Author Topic: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 218010 times)

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Online norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1125 on: January 10, 2013, 08:20:20 AM »
As someone born and bred in Detroit, I think the lady is only part right.  It's true, when I grew up in Detroit, we never used the term, "Detroit pizza."  I only started using it... well, here, when I started the Buddy's thread, because it was only after leaving Detroit that I realized that the style was unique.  But in Detroit, the it was just, "Let's got to Buddy's... or Shield's or whatever.  Neither me nor any of my friends were "pizzaphiles," just kids that liked pizza.  We liked Buddy's, Shield's, etc. better than plain old round pizza or Sicilian, but we didn't know, or particularly care, why - it just tasted good!

Though I don't know, I suspect that people in Chicago called their unique style "deep-dish pizza" or something, until it became widely known to people beyond Chicago.

So today, I can say "Chicago pizza" and people know what I'm talking about.  But say "Detroit pizza" and I'm sure I would get a blank stare and need to explain what a "Detroit pizza" is.  In fact, I have a friend here in NYC, who grew up in Detroit, but had no idea what I meant by "Detroit pizza" and in fact had never heard of Buddy's!

But maybe, as the "gospel" of Detroit pizza spreads, maybe that will change...  :^)

Gene


Gene,

Thank you for explaining more about using the term ďDetroit PizzaĒ and what your thoughts about that are.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1126 on: January 10, 2013, 08:55:06 AM »
Norma,

I know my Kitchen Aid mixer doesnít mix exactly the same as my Hobart mixer does, and my Hobart is usually faster and does mix better, but I found something Steve told me Tuesday interesting.  Steve told me my crumbs at market are softer than when he used the same formulation as I did (by that I mean the slices just about melt in your mouth if that can be understood (when the BuddyĎs clone doughs are tempered right).  I told Steve my best results on both mixers are when I just use the flat beater on my Kitchen Aid and Hobart mixers and I told him the mixes are on speeds like 1 first then 2 and 3 and sometimes 4 on my Kitchen Aid mixer.  I mix until the dough isnít really sticky in both mixers.  I found Steveís comment about my crumb being different than his crumb somewhat strange, because even at home my Buddyís clone are almost the same in the softer crumb.  Steve told me he doesnít have a flat beater or a Kitchen Aid mixer and mostly mixes by hand and sometimes uses his Bosch mixer if I recall right.  Steve then does stretches and folds different times when I donít do that with my Buddyís clone doughs.  Do you have any explanation as why Steveís Buddyís clone pizzas donít turn out like mine in the crumb?  Maybe if Steve sees this post he can also explain more.  Steve has been looking at some used Kitchen Aid mixers, but I donít know if he will get one or not. 

I am not sure either how far I am developing the gluten structure really at either places, but to me the dough feels strong when trying to be stretched right out of both mixers.  I guess what I am trying to explain is the dough feels something like when trying to feel is the dough is windowpaning if that makes any sense to you.  It can be seen in some of my photos of how the dough balls look after being formed after I divide and scale.  I guess I could mix longer to see what happens.  I also did work on some higher hydration doughs before like in the Pizzarium thread and I know what it takes to get that kind of higher hydration dough stronger.  My way for that is using the stretch and fold methods.
It sounds to me that you are doing a good job with the kneading of your Buddy's clone doughs. Because of the relatively high hydration of such doughs, I also think that it is important to get sufficient gluten development, even to the point of being able to pass the windowpane test. If using the paddle or flat beater attachment helps that process along, then I would continue to use it. I do that myself for just about all doughs, for pretty much all hydration values, before switching to the dough hook on my home KitchenAid stand mixer. However, the flat beater attachment does a better job with higher hydration doughs than lower hydration doughs. I have no good explanation for why Steve doesn't get results similar to yours. Maybe he can elaborate further on his methods.

This isnít related to the Buddyís clone pizzas and donít want to get too far off topic like I can, but find when trying to quote what someone said and erasing some things I donít want to quote the screen wants to jump too much to get rid of that stuff I donít want in my quote if lots of things need erased.  Do you have the same problems?  I see you can easily just put different quotes and then answer right under them, which I can't easily do.
I have not experienced the "jumping" problem you mentioned. My practice is to compose replies on the forum in real time (unless I am doing something really involved or complicated, in which case I compose in Word). I have learned just to use the proper quote commands where necessary to tie my responses to the particular material quoted. Everything else gets deleted. That way, I am not quoting entire posts, which takes up more space.

Peter

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1127 on: January 10, 2013, 09:36:06 AM »
Norma,
It sounds to me that you are doing a good job with the kneading of your Buddy's clone doughs. Because of the relatively high hydration of such doughs, I also think that it is important to get sufficient gluten development, even to the point of being able to pass the windowpane test. If using the paddle or flat beater attachment helps that process along, then I would continue to use it. I do that myself for just about all doughs, for pretty much all hydration values, before switching to the dough hook on my home KitchenAid stand mixer. However, the flat beater attachment does a better job with higher hydration doughs than lower hydration doughs. I have no good explanation for why Steve doesn't get results similar to yours. Maybe he can elaborate further on his methods.

Peter,

Good to hear that you think I am doing a good job of kneading the Buddyís clone doughs.  I might still need more improvements in mixing, but have been satisfied with most of my crumbs if the tempering is right and I donĎt have sags from when the sauce is applied. 

It is also good that you think there needs to be sufficient gluten development, even to the point of being able to pass the windowpane test.  Interesting that you also use the paddle or flat beater for about all of your doughs, before switching to the dough hook on your home Kitchen Aid stand mixer.

I will ask Steve to post about the differences in our crumbs since you have no explanation as why Steve doesnít get the same results as I do.  If I have a leftover Buddyís clone dough ball next week I am going to give Steve one to try in his home oven to see if it is really my mixing methods or something different that we get different results in the crumb.



I have not experienced the "jumping" problem you mentioned. My practice is to compose replies on the forum in real time (unless I am doing something really involved or complicated, in which case I compose in Word). I have learned just to use the proper quote commands where necessary to tie my responses to the particular material quoted. Everything else gets deleted. That way, I am not quoting entire posts, which takes up more space.

Peter

Thanks for your comments about you have not experienced the jumping problem I mentioned.  Even if I try to compose posts in real time and if they are a little longer, there is the jumping problem for me.  I think other members have posted about that before and if I recall right even Craig mentioned that.  The box where I type keeps jumping all over the place.  Maybe Steve the administrator also has an answer for that.  I can quote, but when trying to delete parts of a post that is when I have that darn jumping problem too.  I will have to work on not using up too much space.  If my posts are long, I then use my word processor.  Maybe sometime I might start a new thread on the jumping problem if I donít get it figured out.  I canít just cut out part of your posts.  I needed to start where I wanted to delete part of it and then hold my finger on the backspace button and then keep hitting it until I have all delete that I wanted to delete.  The typing screen then starting jumping again sometimes.  That can get frustrating for me.

Norma
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Offline Ev

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1128 on: January 10, 2013, 10:16:47 AM »
Actually, I've never used my mixer for the DS dough. I'm not sure the design of the Bosch is suitable for a small amount of high hydration dough.  Of course there's no harm in trying the mixer just to see. I've just mixed by hand along with a couple S&F. I wonder if this method and a higher gluten flour would yield a more similar result to Normas'?

Offline Skee

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1129 on: January 10, 2013, 12:14:45 PM »
I've just mixed by hand along with a couple S&F. I wonder if this method and a higher gluten flour would yield a more similar result to Normas'?
I'm using KASL with 70% hydration and 0.5% IDY with a quick mix with a paddle, five minute rest, then 2-3 minutes on speed 1 (in a Kitchen Aide).  The dough is sticky and rough at this point.  I just leave it in the bowl as-is and give it an hour at room temp followed by a couple of gentle kneads, weighing (350g for an 8x10), and balling.  The dough is now silky smooth and can form a tight ball.  After 24 hours of cold-proofing, I stretch the cold dough out to just fit the pan and let it warm to room temp, stretch a little more if it needs it, and then proof in a 100F oven for about an hour.  Baked at 475F for 16-18 minutes depending on toppings.  Here are some pics of the latest results:

Edit - corrected the IDy from 2% to 0.5% (was working from memory, the amount of IDY is ~2g).
  
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 11:14:31 AM by Skee »

Offline Ev

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1130 on: January 10, 2013, 12:21:59 PM »
Thanks Britt. I have some KASL but no KA mixer. I may try a hand mix with the KASL though.

 Good looking pie there, btw. The bottom looks nice and crispy.

Offline Skee

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1131 on: January 10, 2013, 12:28:20 PM »
Thanks Britt. I have some KASL but no KA mixer. I may try a hand mix with the KASL though.
 Good looking pie there, btw. The bottom looks nice and crispy.
I don't see why hand-mixing wouldn't work - basically doing that with the mixer.  The bottom and sides were just about perfect - once the pans are correctly seasoned, right at the end of baking the sides will pull off the wall just a little (like a cake) which keeps the cheese crust from burning while the bottom finishes. 

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1132 on: January 10, 2013, 03:43:47 PM »
Skee,
The killer bottom of your crust reminds me of a PH pan when they used to not be too bad. I'm wondering if it eats like that....sort of a nice slightly oily airy crispyness to it. Yum!  :)
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Offline Skee

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1133 on: January 10, 2013, 04:15:28 PM »
Yes, it's crispy, just slightly oily, and so soft and pillowy inside that you have to fight hard to not inhale the entire piece in one bite. 


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1134 on: January 10, 2013, 04:23:33 PM »
Yes, it's crispy, just slightly oily, and so soft and pillowy inside that you have to fight hard to not inhale the entire piece in one bite.  
Oh boy! That sounds real nice...would you say that is a traditional DS crust and have you ever done a same day dough with this? Thanks.
Bob
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Offline Skee

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1135 on: January 10, 2013, 05:14:12 PM »
I've never had a real DS pizza so can't directly compare with what I'm making, unfortunately.  We have relatives in Chicago, might have to tag along next time my wife makes a trip up there and take a side trip to Detroit just for sampling.

I've made a LOT of DS pizza in the last couple of months (at least four 4-slice pans a week, sometimes six) and have found two ways that work well for me with the dough - either dropping it into the pans after a short bulk rise (no balling) and then allowing it to spread and proof inside the pan for a couple hours at room temp, giving it a final stretch, then proofing in a warm oven before dressing (this is what I would do if I was making it commercially, think it's close to what Buddy's is doing from the pictures and what I've read), or giving it a 24-hr cold ferment, balled, and then proofing, stretching, and proofing warm.  I think I prefer the cold-fermented crust a little over the other, it's a bit more tender, but unless they were tasted side-by-side I don't think I would notice.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1136 on: January 10, 2013, 06:02:17 PM »
I've never had a real DS pizza so can't directly compare with what I'm making, unfortunately.  We have relatives in Chicago, might have to tag along next time my wife makes a trip up there and take a side trip to Detroit just for sampling.

I've made a LOT of DS pizza in the last couple of months (at least four 4-slice pans a week, sometimes six) and have found two ways that work well for me with the dough - either dropping it into the pans after a short bulk rise (no balling) and then allowing it to spread and proof inside the pan for a couple hours at room temp, giving it a final stretch, then proofing in a warm oven before dressing (this is what I would do if I was making it commercially, think it's close to what Buddy's is doing from the pictures and what I've read), or giving it a 24-hr cold ferment, balled, and then proofing, stretching, and proofing warm.  I think I prefer the cold-fermented crust a little over the other, it's a bit more tender, but unless they were tasted side-by-side I don't think I would notice.
Thanks Skee, your same day technique sounds very familiar.... ;)
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1137 on: January 10, 2013, 06:51:33 PM »
I'm using KASL with 70% hydration and 2% IDY with a quick mix with a paddle, five minute rest, then 2-3 minutes on speed 1 (in a Kitchen Aide).  The dough is sticky and rough at this point.  I just leave it in the bowl as-is and give it an hour at room temp followed by a couple of gentle kneads, weighing (350g for an 8x10), and balling.  The dough is now silky smooth and can form a tight ball.  After 24 hours of cold-proofing, I stretch the cold dough out to just fit the pan and let it warm to room temp, stretch a little more if it needs it, and then proof in a 100F oven for about an hour.  Baked at 475F for 16-18 minutes depending on toppings.  Here are some pics of the latest results:

 

Skee,

Your Detroit style pizza looks very tasty.  :) 

What kind of cheese or cheeses are you using?  I also would like to know how you decided to use 350 grams of dough for a 4-square.

Norma 
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Offline Skee

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1138 on: January 11, 2013, 11:17:19 AM »
Norma,

Thanks for the compliment!

I'm using Boar's Head NY White Cheddar for the edges, 2oz per pan (shredded), and a 60:40 mix of whole milk:part skim mozzarella (both Boar's Head brand), 4 oz per pan (shredded), plus 1oz of the cheddar for the rest of the pan, for a total of 7oz cheese per 8x10.  

The 350g per pan comes from taster's preference.  I started with that amount because that's the weight I use for a 16" NY and everyone liked it.  I tried backing down to 320g with the same sauce and cheese load and most people preferred the 350g going head-to-head with the 320.  So I've settled on 350g.

Cheers,
Britt
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 11:22:48 AM by Skee »

Offline Skee

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1139 on: January 11, 2013, 02:59:58 PM »
Norma,

What's the latest on the brick cheeses you've been sampling?  Can you narrow it down to perhaps two choices, one sharp and one mild?  I do have access to a commercial account and I would like to purchase some brick, but don't want to get anything except the best!

Thanks,
Britt

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1140 on: January 11, 2013, 05:51:54 PM »
Norma,

Thanks for the compliment!

I'm using Boar's Head NY White Cheddar for the edges, 2oz per pan (shredded), and a 60:40 mix of whole milk:part skim mozzarella (both Boar's Head brand), 4 oz per pan (shredded), plus 1oz of the cheddar for the rest of the pan, for a total of 7oz cheese per 8x10.  

The 350g per pan comes from taster's preference.  I started with that amount because that's the weight I use for a 16" NY and everyone liked it.  I tried backing down to 320g with the same sauce and cheese load and most people preferred the 350g going head-to-head with the 320.  So I've settled on 350g.

Cheers,
Britt

Thanks!  :)


Norma,

What's the latest on the brick cheeses you've been sampling?  Can you narrow it down to perhaps two choices, one sharp and one mild?  I do have access to a commercial account and I would like to purchase some brick, but don't want to get anything except the best!

Thanks,
Britt

Britt,

Most of the mild brick cheeses I had tried on Buddyís clones taste about the same.  I didnít try any of the aged brick yet, but I have one aged brick from Jeff and one from Joe Widmer.

I purchased my Eddieís brick cheese from Mandi Cheese Shop, http://www.mandifoods.com/shop/search.aspx and thought the Eddieís brick cheese was very good.  After a little investigating it was found out that Great Lakes produces the Eddieís brick cheese.  I could purchase the Eddieís brick cheese through a foodservice business in Scranton, Pa., but that is too far for me to travel.  Maybe if you are interested in the Great Lakes Eddieís brick cheese you could call Great Lakes.

I donít know what area you are in.  I guess if you are near Michigan then you might be able to purchase some of the brick cheese like they are using in the different Detroit style pizza businesses.

Norma
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Offline hockman4357

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1141 on: January 11, 2013, 06:03:01 PM »
I'm using KASL with 70% hydration and 2% IDY with a quick mix with a paddle, five minute rest, then 2-3 minutes on speed 1 (in a Kitchen Aide).  The dough is sticky and rough at this point.  I just leave it in the bowl as-is and give it an hour at room temp followed by a couple of gentle kneads, weighing (350g for an 8x10), and balling.  The dough is now silky smooth and can form a tight ball.  After 24 hours of cold-proofing, I stretch the cold dough out to just fit the pan and let it warm to room temp, stretch a little more if it needs it, and then proof in a 100F oven for about an hour.  Baked at 475F for 16-18 minutes depending on toppings.  Here are some pics of the latest results:

 
How are you preparing your pan prior to putting the dough in?  Are you using oil on the bottom and Crisco shortening on the sides?  What kind of oil and/or Crisco shortening?  How much oil and/or shortening?  I'm making one of these babies tonight!


Offline Skee

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1142 on: January 12, 2013, 03:33:20 PM »
I'm oiling the pans with about a half-dollar-sized puddle of peanut oil in the middle of the pan and then spreading a thin coat over the bottom and sides with a pastry brush.  No crisco.  But to get to this level of tempering I had to cook many pizzas - until you're sure your pans are nice and coated, swipe a little Crisco in the corners and use a little extra oil on the bottom. 

Offline gschwim

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1143 on: January 12, 2013, 11:11:12 PM »
Peter,

I understand that you live in Texas?  Have you tried Via 313, yet?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFthReFgxxA#ws[/youtube]

Two brothers from Detroit, making "authentic Detroit style pizza."  Your chance to watch DS pizza being made, taste the results(!) and report back to the rest of us anything you learned.

Gene
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 04:25:29 PM by Steve »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1144 on: January 12, 2013, 11:41:01 PM »
I just don't see Via 313 pizza looking near as good as the examples presented here on this thread, sorry. :-\
Also having a hard time imagining those strips of raw bacon cooked below the cheese as being very enjoyable, especially textural wise.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1145 on: January 13, 2013, 12:00:58 AM »
Peter,

I understand that you live in Texas?  Have you tried Via 313, yet? ().

Gene,

No, I have not. I live in north Texas, outside of Dallas. Via 313 is in central Texas, in Austin. However, as part of my research on the Detroit style pizza, I learned a fair amount about Via 313. See, for example, the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16820.0.html.

Peter

Offline gschwim

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1146 on: January 13, 2013, 01:45:01 AM »
Gene,

No, I have not. I live in north Texas, outside of Dallas. Via 313 is in central Texas, in Austin. However, as part of my research on the Detroit style pizza, I learned a fair amount about Via 313. See, for example, the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16820.0.html.

Peter

Yes, but Texas is such a small state, should only be a few minutes' drive...  :^)

Gene

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1147 on: January 13, 2013, 08:25:00 AM »
Yes, but Texas is such a small state, should only be a few minutes' drive...  :^)
Gene,

People don't really realize how big Texas is. From North to South, from Texhoma, OK to Brownsville, TX, is 890 miles border to border, or almost 14 hours drive time; from East to West from Texarkana to El Paso, border to border, is 813 miles, or almost 12 hours drive time. George Jones, the famous country and western singer, once sang a song called You Can't Get the Hell Out of Texas (). And if you remember in the movie Thelma and Louise and they were trying to get from Oklahoma City to Mexico, Louise insisted that they do it without going through Texas. To wit:

LOUISE:
....Here, take this map.  I need you to find
all the secondary roads to Mexico from Oklahoma City. 
I think we should stay off the interstates.  We're
too conspicuous.

THELMA:
Well, it looks like we can get on this road 81 here
and head down towards Dallas.

LOUISE:
No, I don't want to go through Texas.  Find some way
that we don't have to go through there.

THELMA:
Wait.  What?  You want to go to Mexico, from
Oklahoma, but you don't want to go through Texas?

LOUISE:
Thelma, you know how I feel about Texas!  We're not
going that way!

THELMA:
Yeah, I know, Louise, but we're running for our
lives.  I mean, can't you make an exception?!  I
mean, look at this map.  The only thing between
Oklahoma and Mexico is Texas.  Look.

LOUISE:
Thelma!  I'm not gonna talk about this!  Now you
either find another way or give me the goddamn map
and I will!  You understand?


Now, with respect to Via 313, three of Texas's finest, Craig, Tom (Tscarborough) and Gene (Jet_deck), have all had the Via 313 Detroit style pizzas, and have spoken highly of the pizzas so I know they are good. In fact, when Tom was building a WFO for Gene, one of the Hunt brothers, Zane, made some pizzas for the occasion, as can be seen in Reply 533 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20117.msg220224.html#msg220224.

Peter 

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1148 on: January 13, 2013, 09:40:06 AM »
To put it another way, when I'm in El Paso, TX, I can go West on I10 and drive across three states to get to Los Angeles, or I can go East on I10 and drive to my house in Houston. The drive to LA is 50 miles shorter.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 01:16:53 PM by TXCraig1 »
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Offline Ev

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1149 on: January 13, 2013, 10:24:18 AM »

i think you may be directionally dyslexic.


 

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