there is no way to resolve the differences in the sauce weights since they are applied volumetrically. 

Norma

[norma427]

Norma,

I think you could go with either the Buddy's dough formulation that worked so well for you at home or with the version that I suggested for market but being careful not to let the temperatures run away from you, either the finished dough temperature or the warm-up time. You might even skip the warm-up time since it can be made up for on the other end with your Hatco unit.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your ideas of what to try next.

Norma

[Chicago Bob]

If this sauce was applied post-bake...I will eat my fedora. 

http://www.epicportions.com/2009/08/28/metro-detroits-best-pizza/