Author Topic: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 233320 times)

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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1050 on: January 04, 2013, 02:19:22 PM »
I am somewhat like Buddy’s in I am not consistent.  :-D

Norma
See....you're just like the big time professionals Norma!   :chef:
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1051 on: January 04, 2013, 02:28:46 PM »
Norma,
To the best of my knowledge, the Buddy's menus have not changed yet. As of now, Buddy's has basically two menus, depending on the location. One includes appetizers (e.g., http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/Carryout101.pdf), one of which is Buddy's Garlic Bread, and the other (e.g., http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/Carryout110.pdf) does not include appetizers but offers Buddy's Bread, whch are breadsticks.
I fully agree with Craig and Bob on this one. You should rightfully be proud of your accomplishments with your Buddy's clone pizzas, but remember that pride goeth before the fall. I would rather stay below the radar on this.
You might be interested in knowing that the photos of the Buddy's pizza shown in the Slice article at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/09/livonia-michigan-mi-great-detroit-style-pizza-at-buddys.html were taken at the Buddy's Livonia location.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for the links to Buddy’s menus and you saying you didn’t see any changes yet.  I will post if Buddy’s says anything differently about their menus unless you find it first.

I know it is better to stay under the radar on the subject of Buddy’s clone experiments.  I also know whenever you lose pride in whatever you do you are then on the way down.  I don’t want to fail and be brought down when I don’t even have this Buddy’s clone stuff down right yet. 

Do you think the Buddy’s Livonia location is using the CTX conveyor oven, or is there another reason you referred to that Slice article?

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1052 on: January 04, 2013, 02:30:15 PM »
See....you're just like the big time professionals Norma!   :chef:

Bob,

I am nothing like the big time professionals.  I only do what I do at a very small pizza stand one day a week. 

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1053 on: January 04, 2013, 03:05:30 PM »
Do you think the Buddy’s Livonia location is using the CTX conveyor oven, or is there another reason you referred to that Slice article?

Norma,

I have no opinion on the oven being used at the Buddy's Livonia location. I referred to the Slice article only because the Buddy's pizza shown in the article did not seem to me to be the best representation of the Buddy's pizza. It could have been the oven but it might also have been an off day or an off time for the pizza maker.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1054 on: January 05, 2013, 11:39:26 AM »
Peter,

I wondered if you recall this picture of Mary Heller with the Buddy’s pizza being posted on the Buddy’s thread?  I came across it while looking for something else on Goggle images and when I clicked on it, the link lead me to this page   http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3783.260 on the Buddy’s thread.  I looked though the Buddy’s thread quickly and couldn’t find that picture, but I could have missed it.  Do you also know what is in the background of where Mary Heller is standing?  Is it a conveyor oven?

I had to enlarge the photo, so it is blurry, but that one slice looks pretty high in height to me.

I also looked though the Buddy’s thread a little more and do you recall  dicepackage posting at Reply 114 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg79558.html#msg79558 that the Buddy’s pizza at Point Plaza has the sauce underneath the cheese and at the Hamtracmck location the sauce is on top.  If that really is the case Buddy’s locations don’t always do thing the same with the sauce.  dicepackage also wondered in that post what the standard order was for the sauce.

Norma

Offline Ev

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1055 on: January 05, 2013, 01:00:24 PM »
I have a few wfo NY style dough balls left from yesterday. I think I'll try it on some DS tonight. It's the same flour but only 61% HR and there is a little oil in it, but we'll see what happens. The dough is 3 days old at this point. In the fridge the whole time.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1056 on: January 05, 2013, 01:04:11 PM »
Norma,

I wondered if you recall this picture of Mary Heller with the Buddy’s pizza being posted on the Buddy’s thread?  I came across it while looking for something else on Goggle images and when I clicked on it, the link lead me to this page   http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3783.260 on the Buddy’s thread.  I looked though the Buddy’s thread quickly and couldn’t find that picture, but I could have missed it.  Do you also know what is in the background of where Mary Heller is standing?  Is it a conveyor oven?

I had to enlarge the photo, so it is blurry, but that one slice looks pretty high in height to me.
When I did a Google Image search for Mary Hellers, and clicked the photo you referenced, I was taken to page 7 of the Buddy's thread. If you go to Reply 126 on that page, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436, and read paragraph 7 of that post, you will see that I discussed the ovens shown behind Mary in the photo you referenced, including what appeared to be a triple stack oven. I didn't mention it earlier but it looks like a hood is over the ovens. What previously puzzled me about the ovens is that they did not look like any infrared conveyor ovens that I had seen and they did not look like deck ovens. As best I can tell, it looks like the photo you referenced was taken sometime in 2008. See, for example, the second page of the article at http://lubbockonline.com/stories/030408/liv_253467877.shtml. So, by that time, Buddy's may already had gone to air impingement conveyor ovens. By the way, in case you were wondering who the man was that assembled the Buddy's pizza shown in the photo referenced in Reply 126 at http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Mf788bNv6xv/340x.jpg, according to http://lubbockonline.com/stories/030408/liv_253467877.shtml, his name was Malcom Rodgers. I did a Google search on that name, to see if maybe he was lufty, but most of the hits I found were to a porn star by that name, and I don't mean food porn.

I also looked though the Buddy’s thread a little more and do you recall  dicepackage posting at Reply 114 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg79558.html#msg79558 that the Buddy’s pizza at Point Plaza has the sauce underneath the cheese and at the Hamtracmck location the sauce is on top.  If that really is the case Buddy’s locations don’t always do thing the same with the sauce.  dicepackage also wondered in that post what the standard order was for the sauce.
I did not recall dicepackage's comments on the location of the sauce but I did recall that PizzaHog commented on variations in practices that he saw at different ones of the Buddy's locations. Reading dicepackage's comments now, it occurs to me that diners may ask for variations in the way that their pizzas are made, which would not be an uncommon or unusual request. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the Buddy's Detroiter pizza came into being because some diners wanted the pepperoni slices on top of the pizza rather than under the cheese.

While on the subject of sauce and ovens, the other day I did some further research on Loui's and Shield's since both use deck ovens. What I was wondering was whether their pizzas showed sunken areas under their sauce. After looking at a lot of photos of the Loui's pizzas (for example, see https://www.google.com/search?q=loui's+pizza&hl=en&tbo=d&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=S2XoUOz0IqXd2QW1xYHQCg&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAA&biw=1432&bih=695), I came to the conclusion that Loui's distributes the sauce more or less across the entire pizza rather than in the form of stripes as used by Buddy's. That might please diners who like to get sauce in every bite of their pizza (an occasional complaint with the Buddy's sauce stripes) but one of the more common complaints on the Loui's pizzas is that there is too much sauce.

With respect to Shield's, I did not find any evidence of sunken areas in the few photos of their pizzas that I found on Google Images and on Flickr. The main complaint I found with the Shield's pizzas is that the sauce is too sweet.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1057 on: January 05, 2013, 01:18:30 PM »
I have a few wfo NY style dough balls left from yesterday. I think I'll try it on some DS tonight. It's the same flour but only 61% HR and there is a little oil in it, but we'll see what happens. The dough is 3 days old at this point. In the fridge the whole time.

Steve,

Good for it!  ;D  It will be interesting to see what happens.

Norma

Offline Ev

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1058 on: January 05, 2013, 01:23:42 PM »
By goodly Norma, I think I will! :-D


Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1059 on: January 05, 2013, 01:43:00 PM »
Norma,
When I did a Google Image search for Mary Hellers, and clicked the photo you referenced, I was taken to page 7 of the Buddy's thread. If you go to Reply 126 on that page, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436, and read paragraph 7 of that post, you will see that I discussed the ovens shown behind Mary in the photo you referenced, including what appeared to be a triple stack oven. I didn't mention it earlier but it looks like a hood is over the ovens. What previously puzzled me about the ovens is that they did not look like any infrared conveyor ovens that I had seen and they did not look like deck ovens. As best I can tell, it looks like the photo you referenced was taken sometime in 2008. See, for example, the second page of the article at http://lubbockonline.com/stories/030408/liv_253467877.shtml. So, by that time, Buddy's may already had gone to air impingement conveyor ovens. By the way, in case you were wondering who the man was that assembled the Buddy's pizza shown in the photo referenced in Reply 126 at http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Mf788bNv6xv/340x.jpg, according to http://lubbockonline.com/stories/030408/liv_253467877.shtml, his name was Malcom Rodgers. I did a Google search on that name, to see if maybe he was lufty, but most of the hits I found were to a porn star by that name, and I don't mean food porn.
I did not recall dicepackage's comments on the location of the sauce but I did recall that PizzaHog commented on variations in practices that he saw at different ones of the Buddy's locations. Reading dicepackage's comments now, it occurs to me that diners may ask for variations in the way that their pizzas are made, which would not be an uncommon or unusual request. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the Buddy's Detroiter pizza came into being because some diners wanted the pepperoni slices on top of the pizza rather than under the cheese.

While on the subject of sauce and ovens, the other day I did some further research on Loui's and Shield's since both use deck ovens. What I was wondering was whether their pizzas showed sunken areas under their sauce. After looking at a lot of photos of the Loui's pizzas (for example, see https://www.google.com/search?q=loui's+pizza&hl=en&tbo=d&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=S2XoUOz0IqXd2QW1xYHQCg&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAA&biw=1432&bih=695), I came to the conclusion that Loui's distributes the sauce more or less across the entire pizza rather than in the form of stripes as used by Buddy's. That might please diners who like to get sauce in every bite of their pizza (an occasional complaint with the Buddy's sauce stripes) but one of the more common complaints on the Loui's pizzas is that there is too much sauce.

With respect to Shield's, I did not find any evidence of sunken areas in the few photos of their pizzas that I found on Google Images and on Flickr. The main complaint I found with the Shield's pizzas is that the sauce is too sweet.

Peter


Peter,

I did see where you posted in paragraph 7 now that you discussed the ovens shown behind Mary in that photo from the link.  I also thought that oven looked like a triple stack oven and didn’t think it looked like any other infrared conveyor oven, or deck ovens I have seen before (although I haven’t seen as many as you).  I see what you mean that the article and photo must have been in 2008 from lubbockonline.com.

I didn’t even notice the name of the man below the picture when the cheese was being applied to the Buddy‘s pizza.  I might search who Malcom Rodgers is on facebook.  You sure don’t leave any stones unturned and looking to see if Malcom Rodgers was lufty was smart on your part.  Finding out about a porn star was funny. 

I didn’t see the comments PizzaHog made in the variations in practices that he saw at different Buddy’s locations, but will have to read that thread the whole way though.  I still haven’t done that yet.  I believe you are right that the Buddy’s Detroiter pizza might have become into being because some of the diners wanted the pepperoni slices on top of the pizza. 

I also looked at lots of pictures of Loui’s pizzas the other day to see if their pizzas look sunken in the middle at all, but saw they didn’t look sunken in the middle.  Maybe I will have to try and apply my sauces as Loui’s does to see what happens.  I didn’t look at pictures of Shield’s pizzas. 

I still haven’t decided if I want to add any salt in the Buddy’s clone formulation for Monday.  The last time I used salt in the Buddy’s clone formulation I used 1.75%.  I am not sure if I should go down, or add no salt at all, but had to many variables in that dough and the one I made last week.

Norma
 

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1060 on: January 05, 2013, 01:43:43 PM »
By goodly Norma, I think I will! :-D

Steve,

 ;)

Norma

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1061 on: January 05, 2013, 02:36:44 PM »
I have a few wfo NY style dough balls left from yesterday. I think I'll try it on some DS tonight. It's the same flour but only 61% HR and there is a little oil in it, but we'll see what happens. The dough is 3 days old at this point. In the fridge the whole time.

I'm guessing it will be good.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1062 on: January 05, 2013, 02:43:09 PM »
By goodly Norma, I think I will! :-D

Steve,

I will be most interested in the texture of the crumb. And whether the crust sinks below the sauce stripes.

Peter

Offline Ev

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1063 on: January 05, 2013, 03:01:33 PM »
Steve,

I will be most interested in the texture of the crumb. And whether the crust sinks below the sauce stripes.

Peter

I'm planning on an 8-square and 2 4-square pies. I was thinking maybe sauce one 4-sq pre-bake and 1 mid-bake for comparison. I haven't thought much about the 8-sq yet. Any ideas?
 Also, I'll be using 10oz. of dough for each 4-sq and 17.5 for the 8-sq, which translates, I believe, into a TF of .125.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 03:07:38 PM by Ev »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1064 on: January 05, 2013, 04:53:58 PM »
I haven't thought much about the 8-sq yet. Any ideas?

Steve,

If I'm not too late you might get some inspiration from the pizza menus of some of the Detroit-area notables:

Buddy's: http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/Carryout101.pdf

Loui's: http://louispizza.net/?page_id=17

Shield's: http://www.shieldspizza.com/shields-menu-9-12.pdf

Detroit Style Pizza Co: http://detroitstylepizza.co/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/7-1-12-DSPC-JumboBack.pdf

Or for a Texas version from the Hunt boys: http://via313.com/menu.pdf

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1065 on: January 05, 2013, 06:33:32 PM »
One thing I forgot to post about the two pizzas I made last night from the dough that was made on Sunday, was there was no better flavor in the crust from the longer fermentation time, although the whole slices tasted good.  I guess there needs to be salt added to a dough formulation for better flavors to develop in the crust.  Since the doughs in the steel pans smelled yeasty, I thought there might be better flavors in the crust, but when eating different pieces of just the crust, there wasn’t much, or any flavor at all.  The crust just tasted bland.

Norma,

I had intended to respond more fully to the above comments and observations but I first wanted to do some more thinking and some more number crunching.

I think it might be helpful to consider what Buddy's has done with its dough and what aspects of it are flavor related, and maybe to come to a few other conclusions. Let's start by taking a close look at what Buddy's does.

First, Buddy's takes a flour with a modest protein content, 12.2%, as the flour for its pizzas. That means a modest flavor contribution, basically the mild yet pleasant wheaty flavor of the flour. Second, it adds a bunch of water to the flour (more on this below). Unless there is something unique about the water Buddy's uses to make its dough, it is not likely to be a major flavor enhancer. Third, by Buddy's own admission, it omits any oil or sugar in the dough, although there is oil placed in the pan. Yet that oil is a mild oil without a lot of flavor. Fourth, if I am correct on my speculation that little or no salt is used in the Buddy's dough, there will be little or no flavor contribution from that source. Fifth, Buddy's uses what I imagine is a fair amount of yeast in its dough, perhaps enough to contribute a yeasty flavor to the finished crust.

At the end of the day, when you add everything up, Buddy's produces a very inexpensive dough ball that weighs maybe 9-10 ounces or thereabouts (for its 4-square pizzas). Assuming a hydration of 71% and IDY at 0.80%, which are the values that you have used, about 41% of the total dough ball weight is water. Increase the hydration to 75%, and the weight of water in the dough ball goes to about 43%. Lastly, since the Buddy's dough only gets about 1-2 hours of room temperature fermentation, you aren't going to get a lot of byproducts of fermentation to contribute to final crust flavor.

So, query, why would anyone expect to get a lot of flavor in the Buddy's crust by itself? That is a rhetorical question and perhaps the genius of Buddy's, apart from selling a lot of water and a a litlle bit more flour (by weight), is that it chose to put almost all of heavy lifting flavor-wise on using a unique and distinctive cheese (brick cheese), quality tomatoes for its sauce, quality pepperoni and other toppings, and using inexpensive blue steel pans to achieve a crispy bottom crust and caramelized cheese at the edges. Interestingly, when I read reviews of the Buddy's pizzas, and there have been quite a few, the part of the pizzas that appealed most to diners and was most frequently mentioned was the crust. The brick cheese, and especially its abundance, was also frequently noted, especially its crispiness at the edges of the outer crust, and the sauce was only occasionally mentioned, although usually favorably. I do not recall any diner tasting just the crumb of the crust and commenting on it. We might do that sort of thing on this forum but that is not the way that people (normal people, that is) eat pizza.

Peter

Offline Ev

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1066 on: January 05, 2013, 07:32:28 PM »
Ok, I made my pies. The 8-sqare, I made Hawaiian, ham&pineapple. One 4-sq, pepperoni(under the cheese) and one 4-sq, Italian sausage on top of the cheese. The sausage pie got sauced before baking, the pep. about halfway thru and the 8-sq about 2 minutes from done. It took about 18 minutes to bake, all 3 at once @ 475, no stone. The bottoms came out nice and crispy as did the sides. The crust was good but with a tighter crumb than the higher hydration doughs. Also the pies just seemed heavier all around, not light and airy. Curiously, the 8-sq pie rose significantly less than the 4-sqs., even though they were from the same batch of dough. I don't think I messed up my calculations but who knows? There was no noticeable dough sag under the sauce on any of the pies. Ok, here are a bunch of pictures.........


Offline Ev

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1067 on: January 05, 2013, 07:34:42 PM »
more

Offline Ev

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1068 on: January 05, 2013, 07:36:51 PM »
sausage

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1069 on: January 05, 2013, 07:40:39 PM »
Here's the difference in rise between the 4 and 8-sq, and a few of the pep. pie, I think.

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1070 on: January 05, 2013, 08:09:59 PM »
Steve,

Thank you very much for all your efforts. All things considered, I think you did a very nice job and turned out some pizzas that look very tasty.

Given the hydration value for your dough, I can't say that I am very surprised that there was no sinking of the crusts beneath the sauce. But maybe your results tell us that overly hydrated doughs can result in the type of sinking that Norma and others have experienced.

I was also curious to see how the 8-square would bake compared with the 4-square. You correctly used the proper amount of dough for the two pan sizes based on using the same thickness factor. However, Buddy's says that it uses twice the amount of dough for the 8-square as it uses for the 4-square (and also double the amount of cheese for the 8-square). I wondered whether there was a reason for doing this. Maybe it is because of differences in the way that the 4-square pizzas bake and the way that the 8-square pizzas bake, especially if the two sizes of pizzas are baked at the same time in the same oven. However, since it looks like Buddy's has stacked ovens, it is a possibility that the 8-squares are baked in an oven dedicated to that size. There is usually a logic for why people do what they do, especially after doing this sort of thing for well over 60 years, so there may still be some secrets that elude us. I also noted that the Buddy's Nutrition information does not distinguish between slices from the 4-square pizzas and the 8-square pizzas. Presumably, the slices from the two sizes are close enough to use them to create the Nutrition information. Since Buddy's has only nine locations, it would be surprising for anyone to question their Nutrtion information. But for what Norma and I have been doing, I wouldnt' take a second look at the Buddy's Nutrition information either.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1071 on: January 05, 2013, 09:01:47 PM »
Norma,

I had intended to respond more fully to the above comments and observations but I first wanted to do some more thinking and some more number crunching.

I think it might be helpful to consider what Buddy's has done with its dough and what aspects of it are flavor related, and maybe to come to a few other conclusions. Let's start by taking a close look at what Buddy's does.

First, Buddy's takes a flour with a modest protein content, 12.2%, as the flour for its pizzas. That means a modest flavor contribution, basically the mild yet pleasant wheaty flavor of the flour. Second, it adds a bunch of water to the flour (more on this below). Unless there is something unique about the water Buddy's uses to make its dough, it is not likely to be a major flavor enhancer. Third, by Buddy's own admission, it omits any oil or sugar in the dough, although there is oil placed in the pan. Yet that oil is a mild oil without a lot of flavor. Fourth, if I am correct on my speculation that little or no salt is used in the Buddy's dough, there will be little or no flavor contribution from that source. Fifth, Buddy's uses what I imagine is a fair amount of yeast in its dough, perhaps enough to contribute a yeasty flavor to the finished crust.

At the end of the day, when you add everything up, Buddy's produces a very inexpensive dough ball that weighs maybe 9-10 ounces or thereabouts (for its 4-square pizzas). Assuming a hydration of 71% and IDY at 0.80%, which are the values that you have used, about 41% of the total dough ball weight is water. Increase the hydration to 75%, and the weight of water in the dough ball goes to about 43%. Lastly, since the Buddy's dough only gets about 1-2 hours of room temperature fermentation, you aren't going to get a lot of byproducts of fermentation to contribute to final crust flavor.

So, query, why would anyone expect to get a lot of flavor in the Buddy's crust by itself? That is a rhetorical question and perhaps the genius of Buddy's, apart from selling a lot of water and a a litlle bit more flour (by weight), is that it chose to put almost all of heavy lifting flavor-wise on using a unique and distinctive cheese (brick cheese), quality tomatoes for its sauce, quality pepperoni and other toppings, and using inexpensive blue steel pans to achieve a crispy bottom crust and caramelized cheese at the edges. Interestingly, when I read reviews of the Buddy's pizzas, and there have been quite a few, the part of the pizzas that appealed most to diners and was most frequently mentioned was the crust. The brick cheese, and especially its abundance, was also frequently noted, especially its crispiness at the edges of the outer crust, and the sauce was only occasionally mentioned, although usually favorably. I do not recall any diner tasting just the crumb of the crust and commenting on it. We might do that sort of thing on this forum but that is not the way that people (normal people, that is) eat pizza.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for thinking over what Buddy’s has done with their dough and now what your thoughts are.

I understand that Buddy’s makes a very inexpensive dough.  I can also see if no salt is added there is no farther flavor given to the crust from salt and also Buddy’s dough isn’t going to get a lot of by products of fermentation over those couple of hours for increased crust flavor. 

I don’t think anyone would expect to get a lot of flavor in Buddy’s crust itself with what they do.  I can see why reviewers of Buddy’s pizza think the crust appeals to them though.  It is that bottom crust crunch that does it along with the caramelized edges, the good tomato sauce and the brick cheese. I know we aren’t normal (or maybe not even normal people) reviewers on this forum when we are always trying to get better tastes in the crusts alone.  Most of the reviewers just probably takes bites of the pizza and what they like is the whole experience of Buddy’s pizzas.  I still would like to try a real Buddy’s pizza right out of the oven and see what I thought.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1072 on: January 05, 2013, 09:03:45 PM »
Ok, I made my pies. The 8-sqare, I made Hawaiian, ham&pineapple. One 4-sq, pepperoni(under the cheese) and one 4-sq, Italian sausage on top of the cheese. The sausage pie got sauced before baking, the pep. about halfway thru and the 8-sq about 2 minutes from done. It took about 18 minutes to bake, all 3 at once @ 475, no stone. The bottoms came out nice and crispy as did the sides. The crust was good but with a tighter crumb than the higher hydration doughs. Also the pies just seemed heavier all around, not light and airy. Curiously, the 8-sq pie rose significantly less than the 4-sqs., even though they were from the same batch of dough. I don't think I messed up my calculations but who knows? There was no noticeable dough sag under the sauce on any of the pies. Ok, here are a bunch of pictures.........

Steve,

All three of your pies look very tasty!  :chef:  What kind of cheese, or cheeses did you use.  I like the no crumb sag from the sauce.  :-D

Norma

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1073 on: January 05, 2013, 09:29:08 PM »
Steve the squares look killer, absolutely killer!  You could put L & B out of business.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1074 on: January 05, 2013, 09:46:02 PM »
Norma,

There is another "pizza genius" that took a page out of Gus Guerra's book, with a lot of analogs to what Gus and his successors did: Dom DeMarco of DiFara's.

Dom uses a flavorful blend of flours (00 and high-gluten) along with a fairly high hydration and salt and yeast (but no oil or sugar) to make an emergency dough. I even recall when he once showed me a drawer or something similar under his oven where he kept the emergency dough balls warm and cozy, much as you use your Hatco unit to do the same thing with your emergency Buddy's clone doughs.

Dom then took what most of us would consider a pedestrian dough and used some really high quality cheeses (imported and Grande), fresh and imported tomatoes (San Marzano DOPs), freshly grated hard cheeses (like Reggiano-Parmigiano and Grana Padano), and fresh herbs. For years, customers have lined up for Dom's pizzas, oblivious to the shortcomings of his dough (at least to some of us on this forum) but finding great appeal in all of the quality items Dom put on his pizzas. It also certainly helped that the media heaped praise on Dom and DiFara's over the years, just as is done by the Detroit-area media with Buddy's. Like Dom set a standard against many NY pizza makers would be measured, Buddy's is the king of the hill against which all other Detroit style pizza makers are compared and measured.

Peter


 

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