Author Topic: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 243517 times)

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Offline gschwim

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1225 on: January 17, 2013, 12:38:46 PM »
I have been thinking of my moldy Eddie’s brick cheese in the fridge and couldn’t decide whether to throw it away, or try to cut the mold off.  I hate to waste things, so I decided a little while ago to cut the mold off and wash it under running water.  I had stored the Eddie’s brick cheese in the plastic wrap in came in and aluminum foil and usually my cheeses don’t get moldy, but Eddie’s brick cheese did.  After cutting the mold off the Eddie’s brick cheese and running it under running water and then drying it with clean paper towels it looks okay to me.  It also weighs about the right amount to try on a Buddy’s clone pizza.  I am going to pick up my one 4-square steel pan this afternoon and make a Buddy’s clone dough with no salt later today.

I really don’t think it matters if I use Eddie’s brick cheese now.

Norma 

Norma,

If you cut away the moldy parts, the rest should be okay.  Plus, you know, les Francais, zey pay les big bucks for ze moldy cheese... - so you might accidentally have discovered a new delicacy.


Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1226 on: January 17, 2013, 05:17:44 PM »
Norma,

If you cut away the moldy parts, the rest should be okay.  Plus, you know, les Francais, zey pay les big bucks for ze moldy cheese... - so you might accidentally have discovered a new delicacy.

Gene,

Lol, I know there is big bucks for moldy cheeses.  I have cut mold away before on some cheeses and ate them and nothing happened, at least not to me. 

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1227 on: January 17, 2013, 07:04:38 PM »
I mixed a Buddy’s clone dough without salt and use the same formulation as I did when I made one dough ball without salt with 0.80% IDY  I then scaled the dough ball down to 9.5 ounces.  The dough was first mixed with the flat beater on different speeds up to speed 3, then was mixed with the dough hook on speeds up to speed 8 and finally was mixed with the flat beater on speed 3 again.  When trying to mix such a small amount of dough I think the flat beater does a good enough job in the first place, but I wanted to make sure the dough was mixed enough.  I really don’t know, maybe the dough wasn’t mixed enough, but at least I tried.  It is hard for me to tell how much strength there is in such a small dough.  The final dough temperature was 74.8 degrees F.  The dough ball was oiled with olive oil and placed into the greased steel pan and a processing cap was put on the steel pan.  The Buddy’s clone dough ball was placed into the bottom of my fridge at 6:30 PM.

Norma

Offline Skee

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1228 on: January 18, 2013, 09:30:46 AM »
I'm very interested in your results, Norma.  I found that if I cold-fermented the dough in the pan that it would absorb the oil and then stick like glue to the bottom of the pan.  Haven't tried it again, but my pans are thoroughly seasoned now so it might not be a problem.  Would certainly make prepping the dough easier if it could be done this way.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1229 on: January 18, 2013, 09:33:09 AM »
It was good you decided to call the Buddy’s Bloomfield location and the Point Plaza Buddy’s location for more information about how the slices that are sold.  I can understand that information gave you pause to wonder what kind of slices dicepackage ordered and showed.  I can see if dicepackage got 4 slices from the 8-square pizza that was cut into six pieces that would change the numbers that you have previously used for calculation purposes.  I think you have a lot of work cut-out for you if decide to revisit his numbers to see whether is possible to determine what an 8-square cheese and pepperoni pizza weighs and then work backwards to see if it is possible to get individual ingredient weights.  Good luck with figuring all of that out if you can.  I can see that will be a tall order to accomplish.
Norma,

Actually, it took me only a few minutes to conclude that dicepackage did not get slices from an 8-square cut into six pieces. Even after assuming a fairly high loss during baking, and knowing how much cheese is used on an 8-square, and estimating weights for the sauce and pepperoni, the number that I calculated for the amount of dough was far too small for an 8-square pizza. I think dicepackage got his slices from a 4-square pizza. While it is possible that servers in a Buddy's sit-down restaurant may cut slices in sizes as requested by diners, I think that the 6-slice case is pretty much limited to carryout-only locations.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1230 on: January 18, 2013, 09:53:13 AM »
I'm very interested in your results, Norma.  I found that if I cold-fermented the dough in the pan that it would absorb the oil and then stick like glue to the bottom of the pan.  Haven't tried it again, but my pans are thoroughly seasoned now so it might not be a problem.  Would certainly make prepping the dough easier if it could be done this way.

Britt,

I also found out at market in the last two weeks if the dough is cold fermented the dough does stick to the steel pans.  I don’t really know if the dough absorbs the MFB I am trying, but the MFB shortening is solid and it stays that way until the tempering period and then really doesn’t spread like the Canola oil does.  I think from what I have found out in the last two weeks, it is easier to spread the dough in the steel pans when it is still cold and the dough doesn’t slide around at all.  I agree that prepping the dough is easier if the dough is cold fermented.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1231 on: January 18, 2013, 10:11:15 AM »
Norma,

Actually, it took me only a few minutes to conclude that dicepackage did not get slices from an 8-square cut into six pieces. Even after assuming a fairly high loss during baking, and knowing how much cheese is used on an 8-square, and estimating weights for the sauce and pepperoni, the number that I calculated for the amount of dough was far too small for an 8-square pizza. I think dicepackage got his slices from a 4-square pizza. While it is possible that servers in a Buddy's sit-down restaurant may cut slices in sizes as requested by diners, I think that the 6-slice case is pretty much limited to carryout-only locations.

Peter


Peter,

I really couldn’t tell from dicepackage’s Reply at 127 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81715.html#msg81715  whether those slices were from a 4-square or an 8-square Buddy’s pizza.  dicepackage posted therefore a four slice pepperoni pizza after cooking should with 580 g.  That confused me because I didn’t know if dicepackage knew what size pizza the slices were from.  I didn’t see caramelized edges on the one slice if they were from a 4-square Buddy’s pizza, unless the melted cheese was hiding it.

I saw you asked dicepackage in the next post at 128 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81716.html#msg81716  about the 20 pepperoni slices and he said yes in the next post.

If you think dice package did not get slices from an 8-square cut into six pieces and after assuming a fairly high loss during baking, I can see why you think by your calculations that the amount of dough was too small for an 8-square pizza.  I think this is all confusing.  I don’t even know how much bake loss a pizza would have in a conveyor oven or if it might be more weight loss in a final pizza than a deck oven.  

Norma
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 10:13:30 AM by norma427 »

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1232 on: January 18, 2013, 10:16:25 AM »
This is what the Buddy’s clone dough ball without salt looks like this morning after 9:30 AM.  I checked on the dough ball before I went to sleep and it had looked plump and now has flattened until this morning when I checked on it.  There is condensation on the processing cap.

I will try to bake this Buddy’s clone dough ball without salt, either late this afternoon or this evening.  I don’t know if anyone wants me take the weight of the final baked pizza, how I bake the pizza or how long it might take to bake, but it will be a pepperoni and cheese 4-square pizza.

On another note I also had been emailing Keith that sent me the samples of the Margherita Coarse Sliced Pepperoni and Keith said that he will come over to market soon.  Keith said Sysco in Harrisburg and Ettline in York carry the Margherita Coarse Sliced Pepperoni.  Keith said he manages Ettline’s.  I know when I went to Sysco a long while ago they didn’t give me what I had asked for and I didn‘t realize that until I returned home.  Ettline’s is closer to me I think and if the Margherita Coarse Sliced Pepperoni is reasonable enough in price I might purchase some.  I think Ettline’s does let anyone purchase from them, but I don’t know how much discount foodservice businesses get when purchasing their products, or if I need a minimum dollar order or not.  I was never to Ettline’s before.  I did email Keith again this morning to find out how much a case of the Margherita Coarse Slice Pepperoni is, but don’t know if he will be able to tell me the price for a case.

http://www.ettline.com/index.html

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1233 on: January 18, 2013, 10:20:29 AM »
This is for anyone that might be interested in purchasing something from ettline.

Will Call
Ettline is happy to offer products to the public as well as our customers.
All orders must be called and to pick up the same day, orders must be
called in 2 hours ahead.

http://www.ettline.com/html/willcall.html

Norma


Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1234 on: January 18, 2013, 11:08:58 AM »
I called Ettline will call because I was curious how much the Magherita Coarse Sliced Pepperoni would cost if I just purchase a case from cash and carry.  I talked to David and he said 25 lbs. of the Margherita Coarse Sliced Pepperoni would be 91.53.  David said if I decided to create an account then a salesman would be out to talk to me about pricing depending on how much I would purchase.  I think the Margherita Coarse Slice Pepperoni is going to be too much money for me to purchase.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1235 on: January 18, 2013, 07:46:51 PM »
Norma,

I thought that you might be interested in seeing this list of Wisconsin producers of brick cheese: http://www.savorwisconsin.com/AllListings/prodbusiness.asp?recordid=760&type=product. Foremost is on the list but Kraft's is not.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1236 on: January 18, 2013, 08:03:07 PM »
Norma,

I thought that you might be interested in seeing this list of Wisconsin producers of brick cheese: http://www.savorwisconsin.com/AllListings/prodbusiness.asp?recordid=760&type=product. Foremost is on the list but Kraft's is not.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for the list of the Wisconsin producers of brick cheese.  I am interested in the list.  Since Foremost Farms is on the list I am going to call them again.  I might also call some of the other producers of brick cheese.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1237 on: January 18, 2013, 08:06:41 PM »
The Buddy’s clone dough without salt pressed out easily in the steel pan right out of the fridge and didn’t slip at all in the steel pan.  The dough in the steel pan was tempered with my oven light on for 50 minutes.  It looked tempered enough in that amount of time. The dough in the steel pan sat on the table while the oven heated up for 45 minutes.  The Buddy’s clone pizza was dressed with 7.5 ounces of the Eddie’s brick cheese, 1.347 ounces of the coarse grind pepperoni and 4.6 ounces of sauce. 

The Buddy’s clone pizza baked in 12 minutes 42 seconds on the second to the bottom oven rack on the pizza stone.  The Buddy’s clone pizza right out of the oven weighed 595 grams.  The first picture of the pizza in the oven was taken at 6 minutes and the second picture of the pizza in the oven was taken at 10 minutes.

The formulation I used is in the first picture.

I thought the Buddy’s clone pizza without the salt in the dough was very good.  I also thought the Eddie’s brick cheese was very good, buttery and stretchy.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1238 on: January 18, 2013, 08:08:12 PM »
Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1239 on: January 18, 2013, 08:09:29 PM »
Norma

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1240 on: January 18, 2013, 08:11:09 PM »
Norma

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1241 on: January 18, 2013, 08:12:20 PM »
Norma


Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1242 on: January 18, 2013, 08:13:37 PM »
Norma

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1243 on: January 18, 2013, 08:14:42 PM »
Norma

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1244 on: January 18, 2013, 08:29:13 PM »
Norma,

You have become a real pro with this style. It doesn't matter whether you make the pizzas at home or at market. Very nice job.

I couldn't clearly tell from the photos but did the crust sink below the sauce?

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1245 on: January 18, 2013, 08:57:11 PM »
Norma,

You have become a real pro with this style. It doesn't matter whether you make the pizzas at home or at market. Very nice job.

I couldn't clearly tell from the photos but did the crust sink below the sauce?

Peter





Peter,

Thanks for the kind compliment. 

I have done enough experiments at home and market, so I should be getting somewhere wouldn’t you think.  :-D

The crust really didn’t sink below the sauce, but the crumb was softer.  I don’t know what the softer crumb was from.  I added extra sauce just to see if there would be sagging under the sauce.  I think it can be seen in the pictures too that after the pie started to cool down, there is something like a sinking from the edges of the caramelized crust down to the cheese.  I don’t know what causes that either, or if that is the way it is supposed to be.  I have looked at so many pictures of Buddy’s pizzas and all their different looks and now I am not sure how mine should really look.  The bottom crust on this pizza wasn’t as crispy as at market either.  It was crisp, but it wasn’t exactly the same.  Maybe I would have to change my rack position in my home oven for the bottom to get real crispy.  I thought the Eddie’s cheese had browned enough and saw the bottom was brown, so that is why I took it out of the oven when I did.  I would say though that I couldn’t notice there wasn’t any salt in the crust after 2 slices of the baked Buddy’s clone was eaten.

Do you think my dough without salt was mixed enough, or do you think I should have mixed longer?

Norma

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1246 on: January 18, 2013, 09:33:30 PM »
Norma,

I think your dough experiment without the salt but with fairly aggressive kneading and good gluten development was a good one because it shows that you can get a finished crust that can support sauce and toppings without sinking and without the need for the strengthening effects of salt. And if you can achieve this result using a basic home stand mixer, you should be able to achieve similar--and most likely even better--results using your Hobart mixer at market. As you know, we have become accustomed to thinking about and using short kneads and relying on biochemical gluten development to a considerable degree to do a good amount of the heavy lifting. The Buddy's dough may be one of those cases where a long, and fairly aggressive knead is the better way to go. In fact, with no salt and with a high hydration value, it may be obligatory.

In retrospect, I think using more sauce than normal was a good idea. I would not have suggested that because it would have meant a new experiment with the amount of sauce you would normally use in case the crust sank from the weight of the sauce. You dodged a bullet this time :-D.

As for the other differences in the finished crust, you may have to repeat your experiment at market with your deck oven to see if the omission of the salt was responsible for those differences.

It seems to me from your earlier discussion that you kneaded your dough long enough. However, I think the truer and more important test is with your Hobart mixer at market, where you are selling your pizzas.

A final benefit from your latest test is that it keeps the no-salt theory in play. Of course, that doesn't mean that you should forgo salt in your doughs.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1247 on: January 18, 2013, 09:44:28 PM »
MFP...Mighty Fine Pizza!  :)
Dang Norma, I jus don't see how it can possibly get any better than this... 8)
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1248 on: January 18, 2013, 10:11:30 PM »
Norma,

I think your dough experiment without the salt but with fairly aggressive kneading and good gluten development was a good one because it shows that you can get a finished crust that can support sauce and toppings without sinking and without the need for the strengthening effects of salt. And if you can achieve this result using a basic home stand mixer, you should be able to achieve similar--and most likely even better--results using your Hobart mixer at market. As you know, we have become accustomed to thinking about and using short kneads and relying on biochemical gluten development to a considerable degree to do a good amount of the heavy lifting. The Buddy's dough may be one of those cases where a long, and fairly aggressive knead is the better way to go. In fact, with no salt and with a high hydration value, it may be obligatory.

In retrospect, I think using more sauce than normal was a good idea. I would not have suggested that because it would have meant a new experiment with the amount of sauce you would normally use in case the crust sank from the weight of the sauce. You dodged a bullet this time :-D.

As for the other differences in the finished crust, you may have to repeat your experiment at market with your deck oven to see if the omission of the salt was responsible for those differences.

It seems to me from your earlier discussion that you kneaded your dough long enough. However, I think the truer and more important test is with your Hobart mixer at market, where you are selling your pizzas.

A final benefit from your latest test is that it keeps the no-salt theory in play. Of course, that doesn't mean that you should forgo salt in your doughs.

Peter

Peter,

I even wonder if the dough experiment with the aggressive kneading would even benefit this kind of dough.  I had mentioned in my other post that I thought the flat beater did a good job, with out all the other mixing.  When I was finished with mixing with the flat beater on different speeds from 1-3 (like at home with salt) the dough felt ready to be balled.  I then mixed with the dough hook on those high speeds and went back to the flat beater and the dough without salt sure didn’t feel any different to me, than just using the flat beater on 3 speeds.  I thought just ball the Buddy’s clone dough without salt and wait and see what happens.   

I know we have become accustomed to using fairly short kneads and relying on the biochemical development to do most of the heavy lifting for many doughs.  . 

I will mix a Buddy’s clone dough without salt in the Hobart mixer on Monday and hope for the best.  Hopefully things will work out okay.   

Norma

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1249 on: January 18, 2013, 10:14:23 PM »
MFP...Mighty Fine Pizza!  :)
Dang Norma, I jus don't see how it can possibly get any better than this... 8)

Bob,

Thanks!  :)  The Buddy's clone pizza was good without salt in the crust, but I still have nagging feelings if I am doing everything I should be doing.  There is a lot I don't understand about these Buddy's clone pizzas yet.

Norma


 

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