Author Topic: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 152041 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1140 on: January 11, 2013, 05:51:54 PM »
Norma,

Thanks for the compliment!

I'm using Boar's Head NY White Cheddar for the edges, 2oz per pan (shredded), and a 60:40 mix of whole milk:part skim mozzarella (both Boar's Head brand), 4 oz per pan (shredded), plus 1oz of the cheddar for the rest of the pan, for a total of 7oz cheese per 8x10.  

The 350g per pan comes from taster's preference.  I started with that amount because that's the weight I use for a 16" NY and everyone liked it.  I tried backing down to 320g with the same sauce and cheese load and most people preferred the 350g going head-to-head with the 320.  So I've settled on 350g.

Cheers,
Britt

Thanks!  :)


Norma,

What's the latest on the brick cheeses you've been sampling?  Can you narrow it down to perhaps two choices, one sharp and one mild?  I do have access to a commercial account and I would like to purchase some brick, but don't want to get anything except the best!

Thanks,
Britt

Britt,

Most of the mild brick cheeses I had tried on Buddy’s clones taste about the same.  I didn’t try any of the aged brick yet, but I have one aged brick from Jeff and one from Joe Widmer.

I purchased my Eddie’s brick cheese from Mandi Cheese Shop, http://www.mandifoods.com/shop/search.aspx and thought the Eddie’s brick cheese was very good.  After a little investigating it was found out that Great Lakes produces the Eddie’s brick cheese.  I could purchase the Eddie’s brick cheese through a foodservice business in Scranton, Pa., but that is too far for me to travel.  Maybe if you are interested in the Great Lakes Eddie’s brick cheese you could call Great Lakes.

I don’t know what area you are in.  I guess if you are near Michigan then you might be able to purchase some of the brick cheese like they are using in the different Detroit style pizza businesses.

Norma
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Offline hockman4357

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1141 on: January 11, 2013, 06:03:01 PM »
I'm using KASL with 70% hydration and 2% IDY with a quick mix with a paddle, five minute rest, then 2-3 minutes on speed 1 (in a Kitchen Aide).  The dough is sticky and rough at this point.  I just leave it in the bowl as-is and give it an hour at room temp followed by a couple of gentle kneads, weighing (350g for an 8x10), and balling.  The dough is now silky smooth and can form a tight ball.  After 24 hours of cold-proofing, I stretch the cold dough out to just fit the pan and let it warm to room temp, stretch a little more if it needs it, and then proof in a 100F oven for about an hour.  Baked at 475F for 16-18 minutes depending on toppings.  Here are some pics of the latest results:

 
How are you preparing your pan prior to putting the dough in?  Are you using oil on the bottom and Crisco shortening on the sides?  What kind of oil and/or Crisco shortening?  How much oil and/or shortening?  I'm making one of these babies tonight!

Offline Skee

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1142 on: January 12, 2013, 03:33:20 PM »
I'm oiling the pans with about a half-dollar-sized puddle of peanut oil in the middle of the pan and then spreading a thin coat over the bottom and sides with a pastry brush.  No crisco.  But to get to this level of tempering I had to cook many pizzas - until you're sure your pans are nice and coated, swipe a little Crisco in the corners and use a little extra oil on the bottom. 

Offline gschwim

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1143 on: January 12, 2013, 11:11:12 PM »
Peter,

I understand that you live in Texas?  Have you tried Via 313, yet?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFthReFgxxA#ws[/youtube]

Two brothers from Detroit, making "authentic Detroit style pizza."  Your chance to watch DS pizza being made, taste the results(!) and report back to the rest of us anything you learned.

Gene
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 04:25:29 PM by Steve »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1144 on: January 12, 2013, 11:41:01 PM »
I just don't see Via 313 pizza looking near as good as the examples presented here on this thread, sorry. :-\
Also having a hard time imagining those strips of raw bacon cooked below the cheese as being very enjoyable, especially textural wise.
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1145 on: January 13, 2013, 12:00:58 AM »
Peter,

I understand that you live in Texas?  Have you tried Via 313, yet? ().

Gene,

No, I have not. I live in north Texas, outside of Dallas. Via 313 is in central Texas, in Austin. However, as part of my research on the Detroit style pizza, I learned a fair amount about Via 313. See, for example, the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16820.0.html.

Peter

Offline gschwim

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1146 on: January 13, 2013, 01:45:01 AM »
Gene,

No, I have not. I live in north Texas, outside of Dallas. Via 313 is in central Texas, in Austin. However, as part of my research on the Detroit style pizza, I learned a fair amount about Via 313. See, for example, the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16820.0.html.

Peter

Yes, but Texas is such a small state, should only be a few minutes' drive...  :^)

Gene

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1147 on: January 13, 2013, 08:25:00 AM »
Yes, but Texas is such a small state, should only be a few minutes' drive...  :^)
Gene,

People don't really realize how big Texas is. From North to South, from Texhoma, OK to Brownsville, TX, is 890 miles border to border, or almost 14 hours drive time; from East to West from Texarkana to El Paso, border to border, is 813 miles, or almost 12 hours drive time. George Jones, the famous country and western singer, once sang a song called You Can't Get the Hell Out of Texas (). And if you remember in the movie Thelma and Louise and they were trying to get from Oklahoma City to Mexico, Louise insisted that they do it without going through Texas. To wit:

LOUISE:
....Here, take this map.  I need you to find
all the secondary roads to Mexico from Oklahoma City. 
I think we should stay off the interstates.  We're
too conspicuous.

THELMA:
Well, it looks like we can get on this road 81 here
and head down towards Dallas.

LOUISE:
No, I don't want to go through Texas.  Find some way
that we don't have to go through there.

THELMA:
Wait.  What?  You want to go to Mexico, from
Oklahoma, but you don't want to go through Texas?

LOUISE:
Thelma, you know how I feel about Texas!  We're not
going that way!

THELMA:
Yeah, I know, Louise, but we're running for our
lives.  I mean, can't you make an exception?!  I
mean, look at this map.  The only thing between
Oklahoma and Mexico is Texas.  Look.

LOUISE:
Thelma!  I'm not gonna talk about this!  Now you
either find another way or give me the goddamn map
and I will!  You understand?


Now, with respect to Via 313, three of Texas's finest, Craig, Tom (Tscarborough) and Gene (Jet_deck), have all had the Via 313 Detroit style pizzas, and have spoken highly of the pizzas so I know they are good. In fact, when Tom was building a WFO for Gene, one of the Hunt brothers, Zane, made some pizzas for the occasion, as can be seen in Reply 533 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20117.msg220224.html#msg220224.

Peter 

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1148 on: January 13, 2013, 09:40:06 AM »
To put it another way, when I'm in El Paso, TX, I can go West on I10 and drive across three states to get to Los Angeles, or I can go East on I10 and drive to my house in Houston. The drive to LA is 50 miles shorter.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 01:16:53 PM by TXCraig1 »
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Ev

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1149 on: January 13, 2013, 10:24:18 AM »

i think you may be directionally dyslexic.


Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1150 on: January 13, 2013, 12:19:44 PM »
Gene,

In my opinion there is enough information between the Buddy’s thread, the Via 313 thread, Craig’s Detroit style pizza thread and this thread to be able to make a credible Buddy’s clone pizza.  It might not be exactly like the Buddy’s pizza of “olden days”, but I would think it might be pretty close.  With Thelma (Peter) at the helm I don’t think Louise (or anyone else) could go wrong on any of this threads.  I think Thelma (Peter), PizzaHog and other members have found out about all the information that can be found without more insider information. 

The only way you will know if any of these are like Buddy’s pizzas of years ago is to start trying some of the formulations to see what you think.  Since you did eat Buddy’s pizzas years ago, you should know what they are supposed to taste like, the texture of the crumb and so forth.  As PizzaHog has stated in the Buddy’s thread different times, he thinks mild white cheddar might make the Buddy’s clones taste like the Buddy’s pizzas of years ago.  This is just one of PizzaHog’s comments on the Buddy’s thread about trying mild white cheddar at Reply 280 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg119825.html#msg119825 because PizzaHog doesn’t think the brick cheese Buddy’s uses now has the same taste as years ago. 

Norma
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1151 on: January 13, 2013, 01:17:22 PM »
i think you may be directionally dyslexic.

I think you're right.  :-D Thanks.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1152 on: January 13, 2013, 01:28:49 PM »
I just don't see Via 313 pizza looking near as good as the examples presented here on this thread, sorry. :-\
Also having a hard time imagining those strips of raw bacon cooked below the cheese as being very enjoyable, especially textural wise.

VIA 313 is very very good, and the use of whole strips of raw bacon cooked in the cheese is genus. The pie I made that way with the jalapeños on top was one of the finest pies I've ever made.

CL
Pizza is not bread.

Offline gschwim

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1153 on: January 13, 2013, 04:21:53 PM »
Gene,

In my opinion there is enough information between the Buddy’s thread, the Via 313 thread, Craig’s Detroit style pizza thread and this thread to be able to make a credible Buddy’s clone pizza.  It might not be exactly like the Buddy’s pizza of “olden days”, but I would think it might be pretty close.  With Thelma (Peter) at the helm I don’t think Louise (or anyone else) could go wrong on any of this threads.  I think Thelma (Peter), PizzaHog and other members have found out about all the information that can be found without more insider information. 

The only way you will know if any of these are like Buddy’s pizzas of years ago is to start trying some of the formulations to see what you think.  Since you did eat Buddy’s pizzas years ago, you should know what they are supposed to taste like, the texture of the crumb and so forth.  As PizzaHog has stated in the Buddy’s thread different times, he thinks mild white cheddar might make the Buddy’s clones taste like the Buddy’s pizzas of years ago.  This is just one of PizzaHog’s comments on the Buddy’s thread about trying mild white cheddar at Reply 280 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg119825.html#msg119825 because PizzaHog doesn’t think the brick cheese Buddy’s uses now has the same taste as years ago. 

Norma

I'm actually happy with my own pizzas, but always eager to read, and learn, more.  Always interested in hearing what other people are doing, what places they've visited, etc.  I think I like reading about Detroit pizza almost as much as eating it!

Gene

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1154 on: January 13, 2013, 06:53:19 PM »
I'm actually happy with my own pizzas, but always eager to read, and learn, more.  I think I like reading about Detroit pizza almost as much as eating it!

Gene


Gene,

What formulation are using now for your Detroit style pizzas and what kind of cheese, or cheeses are you using? 

Norma
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Offline gschwim

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1155 on: January 13, 2013, 10:14:51 PM »
Gene,

What formulation are using now for your Detroit style pizzas and what kind of cheese, or cheeses are you using? 

Norma

I used the dough formula and recipe I described at Reply 1078 on this post (http://goo.gl/wNGhk) - the formula described in Jim Lahey's book, My Pizza, but with the modifications of using Italian 00 flour and mixing for 30-60 seconds in my Kitchenaid at the lowest speed because when I've tried mixing by hand, I had trouble incorporating all the flour.

My primary goal was to get the crust and basic characteristics right, so now I'm experimenting.  One of the "perks" of being a commercial real estate broker with a specialty in retail is that I have food customers, who do pizza, and I can get a few pounds of All Trumps pretty much anytime, just by asking, so I want to try All Trumps as well as all purpose and bread flour (Better for Bread from the supermarket) and see if I notice a difference and if I do, which one I like best.  I do really like the 00, but as I mentioned, a couple of partners and I are thinking of opening a cafe and 00 costs at least twice as much as the alternatives, so I want to see if one of those would work as well.

I'm trying to go one variable at a time, so next would be cheese.  At the moment, I'm using Trader Joe's pre-shredded mozzarella for the middle, and TJ's Extra-Sharp Wisconsin Cheddar for the edge.  If you have an opinion on the alternatives among mild, sharp and extra-sharp, I'd like to hear it.  Anyway, I'll probably try different brands to see if I favor any.  And for the middle, I can try provolone or a mozzarella-provolone combo.  And I certainly plan to try the "good stuff," the cow's milk (as opposed to water buffalo milk) version of the fresh mozzarella used on Neopolitan pizzas.  I'm really eager to try the brick cheese everyone is talking about.  Anyone know if I can order it for delivery?

For sauce, so far, I used a can of crushed tomatoes, probably Hunt's, with a little added oregano and sugar.  But I really like 6-in-1, straight out of the can, so that's what I'm going to try next and, I suspect, I'll stick with it.

Oh, and I greased the pan with butter-flavored Crisco, after trying olive oil, which did not prevent the cheddar from sticking to the side of the pan.

I'm also experimenting with temperature and baking time.  The reason I asked you about your oven is because there are some locations here in NYC that are good in terms of traffic, convenience, etc., but where the landlord won't allow cooking or it's not physically possible.  I happen to have one customer, Gina La Fornarina, a mini-chain of three Italian restaurants (http://www.ginany.com).  As you can see, they have a pretty varied menu (http://goo.gl/qPhgS) and the pizzas look good (http://goo.gl/5l6AC), like an artisan Neopolitan pizza.  But they're baked in a small convection oven, about like this: http://goo.gl/lRIkz

Trust me, in NYC, being able to get by with a small convection rather than a large commercial Bakers-Pride type deck oven saves a lot of money and also greatly expands the universe of potential locations, so I am very interested in being able to bake Detroit style pizzas in a small convection oven.  My impression is that you have a relatively small pizza stand in a flea market or something similar, so though I'm reasonably sure from my home oven results that a small convection oven would work for me, I was hoping that you would be using such an oven and could tell me what temperature and time you were using.  But I'm sure I'll figure it out.

Gene

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1156 on: January 14, 2013, 08:58:51 AM »
I used the dough formula and recipe I described at Reply 1078 on this post (http://goo.gl/wNGhk) - the formula described in Jim Lahey's book, My Pizza, but with the modifications of using Italian 00 flour and mixing for 30-60 seconds in my Kitchenaid at the lowest speed because when I've tried mixing by hand, I had trouble incorporating all the flour.

My primary goal was to get the crust and basic characteristics right, so now I'm experimenting.  One of the "perks" of being a commercial real estate broker with a specialty in retail is that I have food customers, who do pizza, and I can get a few pounds of All Trumps pretty much anytime, just by asking, so I want to try All Trumps as well as all purpose and bread flour (Better for Bread from the supermarket) and see if I notice a difference and if I do, which one I like best.  I do really like the 00, but as I mentioned, a couple of partners and I are thinking of opening a cafe and 00 costs at least twice as much as the alternatives, so I want to see if one of those would work as well.

I'm trying to go one variable at a time, so next would be cheese.  At the moment, I'm using Trader Joe's pre-shredded mozzarella for the middle, and TJ's Extra-Sharp Wisconsin Cheddar for the edge.  If you have an opinion on the alternatives among mild, sharp and extra-sharp, I'd like to hear it.  Anyway, I'll probably try different brands to see if I favor any.  And for the middle, I can try provolone or a mozzarella-provolone combo.  And I certainly plan to try the "good stuff," the cow's milk (as opposed to water buffalo milk) version of the fresh mozzarella used on Neopolitan pizzas.  I'm really eager to try the brick cheese everyone is talking about.  Anyone know if I can order it for delivery?

For sauce, so far, I used a can of crushed tomatoes, probably Hunt's, with a little added oregano and sugar.  But I really like 6-in-1, straight out of the can, so that's what I'm going to try next and, I suspect, I'll stick with it.

Oh, and I greased the pan with butter-flavored Crisco, after trying olive oil, which did not prevent the cheddar from sticking to the side of the pan.

I'm also experimenting with temperature and baking time.  The reason I asked you about your oven is because there are some locations here in NYC that are good in terms of traffic, convenience, etc., but where the landlord won't allow cooking or it's not physically possible.  I happen to have one customer, Gina La Fornarina, a mini-chain of three Italian restaurants (http://www.ginany.com).  As you can see, they have a pretty varied menu (http://goo.gl/qPhgS) and the pizzas look good (http://goo.gl/5l6AC), like an artisan Neopolitan pizza.  But they're baked in a small convection oven, about like this: http://goo.gl/lRIkz

Trust me, in NYC, being able to get by with a small convection rather than a large commercial Bakers-Pride type deck oven saves a lot of money and also greatly expands the universe of potential locations, so I am very interested in being able to bake Detroit style pizzas in a small convection oven.  My impression is that you have a relatively small pizza stand in a flea market or something similar, so though I'm reasonably sure from my home oven results that a small convection oven would work for me, I was hoping that you would be using such an oven and could tell me what temperature and time you were using.  But I'm sure I'll figure it out.

Gene




Gene,

I now recall what dough formula and recipe you used and described.  Sorry for forgetting about it.   :-[

I did use Kyrol flour earlier in this thread for my attempts and it is something like All Trumps flour.  I only switched to the Occident bromated flour after we found out what protein flour Buddy’s is using.  

I did take a video of my small pizza stand and if you are interested it is at Reply 529 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg104786.html#msg104786  I do have a small Cadco convection oven there, but never tried it to make Detroit style pizzas.  The Buddy’s clones I have made at home in my oven turned out good, so I don’t know why a convection oven couldn’t work, either with the convection feature or not.  I can understand it would be a lot easier for you not to use a large oven like a Baker’s Pride.

At Reply 717 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg227392.html#msg227392 are pictures of the three cheeses I am using regularly when I am not trying out brick cheeses on my Buddy’s clone pizzas.  In my opinion the AMPI mild white cheddar (third picture down) is a very good mild white cheddar.

I think I did post that I liked the Eddie’s brick cheese at the Mandi Cheese Shop http://www.mandifoods.com/shop/  I did post a picture of the 6 lb. loaf somewhere on this thread but I can’t find where I posted it with the search feature here on the forum.  If you type in brick cheese in the search box at the Mandi’s Cheese Shop it should come up if you want to try it.  That is the same brick cheese they use on different pizzas in the Scranton area of Pa. Those kind of pizzas are Sicilian pizzas, but different than Detroit style.

The steel pans do need to be seasoned enough so they don’t stick.  

I am not good at posting to long replies with quoted material as you might have seen in the one post I made to Peter because the screen keeps jumping on me when trying to do that, so this is just a general post to what you posted.

Norma
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 09:00:29 AM by norma427 »
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1157 on: January 14, 2013, 09:46:47 AM »
Gene,

When you start your own experiments I think it would be a very good idea to start a new thread. Not everyone is trying to emulate the Buddy's particular version of the Detroit style pizza, and not everyone has the same ingredients as used by Buddy's. And people are always looking out for new and different things. The reason why Norma and I tried to reverse engineer and clone the Buddy's dough is because people asked for it, starting with the Buddy's thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.0.html, which you started over six years ago. Of course, in Norma's case, she also wanted to try to make a credible version of the Detroit style pizza for sale at market.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1158 on: January 14, 2013, 10:01:39 AM »
I think I did post that I liked the Eddie’s brick cheese at the Mandi Cheese Shop http://www.mandifoods.com/shop/  I did post a picture of the 6 lb. loaf somewhere on this thread but I can’t find where I posted it with the search feature here on the forum.
Norma,

I think the photos you are looking for are the ones in Reply 92 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg220599.html#msg220599. As I have mentioned before on a few occasions, the forum's search engine has problems searching for words with an apostrophe s. When I tried searching Eddie's brick cheese this morning, I got zero hits. When I searched using Eddie brick cheese (without the apostrophe s), I got all of the posts with those terms. In my case, I limited the search to just this thread. The forum's search engine also has problems searching for acronyms, and words with hyphens. Knowing what the search engine cannot do is almost getting to be as important as what it can do.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1159 on: January 14, 2013, 10:42:19 AM »
Norma,

I think the photos you are looking for are the ones in Reply 92 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg220599.html#msg220599. As I have mentioned before on a few occasions, the forum's search engine has problems searching for words with an apostrophe s. When I tried searching Eddie's brick cheese this morning, I got zero hits. When I searched using Eddie brick cheese (without the apostrophe s), I got all of the posts with those terms. In my case, I limited the search to just this thread. The forum's search engine also has problems searching for acronyms, and words with hyphens. Knowing what the search engine cannot do is almost getting to be as important as what it can do.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for finding the link to the photos of the Eddie’s brick cheese.  I didn’t use apostrophe s when I used the search words Eddie brick cheese under this thread (because I did recall you posted the forum‘s search engine has problems searching for words with an aspostrophe s ), but saw there were two pages of posts on the words Eddie brick cheese.  When I saw two pages of posts and I was too lazy to look at all of them to see where the photos were.  That is why I just posted the link to the Mandi Cheese Shop.

Norma
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