Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!

[norma427]

By goodly Norma, I think I will!

Steve,

 

Norma

[TXCraig1]

I have a few wfo NY style dough balls left from yesterday. I think I'll try it on some DS tonight. It's the same flour but only 61% HR and there is a little oil in it, but we'll see what happens. The dough is 3 days old at this point. In the fridge the whole time.

I'm guessing it will be good.

[Pete-zza]

By goodly Norma, I think I will!

Steve,

I will be most interested in the texture of the crumb. And whether the crust sinks below the sauce stripes.

Peter

[Ev]

Steve,

I will be most interested in the texture of the crumb. And whether the crust sinks below the sauce stripes.

Peter

I'm planning on an 8-square and 2 4-square pies. I was thinking maybe sauce one 4-sq pre-bake and 1 mid-bake for comparison. I haven't thought much about the 8-sq yet. Any ideas?
 Also, I'll be using 10oz. of dough for each 4-sq and 17.5 for the 8-sq, which translates, I believe, into a TF of .125.

[Pete-zza]

I haven't thought much about the 8-sq yet. Any ideas?

Steve,

If I'm not too late you might get some inspiration from the pizza menus of some of the Detroit-area notables:

Buddy's: http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/Carryout101.pdf

Loui's: http://louispizza.net/?page_id=17

Shield's: http://www.shieldspizza.com/shields-menu-9-12.pdf

Detroit Style Pizza Co: http://detroitstylepizza.co/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/7-1-12-DSPC-JumboBack.pdf

Or for a Texas version from the Hunt boys: http://via313.com/menu.pdf

Peter

[Pete-zza]

One thing I forgot to post about the two pizzas I made last night from the dough that was made on Sunday, was there was no better flavor in the crust from the longer fermentation time, although the whole slices tasted good.  I guess there needs to be salt added to a dough formulation for better flavors to develop in the crust.  Since the doughs in the steel pans smelled yeasty, I thought there might be better flavors in the crust, but when eating different pieces of just the crust, there wasn’t much, or any flavor at all.  The crust just tasted bland.

Norma,

I had intended to respond more fully to the above comments and observations but I first wanted to do some more thinking and some more number crunching.

I think it might be helpful to consider what Buddy's has done with its dough and what aspects of it are flavor related, and maybe to come to a few other conclusions. Let's start by taking a close look at what Buddy's does.

First, Buddy's takes a flour with a modest protein content, 12.2%, as the flour for its pizzas. That means a modest flavor contribution, basically the mild yet pleasant wheaty flavor of the flour. Second, it adds a bunch of water to the flour (more on this below). Unless there is something unique about the water Buddy's uses to make its dough, it is not likely to be a major flavor enhancer. Third, by Buddy's own admission, it omits any oil or sugar in the dough, although there is oil placed in the pan. Yet that oil is a mild oil without a lot of flavor. Fourth, if I am correct on my speculation that little or no salt is used in the Buddy's dough, there will be little or no flavor contribution from that source. Fifth, Buddy's uses what I imagine is a fair amount of yeast in its dough, perhaps enough to contribute a yeasty flavor to the finished crust.

At the end of the day, when you add everything up, Buddy's produces a very inexpensive dough ball that weighs maybe 9-10 ounces or thereabouts (for its 4-square pizzas). Assuming a hydration of 71% and IDY at 0.80%, which are the values that you have used, about 41% of the total dough ball weight is water. Increase the hydration to 75%, and the weight of water in the dough ball goes to about 43%. Lastly, since the Buddy's dough only gets about 1-2 hours of room temperature fermentation, you aren't going to get a lot of byproducts of fermentation to contribute to final crust flavor.

So, query, why would anyone expect to get a lot of flavor in the Buddy's crust by itself? That is a rhetorical question and perhaps the genius of Buddy's, apart from selling a lot of water and a a litlle bit more flour (by weight), is that it chose to put almost all of heavy lifting flavor-wise on using a unique and distinctive cheese (brick cheese), quality tomatoes for its sauce, quality pepperoni and other toppings, and using inexpensive blue steel pans to achieve a crispy bottom crust and caramelized cheese at the edges. Interestingly, when I read reviews of the Buddy's pizzas, and there have been quite a few, the part of the pizzas that appealed most to diners and was most frequently mentioned was the crust. The brick cheese, and especially its abundance, was also frequently noted, especially its crispiness at the edges of the outer crust, and the sauce was only occasionally mentioned, although usually favorably. I do not recall any diner tasting just the crumb of the crust and commenting on it. We might do that sort of thing on this forum but that is not the way that people (normal people, that is) eat pizza.

Peter

[Ev]

Ok, I made my pies. The 8-sqare, I made Hawaiian, ham&pineapple. One 4-sq, pepperoni(under the cheese) and one 4-sq, Italian sausage on top of the cheese. The sausage pie got sauced before baking, the pep. about halfway thru and the 8-sq about 2 minutes from done. It took about 18 minutes to bake, all 3 at once @ 475, no stone. The bottoms came out nice and crispy as did the sides. The crust was good but with a tighter crumb than the higher hydration doughs. Also the pies just seemed heavier all around, not light and airy. Curiously, the 8-sq pie rose significantly less than the 4-sqs., even though they were from the same batch of dough. I don't think I messed up my calculations but who knows? There was no noticeable dough sag under the sauce on any of the pies. Ok, here are a bunch of pictures.........

[Ev]

more

[Ev]

sausage

[Ev]

Here's the difference in rise between the 4 and 8-sq, and a few of the pep. pie, I think.

[Pete-zza]

Steve,

Thank you very much for all your efforts. All things considered, I think you did a very nice job and turned out some pizzas that look very tasty.

Given the hydration value for your dough, I can't say that I am very surprised that there was no sinking of the crusts beneath the sauce. But maybe your results tell us that overly hydrated doughs can result in the type of sinking that Norma and others have experienced.

I was also curious to see how the 8-square would bake compared with the 4-square. You correctly used the proper amount of dough for the two pan sizes based on using the same thickness factor. However, Buddy's says that it uses twice the amount of dough for the 8-square as it uses for the 4-square (and also double the amount of cheese for the 8-square). I wondered whether there was a reason for doing this. Maybe it is because of differences in the way that the 4-square pizzas bake and the way that the 8-square pizzas bake, especially if the two sizes of pizzas are baked at the same time in the same oven. However, since it looks like Buddy's has stacked ovens, it is a possibility that the 8-squares are baked in an oven dedicated to that size. There is usually a logic for why people do what they do, especially after doing this sort of thing for well over 60 years, so there may still be some secrets that elude us. I also noted that the Buddy's Nutrition information does not distinguish between slices from the 4-square pizzas and the 8-square pizzas. Presumably, the slices from the two sizes are close enough to use them to create the Nutrition information. Since Buddy's has only nine locations, it would be surprising for anyone to question their Nutrtion information. But for what Norma and I have been doing, I wouldnt' take a second look at the Buddy's Nutrition information either.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I had intended to respond more fully to the above comments and observations but I first wanted to do some more thinking and some more number crunching.

I think it might be helpful to consider what Buddy's has done with its dough and what aspects of it are flavor related, and maybe to come to a few other conclusions. Let's start by taking a close look at what Buddy's does.

First, Buddy's takes a flour with a modest protein content, 12.2%, as the flour for its pizzas. That means a modest flavor contribution, basically the mild yet pleasant wheaty flavor of the flour. Second, it adds a bunch of water to the flour (more on this below). Unless there is something unique about the water Buddy's uses to make its dough, it is not likely to be a major flavor enhancer. Third, by Buddy's own admission, it omits any oil or sugar in the dough, although there is oil placed in the pan. Yet that oil is a mild oil without a lot of flavor. Fourth, if I am correct on my speculation that little or no salt is used in the Buddy's dough, there will be little or no flavor contribution from that source. Fifth, Buddy's uses what I imagine is a fair amount of yeast in its dough, perhaps enough to contribute a yeasty flavor to the finished crust.

At the end of the day, when you add everything up, Buddy's produces a very inexpensive dough ball that weighs maybe 9-10 ounces or thereabouts (for its 4-square pizzas). Assuming a hydration of 71% and IDY at 0.80%, which are the values that you have used, about 41% of the total dough ball weight is water. Increase the hydration to 75%, and the weight of water in the dough ball goes to about 43%. Lastly, since the Buddy's dough only gets about 1-2 hours of room temperature fermentation, you aren't going to get a lot of byproducts of fermentation to contribute to final crust flavor.

So, query, why would anyone expect to get a lot of flavor in the Buddy's crust by itself? That is a rhetorical question and perhaps the genius of Buddy's, apart from selling a lot of water and a a litlle bit more flour (by weight), is that it chose to put almost all of heavy lifting flavor-wise on using a unique and distinctive cheese (brick cheese), quality tomatoes for its sauce, quality pepperoni and other toppings, and using inexpensive blue steel pans to achieve a crispy bottom crust and caramelized cheese at the edges. Interestingly, when I read reviews of the Buddy's pizzas, and there have been quite a few, the part of the pizzas that appealed most to diners and was most frequently mentioned was the crust. The brick cheese, and especially its abundance, was also frequently noted, especially its crispiness at the edges of the outer crust, and the sauce was only occasionally mentioned, although usually favorably. I do not recall any diner tasting just the crumb of the crust and commenting on it. We might do that sort of thing on this forum but that is not the way that people (normal people, that is) eat pizza.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for thinking over what Buddy’s has done with their dough and now what your thoughts are.

I understand that Buddy’s makes a very inexpensive dough.  I can also see if no salt is added there is no farther flavor given to the crust from salt and also Buddy’s dough isn’t going to get a lot of by products of fermentation over those couple of hours for increased crust flavor. 

I don’t think anyone would expect to get a lot of flavor in Buddy’s crust itself with what they do.  I can see why reviewers of Buddy’s pizza think the crust appeals to them though.  It is that bottom crust crunch that does it along with the caramelized edges, the good tomato sauce and the brick cheese. I know we aren’t normal (or maybe not even normal people) reviewers on this forum when we are always trying to get better tastes in the crusts alone.  Most of the reviewers just probably takes bites of the pizza and what they like is the whole experience of Buddy’s pizzas.  I still would like to try a real Buddy’s pizza right out of the oven and see what I thought.

Norma

[norma427]

Ok, I made my pies. The 8-sqare, I made Hawaiian, ham&pineapple. One 4-sq, pepperoni(under the cheese) and one 4-sq, Italian sausage on top of the cheese. The sausage pie got sauced before baking, the pep. about halfway thru and the 8-sq about 2 minutes from done. It took about 18 minutes to bake, all 3 at once @ 475, no stone. The bottoms came out nice and crispy as did the sides. The crust was good but with a tighter crumb than the higher hydration doughs. Also the pies just seemed heavier all around, not light and airy. Curiously, the 8-sq pie rose significantly less than the 4-sqs., even though they were from the same batch of dough. I don't think I messed up my calculations but who knows? There was no noticeable dough sag under the sauce on any of the pies. Ok, here are a bunch of pictures.........

Steve,

All three of your pies look very tasty!    What kind of cheese, or cheeses did you use.  I like the no crumb sag from the sauce. 

Norma

[Jet_deck]

Steve the squares look killer, absolutely killer!  You could put L & B out of business.

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

There is another "pizza genius" that took a page out of Gus Guerra's book, with a lot of analogs to what Gus and his successors did: Dom DeMarco of DiFara's.

Dom uses a flavorful blend of flours (00 and high-gluten) along with a fairly high hydration and salt and yeast (but no oil or sugar) to make an emergency dough. I even recall when he once showed me a drawer or something similar under his oven where he kept the emergency dough balls warm and cozy, much as you use your Hatco unit to do the same thing with your emergency Buddy's clone doughs.

Dom then took what most of us would consider a pedestrian dough and used some really high quality cheeses (imported and Grande), fresh and imported tomatoes (San Marzano DOPs), freshly grated hard cheeses (like Reggiano-Parmigiano and Grana Padano), and fresh herbs. For years, customers have lined up for Dom's pizzas, oblivious to the shortcomings of his dough (at least to some of us on this forum) but finding great appeal in all of the quality items Dom put on his pizzas. It also certainly helped that the media heaped praise on Dom and DiFara's over the years, just as is done by the Detroit-area media with Buddy's. Like Dom set a standard against many NY pizza makers would be measured, Buddy's is the king of the hill against which all other Detroit style pizza makers are compared and measured.

Peter

[Ev]

Steve,

All three of your pies look very tasty!    What kind of cheese, or cheeses did you use.  I like the no crumb sag from the sauce. 

Norma

Norma, I used a blend, maybe 50/50 of Weis sharp cheddar and Country brand wm/lm mozz.  It wasn't bad but not as good as brick or ampi cheddar.

[Ev]

Steve the squares look killer, absolutely killer!  You could put L & B out of business.

Thanks Gene but I don't think L&B needs to worry much about me!

[norma427]

Norma,

There is another "pizza genius" that took a page out of Gus Guerra's book, with a lot of analogs to what Gus and his successors did: Dom DeMarco of DiFara's.

Dom uses a flavorful blend of flours (00 and high-gluten) along with a fairly high hydration and salt and yeast (but no oil or sugar) to make an emergency dough. I even recall when he once showed me a drawer or something similar under his oven where he kept the emergency dough balls warm and cozy, much as you use your Hatco unit to do the same thing with your emergency Buddy's clone doughs.

Dom then took what most of us would consider a pedestrian dough and used some really high quality cheeses (imported and Grande), fresh and imported tomatoes (San Marzano DOPs), freshly grated hard cheeses (like Reggiano-Parmigiano and Grana Padano), and fresh herbs. For years, customers have lined up for Dom's pizzas, oblivious to the shortcomings of his dough (at least to some of us on this forum) but finding great appeal in all of the quality items Dom put on his pizzas. It also certainly helped that the media heaped praise on Dom and DiFara's over the years, just as is done by the Detroit-area media with Buddy's. Like Dom set a standard against many NY pizza makers would be measured, Buddy's is the king of the hill against which all other Detroit style pizza makers are compared and measured.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for reminding me of the other “pizza genius”, Dom DeMarco of DiFara’s.  I know Dom has also done something like Buddy’s pizza in that he uses what is an emergency dough.  I didn’t know though that he once showed you a drawer or something similar under his oven where he kept the emergency dough balls warm and cozy, like I am trying to do in the Hatco Unit.  I wonder how long his dough balls stayed in the drawer.  Did you taste any byproducts of fermentation in Dom’s crust, or were the toppings the star of the pizza you tried something like Buddy’s pizza?

I also looked on the web for higher hydration Sicilian doughs without any salt, but didn’t find any.   

I also know Dom took what is basically an emergency dough and then added really high quality ingredients and fresh herbs on his baked pizzas.  I also agree that the media helped both DiFara’s and Buddy’s.  They both are “pizza geniuses".   

Norma

[gschwim]

I'm too lazy to search for the exact post, but I had mentioned remembering a "creaminess" to the Buddy's pizzas I remember from Detroit.  I'm sure Buddy's didn't (doesn't) use this type of flour, but I made a Detroit style pie (and ate it before I could photograph it(!), but it looked like the others on this thread) using Italian 00 flour and definitely got the "creamy" effect.  Or maybe it was the recipe and not the flour, because this also was the first time I tried using Jim Lahey's recipe from his new - and very good - book, My Pizza (http://www.amazon.com/My-Pizza-Easy-No-Knead-Spectacular/dp/0307886158/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1357452859&sr=1-1&keywords=my+pizza)

The recipe is very simple:

500 grams flour (recipe specifies AP, but again, I used 00)
1 gram (1/4 tsp) active dry yeast (I made a mistake and used IDY).
16 grams (2 tsp) fine sea salt
350 grams water

As you all probably know, Lahey's method is to mix the ingredients for about 30 seconds or just enough to combine the ingredients and then leave it covered (I use a plastic container with the snap-on live lifted slightly in one corner) until it doubles, about 18 hours.  But perhaps, because I used IDY instead of ADY, it more than doubled, and a lot sooner than 18 hours (more like 8-10).  So I put the container in the refrigerator that morning and took it out around 9:00 p.m. for a late dinner.  

Oh, one more thing:  Lahey says, just mix the dough for 30 seconds by hand; however, I've always had trouble incorporating all the flour into the water, so I mixed, with the dough hook, on my Kitchenaid for about 1 minute, until the flour came together.

Anyway, I pulled out a 300 gram chunk of dough and spread it out in an 8 x 10 blue steel pan lubed with butter-flavored Crisco - and made an interesting discovery.  I don't recall seeing anyone post about this, but I've always had trouble spreading the dough out in the pan.  But this time, with cold dough, fresh out of the fridge, spreading the dough was very easy.  Then I let the pan sit out for about an hour, to warm up a bit and then I baked the pizza and everything was fine.

My only "complaint" was that the finished product was a bit thicker than I wanted, so I think I will try just 250 grams of dough, next time, as well as trying AP flour, and I think I will substitute 1/8 tsp IDY for the 1/4 tsp ADY in Lahey's recipe.  And getting back to the dough, maybe I will try what one or more of you said that Dom DiFara does, mixing 00 and bread flour (which, I understand, they also do in Italy).  Can anyone advise me on the right ratio (by weight) of 00 and bread?

Final point:  Some of you have been talking about thickness and posting photos with a ruler alongside, to show how thick the pie is.  But unless I'm misremembering something, all the photos were taken with the ruler being held against the outside of the pie.  But I don't recall the Buddy's pizzas being particular thick - thicker than a round pie, yes, but not as thick as a "standard" Sicilian.  (But maybe those of you who have ordered Buddy's pies on the Internet can correct me if I'm wrong.)  So I'm thinking that the height might be accounted for by how high the "edge cheese" rides up the inside wall of the pan.  The caramelized cheese crust, of course, is one of the features that distinguishes a Buddy's/Detroit style pizza, so I can see why a pizzeria would want to get as much "naked" crust as possible.

And finally, since I referred to My Pizza, it's a great book that I would recommend everyone to get.  Some interesting recipes that I actually think could work well with a Detroit-style dough, but definitely look great for a standard round pizza.

Gene

[norma427]

I'm too lazy to search for the exact post, but I had mentioned remembering a "creaminess" to the Buddy's pizzas I remember from Detroit.  I'm sure Buddy's didn't (doesn't) use this type of flour, but I made a Detroit style pie (and ate it before I could photograph it(!), but it looked like the others on this thread) using Italian 00 flour and definitely got the "creamy" effect.  Or maybe it was the recipe and not the flour, because this also was the first time I tried using Jim Lahey's recipe from his new - and very good - book, My Pizza (http://www.amazon.com/My-Pizza-Easy-No-Knead-Spectacular/dp/0307886158/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1357452859&sr=1-1&keywords=my+pizza)

The recipe is very simple:

500 grams flour (recipe specifies AP, but again, I used 00)
1 gram (1/4 tsp) active dry yeast (I made a mistake and used IDY).
16 grams (2 tsp) fine sea salt
350 grams water

As you all probably know, Lahey's method is to mix the ingredients for about 30 seconds or just enough to combine the ingredients and then leave it covered (I use a plastic container with the snap-on live lifted slightly in one corner) until it doubles, about 18 hours.  But perhaps, because I used IDY instead of ADY, it more than doubled, and a lot sooner than 18 hours (more like 8-10).  So I put the container in the refrigerator that morning and took it out around 9:00 p.m. for a late dinner.  

Oh, one more thing:  Lahey says, just mix the dough for 30 seconds by hand; however, I've always had trouble incorporating all the flour into the water, so I mixed, with the dough hook, on my Kitchenaid for about 1 minute, until the flour came together.

Anyway, I pulled out a 300 gram chunk of dough and spread it out in an 8 x 10 blue steel pan lubed with butter-flavored Crisco - and made an interesting discovery.  I don't recall seeing anyone post about this, but I've always had trouble spreading the dough out in the pan.  But this time, with cold dough, fresh out of the fridge, spreading the dough was very easy.  Then I let the pan sit out for about an hour, to warm up a bit and then I baked the pizza and everything was fine.

My only "complaint" was that the finished product was a bit thicker than I wanted, so I think I will try just 250 grams of dough, next time, as well as trying AP flour, and I think I will substitute 1/8 tsp IDY for the 1/4 tsp ADY in Lahey's recipe.  And getting back to the dough, maybe I will try what one or more of you said that Dom DiFara does, mixing 00 and bread flour (which, I understand, they also do in Italy).  Can anyone advise me on the right ratio (by weight) of 00 and bread?

Final point:  Some of you have been talking about thickness and posting photos with a ruler alongside, to show how thick the pie is.  But unless I'm misremembering something, all the photos were taken with the ruler being held against the outside of the pie.  But I don't recall the Buddy's pizzas being particular thick - thicker than a round pie, yes, but not as thick as a "standard" Sicilian.  (But maybe those of you who have ordered Buddy's pies on the Internet can correct me if I'm wrong.)  So I'm thinking that the height might be accounted for by how high the "edge cheese" rides up the inside wall of the pan.  The caramelized cheese crust, of course, is one of the features that distinguishes a Buddy's/Detroit style pizza, so I can see why a pizzeria would want to get as much "naked" crust as possible.

And finally, since I referred to My Pizza, it's a great book that I would recommend everyone to get.  Some interesting recipes that I actually think could work well with a Detroit-style dough, but definitely look great for a standard round pizza.

Gene

Gene,

The post you made about “creaminess” was at Reply 917 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg229502.html#msg229502 

I am glad your Detroit style pizza made with Caputo flour and Jim Lahey’s recipe gave you the “creamy” effect you were looking for.  Maybe Buddy’s has changed their flours over the years, but Buddy’s did tell me at Reply 105 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg220791.html#msg220791 that the flour they use had a protein content of 12.2%.  Buddy’s also uses a bromated flour, which is why I am now using the Occident bromated flour at 12.2% for my attempts.

I also posted about the Lahey’s method different times here on the forum and did try out some of his formulations. 

I really don’t know, but for me the dough when it is cold is also easy to spread out, after the dough ball was placed in the steel pan to ferment.  I would guess that is from the higher hydration, but really don’t know.  I had less luck using cold dough balls and then putting them in the steel pans for stretching right out of the fridge, but they were okay.


It is hard to really judge how high in height a real Buddy’s pizza is, or has been just by looking at pictures on the web of Buddy‘s pizzas.  I have been measuring heights of the final baked Buddy’s clones I have been attempting because I wanted to see for one thing how my different ways of fermenting, adding different amounts of yeast, final dough temperature, etc. for a Buddy’s clone dough would affect the final bake height.  Also since I purchased a real Buddy’s pizza I took a picture of the height of that pizza at Reply 533 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg225593.html#msg225593 to compare my different Buddy’s clone attempts.   

I think it is interesting that you don’t recall the Buddy’s pizzas being much thicker than a normal pizza.  I did look at some of those really old black and white photos Buddy’s has on their website and those pizzas didn’t look very high in height either.  I don’t know if Buddy’s changed their amount of doughs they used for their pies over the years or not.

If you want to mix flours to get a certain protein level, Novembers’ Mixed Mass Dough Calculation Tool can help you do that.  http://tools.foodsim.com/  Right now you might have to scroll down to see the tool, because something isn’t working right when you click on the link.

Norma