Author Topic: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 139641 times)

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Offline jeff v

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1100 on: January 09, 2013, 10:05:39 AM »
Glad you liked the cheese. I hope the pizza does well for you!


Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1101 on: January 09, 2013, 10:14:10 AM »
Glad you liked the cheese. I hope the pizza does well for you!

Thanks Jeff!  :)

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1102 on: January 09, 2013, 12:43:12 PM »
Norma,

It looks like you had a very good day yesterday. All of the pizzas look great including the ones you made to honor Steve and me. The Pete-zza TexItaliano pizza looks very appetizing. At first I thought that the green peppers were ordinary bell peppers. But it looks like they were jalapenos, and quite a few of them at that. I hope that that specialty pizza sells well and that the locals can handle the jalapenos. If the TexItaliano pizza doesn't sell well, my feelings won't be hurt if you discontinue it or modify it.

It was a lot of fun working with you on the Buddy's reverse engineering and cloning project. I think we both learned a lot of new things. However, it still remains that PizzaHog was the moving force and inspiration for what we did. He was the pioneer.

As usual, I have a few questions and observations.

1. From the dough formulation posted in Reply 1084 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg230851.html#msg230851, you indicated a dough ball size for the 4-square of 9.5 ounces. For the 8-square, you indicated a dough ball weight of 18 ounces. Since Buddy's says that it uses twice as much dough for the 8-square, was there a reason why you went with 18 ounces instead of 19 ounces?

2. I assume that you used the same weights of cheese, sauce and pepperoni for the 4-squares as you have done before. Can you tell us which tomatoes you used to make the sauce and in what amounts, including any added water? As for putting down the sauce in dollops rather than pure stripes, that is often the way that I have seen it done with Buddy's pizzas, an example of which is shown at http://bp0.blogger.com/__XShj91sMpw/RlJCGZFbuCI/AAAAAAAAAk4/jIeRhr1ub-U/s1600-h/redwings_5.JPG.

3. With respect to placing the pepperoni slices on top rather than under the cheese, if you feel that the locals will favor the pepperoni on top you might consider emulating a Buddy's Detroiter pizza, which has the pepperoni slices on top. As you will note from a Buddy's menu, such as the one at http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/Carryout101.pdf, the Buddy's Detroiter pizza uses a tomato basil sauce (their so-called Tomato Basil sauce), a spice blend and shaved Parmesan cheese. Using some fresh basil in the sauce might make for a nice touch.

4. Did you like going back to the use of salt in the dough?

5. I believe that the only loose ends in this project are the Kraft's brick cheese matter, the receipt and testing of the Widmer's brick cheese, and the possibility of testing the Stanislaus Super Dolce Super Sweet, Super Heavy Pizza Sauce (http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/_pdfs/Super-Dolce-Pizza-Sauce.pdf).

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1103 on: January 09, 2013, 04:02:12 PM »
 I ever offered to let him taste my pizza different times for free, but he would never taste it.
Norma

Edit:  This is Rocco's pizzeria. http://www.eatroccos.com/index.html
Ole Rocco jus don't know what he's missing!!   ::)
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Offline Ev

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1104 on: January 09, 2013, 05:04:56 PM »
Ole Rocco's just a....Oh, nevermind! >:D :-D

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1105 on: January 09, 2013, 05:15:42 PM »
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 05:18:40 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1106 on: January 09, 2013, 06:01:58 PM »
Norma,

It looks like you had a very good day yesterday. All of the pizzas look great including the ones you made to honor Steve and me. The Pete-zza TexItaliano pizza looks very appetizing. At first I thought that the green peppers were ordinary bell peppers. But it looks like they were jalapenos, and quite a few of them at that. I hope that that specialty pizza sells well and that the locals can handle the jalapenos. If the TexItaliano pizza doesn't sell well, my feelings won't be hurt if you discontinue it or modify it.

It was a lot of fun working with you on the Buddy's reverse engineering and cloning project. I think we both learned a lot of new things. However, it still remains that PizzaHog was the moving force and inspiration for what we did. He was the pioneer.

As usual, I have a few questions and observations.

1. From the dough formulation posted in Reply 1084 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg230851.html#msg230851, you indicated a dough ball size for the 4-square of 9.5 ounces. For the 8-square, you indicated a dough ball weight of 18 ounces. Since Buddy's says that it uses twice as much dough for the 8-square, was there a reason why you went with 18 ounces instead of 19 ounces?

2. I assume that you used the same weights of cheese, sauce and pepperoni for the 4-squares as you have done before. Can you tell us which tomatoes you used to make the sauce and in what amounts, including any added water? As for putting down the sauce in dollops rather than pure stripes, that is often the way that I have seen it done with Buddy's pizzas, an example of which is shown at http://bp0.blogger.com/__XShj91sMpw/RlJCGZFbuCI/AAAAAAAAAk4/jIeRhr1ub-U/s1600-h/redwings_5.JPG.

3. With respect to placing the pepperoni slices on top rather than under the cheese, if you feel that the locals will favor the pepperoni on top you might consider emulating a Buddy's Detroiter pizza, which has the pepperoni slices on top. As you will note from a Buddy's menu, such as the one at http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/Carryout101.pdf, the Buddy's Detroiter pizza uses a tomato basil sauce (their so-called Tomato Basil sauce), a spice blend and shaved Parmesan cheese. Using some fresh basil in the sauce might make for a nice touch.

4. Did you like going back to the use of salt in the dough?

5. I believe that the only loose ends in this project are the Kraft's brick cheese matter, the receipt and testing of the Widmer's brick cheese, and the possibility of testing the Stanislaus Super Dolce Super Sweet, Super Heavy Pizza Sauce (http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/_pdfs/Super-Dolce-Pizza-Sauce.pdf).

Peter


Peter,

It was one of my better days yesterday in that almost everything clicked about right with the Buddy‘s clone pizzas, with some minor problems like the hills and valley Buddy‘s clone pizza.  Do you think that dough was tempered too long and that was what caused the hill and valley pizza?  If it was, then timing will be very challenging when tempering the Buddy’s clone dough balls.  Even the Buddy’s clone named after Steve, which was the last dough ball used didn’t have those hills and valleys.  So far, (since yesterday) I know it might be possible to use the cold fermented dough balls until the evening if I am lucky.  That would take me though the whole day with one dough batch. 

I removed the seeds from the jalapenos so even if there were quite a few of them when they were diced the pizza wasn’t that hot.  I don’t know how hot my customers might like their pizzas so I really wouldn’t want to offer a really hot pizza.  Steve and I also like a little heat, but not a lot, so I think if Steve and I really liked the Pete-zza TexItaliano customers will also like it.  The flea mill market manager and Dave really liked the TexItaliano.  They also both said all the combination of flavors were fantastic.  They couldn’t get over how good it was.  I could also offer dhorst’s special sauce for customers if they like a little more heat to be drizzled over the baked Pete-zza TexItaliano. 

I also have enjoyed working with you on the Buddy’s reverse engineering and cloning project.  I agree we both learned a lot of new things on this thread.  This thread was never meant to be a reverse engineering and cloning project though and if Trenton Bill wouldn’t have talked me into trying what he did, I never would have been making this Buddy’s clone pizza.

I know it still remains that PizzaHog was the moving force and inspiration for what we did.  I give PizzaHog 5 stars or chef’s hats for all the work he did that finally got me into trying the Buddy’s clones.  :chef: :chef: :chef: :chef: :chef:  If it wasn’t for PizzaHog, I wouldn’t be able to offer these Buddy’s clone pizzas at market.  I can only hope if PizzaHog reads this post he will know how much I appreciate all of his hard work on the Buddy’s thread.   ;D

It still remains to be seen how people in our area will like the Buddy’s clones pizzas and if they will continue liking them, but so far it seems positive.  For all of the comments made from customers so far it makes me feel very lucky that PizzaHog is a member and had posted about his findings on the Buddy’s thread.  8)  Thank you PizzaHog from the bottom of my heart!!!

1.  As you probably know there is no rhyme or reason why I tried 18 ounces instead of 19 ounces for the 8-square pizzas, but I was just curious if that would work.  I know Buddy’s says it uses twice as much dough for the 8-square.  I don’t know if I will change to 19 ounces next week or not.  Do you think I should try 19 ounces for the 8-square next week?

2.  No, I haven’t been using the same weights of cheese, sauce and pepperoni for the 4-squares as I have done before.  I am into more free handing now and using less of the cheese blend than Buddy’s does.  Since I am not a high volume pizza business like Buddy’s is, I have to try and use less of the cheese blend.  I will have to weight what I use sometime, so I will know in the future of what to really use by weight.  I used my regular market sauce made with Stanislaus Saporito Super Heavy Pizza sauce with my added ingredients and water which is a little more than 50%.  I do plan on using whatever amount of pepperoni I think I need.  Thanks for referencing that picture again of the Buddy’s pizza sauce with the dollops rather than pure stripes.  That seemed to have worked well yesterday for the sag problems. 

3.  I will have to think about trying to make a Buddy’s Detroiter clone pizza to offer.  I don’t want to have to offer too many specialty pizzas at first until I see what happens and what the customers reactions are.  Also, I have to worry about my other two styles of pizzas I offer now.  Trying to make 3 styles of pizzas with only two people might also be challenging when spring and summer comes.  Steve and I were hopping yesterday to keep up with everything.  When there are only two people to do dishes, make pizzas, warm-up slices, dress pizzas, cut them, use the cash register, make change and also make whole pizzas etc. it can sometimes get hectic and although I can move, at the end of the day I am really tired.  At least for right now, I think the customers will at least be able to see it is a pepperoni and cheese pizza if the pepperoni if put on last.  As I posted before, the pepperoni really can’t be tasted that much if placed under the cheese blend.

4.  I don’t know if I like using salt in the dough more than not using salt.  The tempering and doughs handled well though.  What are you thoughts on why that happened.  Do you think the salt helped?

5.  In my next post I will explain more about the loose ends of the Kraft brick cheese and the Widmer’s brick cheese.  I also have to call Stanislaus on trying to get a sample of the Stanislaus Super Sweet, Super Heavy Pizza Sauce.  With the holidays and Steve not being at market, I didn’t get to try and obtain a sample of that sauce.  I will call though next week about trying to obtain a sample. I have to help my one daughter move the rest of this week.  I still have the Buddy’s extra sauce frozen, so it is in safe keeping for right now. 

Thanks so much for all of your help on this thread! Here's to the Buddy's clone pizzas.  :pizza: :pizza:

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1107 on: January 09, 2013, 06:06:03 PM »
Ole Rocco jus don't know what he's missing!!   ::)

Bob,

Rocco name is Lorenzo, but I think Lorenzo is his last name.  I have no idea why Rocco never would taste one of my pizzas.

Ole Rocco's just a....Oh, nevermind! >:D :-D

Steve,

You also know Rocco and what he is like.   >:D :angel:  I could say more, but will keep my mouth shut for one time.  :-D

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1108 on: January 09, 2013, 06:12:11 PM »
Joe Widmer had told me to remind him about the brick cheese samples after the holidays.  I emailed Joe last week and reminded him about the brick cheese samples.  I received the brick cheese samples today.  The one brick cheese sample is the Wisconsin Mild Brick Cheese and is a little more yellow in color than the other brick cheeses I tried and the other brick cheese samples from Joe is Wisconsin Lager Kase Brick Cheese.

I also sent an email to Fritz of Kraft Foods this morning and asked him if he found out anymore about Kraft’s brick cheese.  This is the reply I received from Fritz.

Hi Norma,
Here’s the information I’ve received from Category regarding Brick Cheese!

Hello Fritz,
I have received confirmation that our Polly-O plant does not produce this type of cheese and they do not believe any of our other plants produce it either.

Some additional information which was passed along:
Widmer’s Cheese Cellars in Theresa Wisconsin. still makes a 5# brick. Customer service 888-878-1107, or 920-488-2503.

I hope this information is helpful!
Please let me know if this works for you.
Take Care and Have a Great Day!

Fritz

I guess Kraft doesn’t produce the brick cheese anymore and I guess I never will be able to make a rollback Buddy’s clone pizza since I can’t obtain any of the Kraft brick cheese.  It makes me wonder if Kraft just produced the brick cheese for Buddy’s like it appears Foremost Farms does now.  Fritz didn’t answer my question about if Buddy’s did use brick cheese on their Detroit style pizza in the past.  Should I try to get Fritz to find out if Buddy’s did use Kraft at one time, or shouldn’t I bother since we know Kraft’s did provide Buddy’s with brick cheese at one time?

On a less happy note is I checked my little bit of Eddie’s brick cheese I was saving to try on a Buddy’s clone pizza and there is some mold on it.   :(

Norma
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 06:18:18 PM by norma427 »
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1109 on: January 09, 2013, 06:22:31 PM »
Norma,
I'm glad your customers are digging your new pizza's....the way you prepare those Buddy's clone pies is outta sight and just goes to show that you must have some pretty hip pizza people there at the Root's Market.
Thanks so much for your work on this thread.... 8)
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"


Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1110 on: January 09, 2013, 07:01:15 PM »
Norma,
I'm glad your customers are digging your new pizza's....the way you prepare those Buddy's clone pies is outta sight and just goes to show that you must have some pretty hip pizza people there at the Root's Market.
Thanks so much for your work on this thread.... 8)

Bob,

Thanks for saying you are glad that my customers are liking the Buddy’s clone pizzas.   There are many hip stand holders and customers at market.  I only can hope that this thread helps someone someday that wants to make Buddy’s clone pizzas, just like all of PizzaHogs posts did on the Buddy’s thread helped me.  I am still learning  how all of this comes together and when warmer weather comes I might have to change some things.  With all of my varying temperatures at market, things do change when making pizzas.

Bobby Flay was at market sometime, but I am trying to find out when he was there from market people.  I saw someone post different links on facebook about Bobby Flay being at Root’s, but can’t find that episode on the Food Network to watch it, or find when he was there.  I think Bobby Flay was at the roast beef food stand eating their roast beef sandwiches. 

Just a little note to say my two customers did come back yesterday that wanted to try my Buddy’s clones when I didn’t have my act together enough to have them ready earlier in the morning.  At least yesterday I did have them ready from all of the help of Peter and PizzaHog on this thread. 

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1111 on: January 09, 2013, 07:11:35 PM »
Norma,

It was one of my better days yesterday in that almost everything clicked about right with the Buddy‘s clone pizzas, with some minor problems like the hills and valley Buddy‘s clone pizza.  Do you think that dough was tempered too long and that was what caused the hill and valley pizza?  If it was, then timing will be very challenging when tempering the Buddy’s clone dough balls.  Even the Buddy’s clone named after Steve, which was the last dough ball used didn’t have those hills and valleys.  So far, (since yesterday) I know it might be possible to use the cold fermented dough balls until the evening if I am lucky.  That would take me though the whole day with one dough batch.
Having followed all of your Buddy's clone dough experiments, I am inclined to think that the sagging phenomenon and the hills and valleys in the doughs may be structural factors involving the dough. Implicit in that statement is that the dough be sufficiently developed so that the gluten matrix optimally captures and retains the gases of fermentation. If there are discontinuities in the dough due to mixing and kneading, they may manifest themselves in the final crust topography in the form of hills and valleys. It is also quite possible that omitting the salt contributes to the hills and valleys, especially at high hydration values, because there is no strengthening of the gluten matrix and dough when the salt is omitted. We also shouldn't forget the matter of the degree of hydration. If the hydration is too high, and especially if there is little or no salt, you may end up with a structurally weakened dough. A long temper period can also lead to a weakened dough structure because of the large quantity of gases of fermentation and related dough expansion. Maybe with continued experimentation you will find the proper balance of all of the factors that affect the final dough structure.

1.  As you probably know there is no rhyme or reason why I tried 18 ounces instead of 19 ounces for the 8-square pizzas, but I was just curious if that would work.  I know Buddy’s says it uses twice as much dough for the 8-square.  I don’t know if I will change to 19 ounces next week or not.  Do you think I should try 19 ounces for the 8-square next week?
I thought that perhaps you wanted the 4-square to be based on 9.5 ounces of dough and the 8-square to be based on twice the 9-ounce dough ball size. Unfortunately, there is too much slack in the numbers to know what dough ball size Buddy's actually uses. Because of the low sodium numbers that I have discussed previously on several occasions, I even wondered whether Buddy's is using less than a 9-ounce dough ball weight. That would ameliorate the sodium numbers somewhat but still not enough to move the needle closer to the Buddy's sodium numbers.

2.  No, I haven’t been using the same weights of cheese, sauce and pepperoni for the 4-squares as I have done before.  I am into more free handing now and using less of the cheese blend than Buddy’s does.  Since I am not a high volume pizza business like Buddy’s is, I have to try and use less of the cheese blend.  I will have to weight what I use sometime, so I will know in the future of what to really use by weight.  I used my regular market sauce made with Stanislaus Saporito Super Heavy Pizza sauce with my added ingredients and water which is a little more than 50%.  I do plan on using whatever amount of pepperoni I think I need.  Thanks for referencing that picture again of the Buddy’s pizza sauce with the dollops rather than pure stripes.  That seemed to have worked well yesterday for the sag problems.
I have never been able to make sense out of the fat numbers given in Buddy's Nutrition facts even though Buddy's confirmed the fat numbers for the Foremost Farms brick cheese. I am suspicious enough to believe that Buddy's may be using less cheese on their pizzas than they say they do. It might have become a simple habit that they fell into and, hence, they just say that there is about two ounces of cheese per slice. If they used just 1.51 ounces of cheese per slice on average, that would be about two ounces on a rounding basis. The reduced amount of cheese would lower the sodium numbers but, as before, would not move the sodium needle enough to satisfy the Buddy's Nutrition information. In your case, I think it is prudent to use what you feel works best for your purposes at market. The same goes for the pepperoni although I sense that people like more pepperoni better than less.  

4.  I don’t know if I like using salt in the dough more than not using salt.  The tempering and doughs handled well though.  What are you thoughts on why that happened.  Do you think the salt helped?
As noted above, it is possible that using salt in the dough strengthened the gluten structure and dough. If it were to be omitted, it might be necessary to lower the hydration value and it might become necessary for you closely monitor the tempering of the dough so that you don't end up with a dough that is billowy and with a weakened structure. Maybe the amount of yeast can be reduced also. If you and your customers are happy with salt in the dough and the taste of the finished crusts and pizzas, maybe there is no need to try to perfect a salt-free dough. As you know, I was trying to nail down what I believe Buddy's is doing based on their own Nutrition information.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1112 on: January 09, 2013, 07:39:06 PM »
I guess Kraft doesn’t produce the brick cheese anymore and I guess I never will be able to make a rollback Buddy’s clone pizza since I can’t obtain any of the Kraft brick cheese.  It makes me wonder if Kraft just produced the brick cheese for Buddy’s like it appears Foremost Farms does now.  Fritz didn’t answer my question about if Buddy’s did use brick cheese on their Detroit style pizza in the past.  Should I try to get Fritz to find out if Buddy’s did use Kraft at one time, or shouldn’t I bother since we know Kraft’s did provide Buddy’s with brick cheese at one time?

Norma,

I think it was sufficient to just confirm that Kraft's is no longer making brick cheese for Buddy's. Brick cheese must not be a hot or large volume item. Even Foremost Farms' own website does not say much about brick cheese, such as where it is made, although a pdf spec sheet is available for their brick cheese.

FYI, the brick cheese that you received from jeff v and used on your latest pizzas has 200 mg sodium per ounce; the Foremost Farms brick cheese has 180 mg sodium per ounce. The two Widmer brick cheeses are lower on the sodium content, with 140 mg sodium per ounce. I believe that the lowest sodium content I have seen for a brick cheese is 135 mg, for the County Castle brick cheese. The higher values of sodium does not mean that Buddy's is using cheese with those values. It is possible, for example, that Buddy's has asked its supplier to use less salt, which would translate into less sodium. But even at the lower sodium levels, and assuming even less cheese than 2 ounces per slice, I could not get the sodium numbers to work. That doesn't mean that Buddy's does not add any salt to its dough. I recall speaking with the corporate chef at Malnati's and asking him why some of their nutrition numbers were zero whereas the related ingredients were listed in their ingredients list. He said that the ingredients were indeed included in the dough but when the numbers were scaled down to the single dough ball size (it was their LouToGo dough), the values were so small that, under FDA regulations, they could be listed as zero.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1113 on: January 09, 2013, 07:56:06 PM »
Norma,
Having followed all of your Buddy's clone dough experiments, I am inclined to think that the sagging phenomenon and the hills and valleys in the doughs may be structural factors involving the dough. Implicit in that statement is that the dough be sufficiently developed so that the gluten matrix optimally captures and retains the gases of fermentation. If there are discontinuities in the dough due to mixing and kneading, they may manifest themselves in the final crust topography in the form of hills and valleys. It is also quite possible that omitting the salt contributes to the hills and valleys, especially at high hydration values, because there is no strengthening of the gluten matrix and dough when the salt is omitted. We also shouldn't forget the matter of the degree of hydration. If the hydration is too high, and especially if there is little or no salt, you may end up with a structurally weakened dough. A long temper period can also lead to a weakened dough structure because of the large quantity of gases of fermentation and related dough expansion. Maybe with continued experimentation you will find the proper balance of all of the factors that affect the final dough structure.
I thought that perhaps you wanted the 4-square to be based on 9.5 ounces of dough and the 8-square to be based on twice the 9-ounce dough ball size. Unfortunately, there is too much slack in the numbers to know what dough ball size Buddy's actually uses. Because of the low sodium numbers that I have discussed previously on several occasions, I even wondered whether Buddy's is using less than a 9-ounce dough ball weight. That would ameliorate the sodium numbers somewhat but still not enough to move the needle closer to the Buddy's sodium numbers.
I have never been able to make sense out of the fat numbers given in Buddy's Nutrition facts even though Buddy's confirmed the fat numbers for the Foremost Farms brick cheese. I am suspicious enough to believe that Buddy's may be using less cheese on their pizzas than they say they do. It might have become a simple habit that they fell into and, hence, they just say that there is about two ounces of cheese per slice. If they used just 1.51 ounces of cheese per slice on average, that would be about two ounces on a rounding basis. The reduced amount of cheese would lower the sodium numbers but, as before, would not move the sodium needle enough to satisfy the Buddy's Nutrition information. In your case, I think it is prudent to use what you feel works best for your purposes at market. The same goes for the pepperoni although I sense that people like more pepperoni better than less.  
As noted above, it is possible that using salt in the dough strengthened the gluten structure and dough. If it were to be omitted, it might be necessary to lower the hydration value and it might become necessary for you closely monitor the tempering of the dough so that you don't end up with a dough that is billowy and with a weakened structure. Maybe the amount of yeast can be reduced also. If you and your customers are happy with salt in the dough and the taste of the finished crusts and pizzas, maybe there is no need to try to perfect a salt-free dough. As you know, I was trying to nail down what I believe Buddy's is doing based on their own Nutrition information.

Peter


Peter,

Thank you for your thoughts about the sagging phenomenon of the hills and valleys in the final Buddy’s clone pizza from yesterday, in that it might be structural factors involving the dough.  I can understand that the dough needs to be sufficiently developed so that the gluten matrix optimally captures and retains the gases of fermentation.  I wonder if I am mixing enough now since I am only using the flat beater in my Hobart mixer and really don’t mix that long.  I guess I have become accustomed to mixing less for my NY style doughs and that is why I try to mix less with the Buddy‘s clone too.  That might not be a good thing with a higher hydration dough with less protein in the flour too.  I am not doing any stretch and folds either.  I am a little bit confused on that though on what to try.  At least there didn’t seem to be problems with the last dough Steve tried yesterday.  Hopefully, I will learn more as I go on experimenting and hopefully I won’t go backward again.  I think I am going to keep the salt in the dough, because I don’t want anymore problems of trying to lower the hydration and having to monitor the tempering of the dough more.  I would like to offer a dough without salt, because all of the other stuff on the Buddy’s clone pizza along with the oil sure can’t be good for people. 

No, I didn’t have any reason for trying the smaller weight dough ball for the 8-square.  The 8-square dough in the steels pans did seem to temper about the same or maybe a little faster in the Hatco Unit.  I am not sure of that though and will continue to watch what happens.  I also wonder what size dough balls Buddy’s really uses.  I never even though of less than a 9 ounce dough ball, or if I did I didn’t recall thinking about it.

Did you ever think about calling that lady at Buddy’s that I gave the number and extension to at my one post to see if she could give you any more information?  She probably would tell you everything is proprietary though.  As you know I can’t make any sense of the Buddy’s Nutrition facts, but who’s to know if Buddy’s really follow everything with Nutrition facts, when we already know they don’t measure the cheese by weight and the coarse grind pepperoni slices are very variable too in weights. 

I also sense that customers prefer more pepperoni than less.

I also think I need to contact Foremost Farms again next week about their brick cheese.  I forgot about PizzaHog’s post, or didn’t pay any attention to it at that time because I wasn’t working on a Detroit style pizza, but PizzaHog posted at Reply 41 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16820.msg164532.html#msg164532  that Zane’s brother and PizzaHog did split a 40 lb. block of Foremost Farms brick cheese.  I wonder now whether Foremost Farms gave me a wrong answer about if the brick cheese could be purchased in smaller amounts.  PizzaHog’s post was only from about a little more than a year ago, so that leads me to believe that Foremost Farms brick cheese can be purchased in 40 lb blocks. 

PizzaHog also said in the above post that Detroit style pizza have changed over the time and he commented that those changes for whatever reasons always resulted in less he thought.  PizzaHog also said his last Buddy’s pizza was a disappointment.  I wonder what is happening in Detroit in their Detroit style pizzas.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1114 on: January 09, 2013, 08:05:09 PM »
Norma,

I think it was sufficient to just confirm that Kraft's is no longer making brick cheese for Buddy's. Brick cheese must not be a hot or large volume item. Even Foremost Farms' own website does not say much about brick cheese, such as where it is made, although a pdf spec sheet is available for their brick cheese.

FYI, the brick cheese that you received from jeff v and used on your latest pizzas has 200 mg sodium per ounce; the Foremost Farms brick cheese has 180 mg sodium per ounce. The two Widmer brick cheeses are lower on the sodium content, with 140 mg sodium per ounce. I believe that the lowest sodium content I have seen for a brick cheese is 135 mg, for the County Castle brick cheese. The higher values of sodium does not mean that Buddy's is using cheese with those values. It is possible, for example, that Buddy's has asked its supplier to use less salt, which would translate into less sodium. But even at the lower sodium levels, and assuming even less cheese than 2 ounces per slice, I could not get the sodium numbers to work. That doesn't mean that Buddy's does not add any salt to its dough. I recall speaking with the corporate chef at Malnati's and asking him why some of their nutrition numbers were zero whereas the related ingredients were listed in their ingredients list. He said that the ingredients were indeed included in the dough but when the numbers were scaled down to the single dough ball size (it was their LouToGo dough), the values were so small that, under FDA regulations, they could be listed as zero.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for comparing the brick cheese Jeff sent me along with the other sodium numbers for brick cheeses.  As I posted in my last post, I sure don’t understand all of those Nutrition facts, but know you do and you also want to get the sodium numbers to work.  I find it interesting that you recall speaking with the corporate chef at Malnati’s and asking him why some of their nutrition numbers were zero whereas the related ingredients were listed in their ingredients list.  I can see when the ingredients were scaled down to one dough ball the values were so small that FDA regulations said they could be listed as zero.  I wonder if we will ever find out if Buddy’s uses any salt in its dough.  I think that is highly doubtful.

Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1115 on: January 09, 2013, 09:23:46 PM »

On a facebook page I am on that pizza is also experimented with some, (including other foods) I think I found something that was said that was interesting to me.

The one commenter said.

But what it is - is marketing. I grew up in Detroit. There is no "Detroit style" pizza except what this guy declares it is. No 'historical background' involved.

I asked the commenter if she had ever been to Buddy’s or Shields.

She said:

Yes to Buddy's and Shields. What I meant by my comment is only that the phrase "Detroit-style" is not actually used much around Detroit.

At Buddy's, they call it "original square pizza" and at Shields it's "award-winning deep dish pizza". I prefer Buddy's to Shields, but both of them are too bready and too greasy for my personal taste.

It makes wonder why the commenter said that Buddy’s pizzas are bready and if they really are.  I thought the half baked Buddy’s pizza I purchase was a little on the denser side than what I have been experimenting with, but then I also though maybe Steve and I didn’t do the rest of the bake right on the half baked Buddy‘s pizza. 

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1116 on: January 09, 2013, 09:35:23 PM »
Norma,

Thank you for your thoughts about the sagging phenomenon of the hills and valleys in the final Buddy’s clone pizza from yesterday, in that it might be structural factors involving the dough.  I can understand that the dough needs to be sufficiently developed so that the gluten matrix optimally captures and retains the gases of fermentation.  I wonder if I am mixing enough now since I am only using the flat beater in my Hobart mixer and really don’t mix that long.  I guess I have become accustomed to mixing less for my NY style doughs and that is why I try to mix less with the Buddy‘s clone too.  That might not be a good thing with a higher hydration dough with less protein in the flour too.  I am not doing any stretch and folds either.  I am a little bit confused on that though on what to try.  At least there didn’t seem to be problems with the last dough Steve tried yesterday.  Hopefully, I will learn more as I go on experimenting and hopefully I won’t go backward again.

As you know, making a dough in a home environment with a standard stand mixer is different than making dough in a commercial setting using a commercial mixer. Sometime, you might try making a Buddy's clone dough batch at market, or maybe a small test batch at home, that uses a longer knead time, to more fully develop the gluten structure. That would not be unusual for a high hydration dough and need not penalize the finished crust and crumb in terms of airiness or texture. See, for example, the dough and pizza described at https://sites.google.com/site/hollosyt/quickrusticciabattapizza. My recollection is that the hydration of the dough described in that article was around 90% or so but the principles might be the same for a dough with a hydration of around 71%, but with a shorter total knead time.

I think I am going to keep the salt in the dough, because I don’t want anymore problems of trying to lower the hydration and having to monitor the tempering of the dough more.  I would like to offer a dough without salt, because all of the other stuff on the Buddy’s clone pizza along with the oil sure can’t be good for people.

Interestingly, Buddy's often touts its pizzas as being healthy and, in so doing, often mentions that their dough contains no oil or sugar, both of which have become villains in certain health and nutrition circles. However, if Buddy's is using no salt in its dough, or very little salt, it has not touted that fact even though salt content of foods has been under attack for many years. Knowing that people often equate no salt with no taste, I am not sure that I would tell people that the dough has no salt either. Also, since there are people out there, like you and me, who are trying to reverse engineer and clone their dough, telling the world that there is little or no salt in their dough would not be a good idea.

Did you ever think about calling that lady at Buddy’s that I gave the number and extension to at my one post to see if she could give you any more information?  She probably would tell you everything is proprietary though.  As you know I can’t make any sense of the Buddy’s Nutrition facts, but who’s to know if Buddy’s really follow everything with Nutrition facts, when we already know they don’t measure the cheese by weight and the coarse grind pepperoni slices are very variable too in weights.

It is very difficult to frame highly technical matters as though they are coming from a typical consumer. Ordinary consumers do not try to determine how much cheese and sauce is used on pizzas, including the brands of those ingredients, and then do all kinds of calculations to determine if any salt is used in the dough.

I also think I need to contact Foremost Farms again next week about their brick cheese.  I forgot about PizzaHog’s post, or didn’t pay any attention to it at that time because I wasn’t working on a Detroit style pizza, but PizzaHog posted at Reply 41 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16820.msg164532.html#msg164532  that Zane’s brother and PizzaHog did split a 40 lb. block of Foremost Farms brick cheese.  I wonder now whether Foremost Farms gave me a wrong answer about if the brick cheese could be purchased in smaller amounts.  PizzaHog’s post was only from about a little more than a year ago, so that leads me to believe that Foremost Farms brick cheese can be purchased in 40 lb blocks.

If I had to guess, the Hunt boys at Via 313, having lived in the Detroit area, where PizzaHog also lives, were perhaps testing out the Foremost Farms brick cheese that perhaps was reasonably available in the Detroit area. As we have discovered, there really aren't that many suppliers who can provide commercial quantities of brick cheese to multiple end users, such as Buddy's, Loui's, Shield's, Tony's, etc. Just as Klausie's had trouble sourcing good brick cheese in Raleigh, others outside of the Midwest may also have problems getting good brick cheese locally.
 
PizzaHog also said in the above post that Detroit style pizza have changed over the time and he commented that those changes for whatever reasons always resulted in less he thought.  PizzaHog also said his last Buddy’s pizza was a disappointment.  I wonder what is happening in Detroit in their Detroit style pizzas.

As has been widely reported in the press, Detroit has been suffering for some time, economically, politically and otherwise. Operating successfully and profitably in such an environment, and also in an environment where the prices of pizza ingredients has been rising quite dramatically, just as we have experienced with our own pizza ingredients, can be extremely challenging. So, looking for cheaper substitutes and cost cutting as much as possible may be behind the lowered quality of the end products. Also, consumers may have less disposable income to spend on pizza, so cheapening the product may be needed to keep existing customers.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1117 on: January 09, 2013, 09:56:04 PM »
Norma,

On a facebook page I am on that pizza is also experimented with some, (including other foods) I think I found something that was said that was interesting to me.

The one commenter said.

But what it is - is marketing. I grew up in Detroit. There is no "Detroit style" pizza except what this guy declares it is. No 'historical background' involved.

I asked the commenter if she had ever been to Buddy’s or Shields.

She said:

Yes to Buddy's and Shields. What I meant by my comment is only that the phrase "Detroit-style" is not actually used much around Detroit.

At Buddy's, they call it "original square pizza" and at Shields it's "award-winning deep dish pizza". I prefer Buddy's to Shields, but both of them are too bready and too greasy for my personal taste.

I would say that the Facebook commentor is correct and is consistent with what shuboyle (Jeff) said at Reply 590 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg226080.html#msg226080. At the same time, it looks like the Detroit Style Pizza Co is trying to popularize that style of pizza outside of the Detroit area by changing its name. You can see that objective at the Via 313 website at http://via313.com/style ("Spread the Revolution") and similarly at the Brown Dog Pizza in Telluride CO at http://www.browndogpizza.net/story.php.

It makes wonder why the commenter said that Buddy’s pizzas are bready and if they really are.  I thought the half baked Buddy’s pizza I purchase was a little on the denser side than what I have been experimenting with, but then I also though maybe Steve and I didn’t do the rest of the bake right on the half baked Buddy‘s pizza. 

The term "bready" is so general and vague that I wouldn't know what meaning to attach to it. The "greasy" complaint is a fairly common one, especially if a 4-square pizza contains a half-pound of brick cheese with a high fat content.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1118 on: January 09, 2013, 11:19:05 PM »
I also have to watch how I put the dough balls in the steel pan in the deli case.  My shelves on my deli case are slanting shelves, so some of the dough balls slid to the one side of the steel pan.  I need to put the one end of the steel pan on the ledge of the slating shelves so the dough balls will stay in the middle of the steel pans. 

I also think I am oiling my steel pans too much with Canola oil and will have to try less Canola oil next week. 

Norma

Norma,

Can't you just put a piece of dowel or something under the lower end of the pan to prop it up to level?

I like the butter-flavored Crisco to oil my pans for Detroit pizza.  What I especially like is that it sticks to the sides of the pan, all the way to the top of the crust.  Finished pizzas slide right out.  I suppose you could use plain Crisco if you don't like the butter taste, but I actually think the butter adds another flavor note.

Gene

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1119 on: January 09, 2013, 11:41:28 PM »
I also told Steve I wanted the name a pizza after him and asked him if he would come up with a name and dressings for a Buddy’s clone pizza.  Steve named his pizza Marco Pollo.  The Marco Pollo Buddy’s clone pizza was also very good.  Many customers stopped to say how good it looked.  I will let Steve post if he wants to in what dressings were used for his Marco Pollo Buddy’s clone pizza.  I didn’t know what kind of pizza Steve was going to come up with and he brought the extra dressings yesterday and we just used my dough and cheese blends.  When Steve wrote out his sign he mistakenly put Marco Polo on the sign, but the sign should have read Ev’s Marco Pollo.

Steve used the dough ball with the poppy seeds on to watch how that dough ball fermented.  The poppy seeds were measured at 9:30 AM and at 3:10 PM.  The dough ball was used about 5:30 PM to make Ev’s Marco Pollo Buddy’s clone pizza.  

Norma

Norma,

What were the temperature and bake time on those pizzas?  They look very good.  Also, what kind of oven?

Gene


 

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