Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!

[oratio]

Craig,

thanks for the tip. I'll keep that in mind when I order next.

 - Mike

[norma427]

If this sauce was applied post-bake...I will eat my fedora. 

http://www.epicportions.com/2009/08/28/metro-detroits-best-pizza/

Point well taken Bob! 

Norma

[norma427]

To add more fuel to the fire.  

It makes me wonder if Loui’s pizza might be better or almost the same as a Buddy’s since Loui Tourtois was mentioned in a previous post.  I read the Yelp reviews (3 pages) for Loui’s pizza at http://www.yelp.com/biz/louis-pizza-hazel-park and found the comments from some of the posters that Loui’s Pizza is more like an old style Buddy’s pizza, but then some commentors don't like Loui‘s pizzas either.  I guess Loui’s still bakes in a deck oven.  Loui’s sauce looks to be applied thinly on top of the pizzas at Loui's website pictures of Gooey Cheese and Ham and Mushroom pizzas. http://louispizza.net/ At the Foodspotting post of Loui’s Hawaiian pizza with feta cheese, it looks like the sauce is thinner too. http://www.foodspotting.com/seoung/items/16849-italian-food  There are other pictures of Loui’s pizza on Foodspotting. http://www.foodspotting.com/people/trashanova , but then there are pictures like the ones of the Photo of Loui’s Pizza that the sauce does look thicker. http://www.foodspotting.com/people/trashanova I wonder how Loui’s applies their sauce.  On some pictures in Google images it does look like the sauce is applied after the bake.  It all takes me back to these pictures on http://www.lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=35487 and makes me wonder more about the sauce and when it is applied for different Buddy‘s pizzas.

Norma

[skinnygirl]

Hi Norma,
I have read all 51 pages and bazillion posts with hopes and dreams of recreating Buddy's pizza at home now that you have done all the hard work.  I live in Michigan and Buddy's pizza is my favorite - your picture posts look like you have hit it right on.  I have one question as I am new to this pizza thing - in the very beginning you listed directions on how you mixed the dough and you mentioned that you added the yeast, dry, to your flour and then added it to the water.  Is this standard for pizza dough, as opposed to acitivating the yeast first in the warm water?  You are my hero for figuring this all out!

Janet

[norma427]

Hi Norma,
I have read all 51 pages and bazillion posts with hopes and dreams of recreating Buddy's pizza at home now that you have done all the hard work.  I live in Michigan and Buddy's pizza is my favorite - your picture posts look like you have hit it right on.  I have one question as I am new to this pizza thing - in the very beginning you listed directions on how you mixed the dough and you mentioned that you added the yeast, dry, to your flour and then added it to the water.  Is this standard for pizza dough, as opposed to acitivating the yeast first in the warm water?  You are my hero for figuring this all out!

Janet

Janet,

Wow, if you read this whole thread you sure are determined to make a Buddy’s clone pizza.  I don’t think I have the Buddy’s clone exactly right, or at least not consistently.  That is why I am doing so many experiments. 

As to adding the IDY right to the flour, that is what I usually do and don‘t think I have ever had any problem with using that method.  I only activate ADY in warm water.

If you want to read what Tom Lehmann had to say about when to add ADY or IDY the post is at Reply 1 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21801.msg220619.html#msg220619  and at Reply 3  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16360.msg160246.html#msg160246

How will you be mixing the dough?  Since you have eaten Buddy’s pizzas and have gone to Buddy’s pizza do you know when they put the sauce on the pies?  Would it be before the bake them, or after the bake?

Best of luck making a Buddy’s clone pizza. 

Norma

[skinnygirl]

Thanks for the quick reply - I'll reread those two posts.  I used to know Wes (from Buddy's) quite well as I did all the signage for two of their restaurants.  I am trying to find someone who works or used to work there to weasel some information out of them.  I know that I have noticed a difference in their pizza over the last year and a half and I am wondering if it has to do with the conveyor ovens.  Still good but not as good as before.  If I had to guess I would say they sauce it after it comes out.  If I can get that information from a restaurant source I will most certainly pass it along.

j

[Pete-zza]

Still good but not as good as before.

Janet,

Can you elaborate on the differences you have noted?

Peter

[norma427]

Thanks for the quick reply - I'll reread those two posts.  I used to know Wes (from Buddy's) quite well as I did all the signage for two of their restaurants.  I am trying to find someone who works or used to work there to weasel some information out of them.  I know that I have noticed a difference in their pizza over the last year and a half and I am wondering if it has to do with the conveyor ovens.  Still good but not as good as before.  If I had to guess I would say they sauce it after it comes out.  If I can get that information from a restaurant source I will most certainly pass it along.

j

Janet,

That is interesting that you used to know Wes quite well and you did the signage for two of their restaurants.  I am sure other members and I would be interested if you could find someone who used to work there and get some more information about Buddy’s pizza.  I also am interested like Peter is as why the pizzas at Buddy’s aren’t as good as they were before.  Thanks so much for saying if you can find the information out about if they sauce their pizzas after the bake you will post about it.

Norma

[skinnygirl]

Norma, Peter,
...oh, my... what have I gotten myself in to???   
My initial feeling is that the pizza now is not as crisp as it used to be, especially in the middle section, almost soggy by time you get to your second slice.  My husband keeps telling me I should get a job there to learn how to make it.  I'll see if I can dig out Wes's contact info and see if he will share with me - it's been a while.

Have a good day!
jmg

[norma427]

Norma, Peter,
...oh, my... what have I gotten myself in to???   
My initial feeling is that the pizza now is not as crisp as it used to be, especially in the middle section, almost soggy by time you get to your second slice.  My husband keeps telling me I should get a job there to learn how to make it.  I'll see if I can dig out Wes's contact info and see if he will share with me - it's been a while.

Have a good day!
jmg

Janet,

This thread didn’t start out as a reverse engineering thread, or a clone thread, but that is the way it evolved.  When trying to duplicate a pizza business pizzas it can take a lot of work and we try to get as much information as we can.  Peter can do the complicated stuff, which I can't. 

Thanks for the information about your feeling that the pizza now is not as crisp as it used to be, especially in the middle.  Steve and I noticed that on the Buddy pizza I purchased, but thought it was just from us not reheating it right.

You will be able to tell us if you try one of the Buddy’s clone formulations if the Buddy’s clone tastes like a Buddy’s pizza used to.  Also if you ever purchase a real Buddy’s pepperoni and cheese pizza would you mind weighing it for us as soon as you could.  Don’t go to any special trouble, but if you ever do purchase a 4-square cheese and pepperoni pizza that information would be helpful.  Do you also know if Buddy’s sells any of their dough balls anymore.  I think they might have in the past, but don’t know about now.

Don’t get yourself into any problems with trying to get information from Wes.  It really isn’t necessary.

It really helps on a thread like this one, or the Buddy’s thread, if someone has tried their pizzas different times.  You don’t have to get involved if you don’t want to. 

Norma

[norma427]

Well, I just received an email from Buddy’s pizza and it doesn’t take us anywhere in finding out about when they apply the sauce.

This is what I had emailed Buddy’s and what they answered.

Thank you for your response in how long you have been using conveyor ovens. I have one other question I would like to ask you about when you used deck ovens, or even when you are using conveyor ovens now if you can answer it for me. I would like to know if you ever put your sauce on the pizzas before they are baked, or is the sauce put on after the pizzas are baked? I think your sauce tastes great, and it made me wonder just when the sauce is applied. If you do it different at different locations of your pizza business, that is fine too.

Thanks,

Norma

Happy New Year!

Because our recipes are proprietary, I am unable to provide you with answers about our recipes. I can tell you that all our locations use and prepare the same recipes.

We look forward to your next visit.

Have a wonderful weekend.

Norma

[Ev]

I made two more 8-square pies last night using Normas' emergency formula. This time I applied the sauce mid bake, once the cheese had melted, thus keeping the sauce out of contact with the dough. It worked very well. I had no sag issues at all. Unfortunately, these were for a party and I had no time for pictures. Sorry about that.

[TXCraig1]

Norma, Peter,
...oh, my... what have I gotten myself in to???   
My initial feeling is that the pizza now is not as crisp as it used to be, especially in the middle section, almost soggy by time you get to your second slice.  My husband keeps telling me I should get a job there to learn how to make it.  I'll see if I can dig out Wes's contact info and see if he will share with me - it's been a while.

Have a good day!
jmg

Please tell me more about what you mean by "crispy." Should the bottom of the crust be crispy or something else?

[norma427]

I made two more 8-square pies last night using Normas' emergency formula. This time I applied the sauce mid bake, once the cheese had melted, thus keeping the sauce out of contact with the dough. It worked very well. I had no sag issues at all. Unfortunately, these were for a party and I had no time for pictures. Sorry about that.

Thanks Steve for telling me what you tried.  Might have to try that on Tuesday too.

Norma

[Ev]

You're welcome Norma. Actually though, I lied , I did get one picture but it doesn't really show much.

[norma427]

You're welcome Norma. Actually though, I lied , I did get one picture but it doesn't really show much.

Thanks for the picture Steve.  They look great with no sag.     I know how you are about taking pictures and that is okay.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

It is usually not a good idea to try to draw conclusions from a single data point, but take a look at the fifth photo (underskirt) in the Sept. 2010 Slice article at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/09/livonia-michigan-mi-great-detroit-style-pizza-at-buddys.html. Then look at the fourth photo (crumb shot). I wonder whether the light colored, and not particularly crispy looking (with a lot of craters), bottom crust reflects a possible lowering of the hydration of the Buddy's dough, resulting in a more dense crumb. That could cause more of the bottom heat to pass through the dough to the cheese, sauce and toppings rather than darkening and crisping up the bottom crust, as it would if the dough had a higher hydration and acted more like an insulator than a conductor. Of course, factors like the amount of oil in the pan and the oven temperature can be factors although I would imagine that those steps are pretty well controlled. Or maybe the Livonia Buddy's location produces a somewhat different product.

What I like about the Slice photos is that you can see the bottom crust and crumb. Most of the photos of Buddy's pizzas I have seen tend to be of whole pizzas or external parts of the pizzas, like the corner slices. Sometimes, there are interior cross-sectional shots but often the melted cheese and sauce cascade over the top edge of the slices and conceal all or a good part of the crumb, such as shown, for example, at http://s3.amazonaws.com/foodspotting-ec2/reviews/59344/thumb_600.JPG?1275665870 and at http://greatlakesgazette.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/louis_0228.jpg.

Peter

[norma427]

It is usually not a good idea to try to draw conclusions from a single data point, but take a look at the fifth photo (underskirt) in the Sept. 2010 Slice article at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/09/livonia-michigan-mi-great-detroit-style-pizza-at-buddys.html. Then look at the fourth photo (crumb shot). I wonder whether the light colored, and not particularly crispy looking (with a lot of craters), bottom crust reflects a possible lowering of the hydration of the Buddy's dough, resulting in a more dense crumb. That could cause more of the bottom heat to pass through the dough to the cheese, sauce and toppings rather than darkening and crisping up the bottom crust, as it would if the dough had a higher hydration and acted more like an insulator than a conductor. Of course, factors like the amount of oil in the pan and the oven temperature can be factors although I would imagine that those steps are pretty well controlled. Or maybe the Livonia Buddy's location produces a somewhat different product.

Peter

Peter,

I just wonder how inconsistent Buddy’s pizza are when using a conveyor oven in that link you posted from Slice.  Those non crispy looking edges and the light bottom crust don’t look done enough for my liking.  The crumb looks denser than most of my crumbs too.  Maybe the conveyor oven wasn’t working that well on that particular day either.  I know someone mentioned also on the Buddy’s thread that they liked a second pass though the conveyor oven to get Buddy’s pizza to their liking.  I really don’t understand how conveyor oven work either.

As you saw in the pictures I posted from the half baked pizza I purchased from Buddy’s there were big craters in the bottom of the crust of that half baked pizza.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I know someone mentioned also on the Buddy’s thread that they liked a second pass though the conveyor oven to get Buddy’s pizza to their liking.  I really don’t understand how conveyor oven work either.

Norma,

I could be wrong but I do not recall anyone at the Buddy's thread saying that the pizzas could have two passes through the Buddy's conveyor, or at least not two full passes, which would mean a total bake time of around 25 minutes. That would result in a burnt pizza. What I do recall is that lufty said that he preferred about another 2 or 3 minutes bake time because he preferred a somewhat more well done pizza. See, for example, his comments (in italics) in Reply 318 at at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795. Some of the longer conveyors have openings along their length to allow workers to use bubble poppers and possibly reenter a bake pizza to allow a longer bake or to enter an unbaked pizza to get a shorter bake. With shorter length conveyors that do not have such openings, one might reenter a baked pizza via either the entry point or the exit point to allow for a longer bake.

From my research of infrared conveyor ovens, I learned that two of the major players are CTX (owned by Middlby Marshall) and QII Deck (formerly Q-Matic, I believe). You can see examples of QII Decks with the openings along their length at http://www.qiideck.com/pdf/The_Q_infrared_series.pdf. You can read more about the QII ovens at http://www.qiideck.com/home.htm. If you look along the bottom of the pages, you will also find links to YouTube videos. One of those videos shows a pan pizza being one of the types of pizzas that can be baked in their ovens.

In case you are wondering, I was not able through my searches to find what kind or model of infrared conveyor oven Buddy's uses.

Peter

[Chicago Bob]

I wonder what would happen if someone were to call in an order to Buddy's and ask them to put the sauce on after the pizza was cooked and then inadvertently said "you normally put the sauce on first,right?"

I think the response Norma received from her email inquiry concerning when sauce is applied was a bit over protective to say the least. I mean, c'mon..anyone standing in the restaurant should be able to see this, no?
Maybe someone has tipped them off to the inquisition?