Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

You have become a real pro with this style. It doesn't matter whether you make the pizzas at home or at market. Very nice job.

I couldn't clearly tell from the photos but did the crust sink below the sauce?

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

You have become a real pro with this style. It doesn't matter whether you make the pizzas at home or at market. Very nice job.

I couldn't clearly tell from the photos but did the crust sink below the sauce?

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the kind compliment. 

I have done enough experiments at home and market, so I should be getting somewhere wouldn’t you think. 

The crust really didn’t sink below the sauce, but the crumb was softer.  I don’t know what the softer crumb was from.  I added extra sauce just to see if there would be sagging under the sauce.  I think it can be seen in the pictures too that after the pie started to cool down, there is something like a sinking from the edges of the caramelized crust down to the cheese.  I don’t know what causes that either, or if that is the way it is supposed to be.  I have looked at so many pictures of Buddy’s pizzas and all their different looks and now I am not sure how mine should really look.  The bottom crust on this pizza wasn’t as crispy as at market either.  It was crisp, but it wasn’t exactly the same.  Maybe I would have to change my rack position in my home oven for the bottom to get real crispy.  I thought the Eddie’s cheese had browned enough and saw the bottom was brown, so that is why I took it out of the oven when I did.  I would say though that I couldn’t notice there wasn’t any salt in the crust after 2 slices of the baked Buddy’s clone was eaten.

Do you think my dough without salt was mixed enough, or do you think I should have mixed longer?

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I think your dough experiment without the salt but with fairly aggressive kneading and good gluten development was a good one because it shows that you can get a finished crust that can support sauce and toppings without sinking and without the need for the strengthening effects of salt. And if you can achieve this result using a basic home stand mixer, you should be able to achieve similar--and most likely even better--results using your Hobart mixer at market. As you know, we have become accustomed to thinking about and using short kneads and relying on biochemical gluten development to a considerable degree to do a good amount of the heavy lifting. The Buddy's dough may be one of those cases where a long, and fairly aggressive knead is the better way to go. In fact, with no salt and with a high hydration value, it may be obligatory.

In retrospect, I think using more sauce than normal was a good idea. I would not have suggested that because it would have meant a new experiment with the amount of sauce you would normally use in case the crust sank from the weight of the sauce. You dodged a bullet this time .

As for the other differences in the finished crust, you may have to repeat your experiment at market with your deck oven to see if the omission of the salt was responsible for those differences.

It seems to me from your earlier discussion that you kneaded your dough long enough. However, I think the truer and more important test is with your Hobart mixer at market, where you are selling your pizzas.

A final benefit from your latest test is that it keeps the no-salt theory in play. Of course, that doesn't mean that you should forgo salt in your doughs.

Peter

[Chicago Bob]

MFP...Mighty Fine Pizza! 
Dang Norma, I jus don't see how it can possibly get any better than this...

[norma427]

Norma,

I think your dough experiment without the salt but with fairly aggressive kneading and good gluten development was a good one because it shows that you can get a finished crust that can support sauce and toppings without sinking and without the need for the strengthening effects of salt. And if you can achieve this result using a basic home stand mixer, you should be able to achieve similar--and most likely even better--results using your Hobart mixer at market. As you know, we have become accustomed to thinking about and using short kneads and relying on biochemical gluten development to a considerable degree to do a good amount of the heavy lifting. The Buddy's dough may be one of those cases where a long, and fairly aggressive knead is the better way to go. In fact, with no salt and with a high hydration value, it may be obligatory.

In retrospect, I think using more sauce than normal was a good idea. I would not have suggested that because it would have meant a new experiment with the amount of sauce you would normally use in case the crust sank from the weight of the sauce. You dodged a bullet this time .

As for the other differences in the finished crust, you may have to repeat your experiment at market with your deck oven to see if the omission of the salt was responsible for those differences.

It seems to me from your earlier discussion that you kneaded your dough long enough. However, I think the truer and more important test is with your Hobart mixer at market, where you are selling your pizzas.

A final benefit from your latest test is that it keeps the no-salt theory in play. Of course, that doesn't mean that you should forgo salt in your doughs.

Peter

Peter,

I even wonder if the dough experiment with the aggressive kneading would even benefit this kind of dough.  I had mentioned in my other post that I thought the flat beater did a good job, with out all the other mixing.  When I was finished with mixing with the flat beater on different speeds from 1-3 (like at home with salt) the dough felt ready to be balled.  I then mixed with the dough hook on those high speeds and went back to the flat beater and the dough without salt sure didn’t feel any different to me, than just using the flat beater on 3 speeds.  I thought just ball the Buddy’s clone dough without salt and wait and see what happens.   

I know we have become accustomed to using fairly short kneads and relying on the biochemical development to do most of the heavy lifting for many doughs.  . 

I will mix a Buddy’s clone dough without salt in the Hobart mixer on Monday and hope for the best.  Hopefully things will work out okay.   

Norma

[norma427]

MFP...Mighty Fine Pizza! 
Dang Norma, I jus don't see how it can possibly get any better than this...

Bob,

Thanks!    The Buddy's clone pizza was good without salt in the crust, but I still have nagging feelings if I am doing everything I should be doing.  There is a lot I don't understand about these Buddy's clone pizzas yet.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I even wonder if the dough experiment with the aggressive kneading would even benefit this kind of dough.  I had mentioned in my other post that I thought the flat beater did a good job, with out all the other mixing.  When I was finished with mixing with the flat beater on different speeds from 1-3 (like at home with salt) the dough felt ready to be balled.  I then mixed with the dough hook on those high speeds and went back to the flat beater and the dough without salt sure didn’t feel any different to me, than just using the flat beater on 3 speeds.  I thought just ball the Buddy’s clone dough without salt and wait and see what happens.   

Norma,

You might recall that I cited an article for a very high hydration dough at https://sites.google.com/site/hollosyt/quickrusticciabattapizza. If you look at that article, you will see that the dough is mixed and kneaded entirely with the flat beater (paddle) attachment at high speed for several minutes. I estimate the hydration value for the recipe cited in the article to be a bit over 90%, but as you know from your Pizzarium experience doughs with very high hydration but properly kneaded can be handled without a lot of sticking to the fingers. In Buddy's case, lufty told us that the dough during his tenure at Buddy's was formed into balls and scaled after mixing and placed in pans (Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795). As I mentioned before, I believe the hydration value for Buddy's dough is set at a value to allow even fairly inexperienced workers to be able to make the dough using practices that can be followed at all of Buddy's locations as a standardized procedure. In a home setting where you are only making a few pizzas, you can get away with much higher hydrations but in a commercial setting like Buddy's the bulk dough has to be easy to divide, scale and pan without sticking to everything. 

Another thing you will note from the above article is that the amount of yeast cited is over 1% (about 1.2% if IDY is used). At that value, the dough is essentially an emergency dough, just like Buddy's. You will also note the lack of oil or sugar in the dough described in the article. However, salt is used, at 2.8%.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

You might recall that I cited an article for a very high hydration dough at https://sites.google.com/site/hollosyt/quickrusticciabattapizza. If you look at that article, you will see that the dough is mixed and kneaded entirely with the flat beater (paddle) attachment at high speed for several minutes. I estimate the hydration value for the recipe cited in the article to be a bit over 90%, but as you know from your Pizzarium experience doughs with very high hydration but properly kneaded can be handled without a lot of sticking to the fingers. In Buddy's case, lufty told us that the dough during his tenure at Buddy's was formed into balls and scaled after mixing and placed in pans (Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795). As I mentioned before, I believe the hydration value for Buddy's dough is set at a value to allow even fairly inexperienced workers to be able to make the dough using practices that can be followed at all of Buddy's locations as a standardized procedure. In a home setting where you are only making a few pizzas, you can get away with much higher hydrations but in a commercial setting like Buddy's the bulk dough has to be easy to divide, scale and pan without sticking to everything. 

Peter,

I do recall the article you cited for the very high hydration dough and how it was mixed just with the flat beater.  I also recall from my Pizzarium experiments that doughs of high hydration if properly kneaded can be handled without a lot of sticking to fingers.

I agree that the hydration value for Buddy’s dough is set at a value to allow fairly inexperienced workers to be able to work with their dough. 

Another thing you will note from the above article is that the amount of yeast cited is over 1% (about 1.2% if IDY is used). At that value, the dough is essentially an emergency dough, just like Buddy's. You will also note the lack of oil or sugar in the dough described in the article. However, salt is used, at 2.8%.

Peter

I didn’t notice the yeast amount in the article you reference for the very high hydration dough, but I did notice the higher amount of salt, and the lack of oil and sugar.

I saw the how Buddy’s clone dough mixed well in the Hobart last week.  Will see how well it mixes without salt on Monday.

Norma

[deb415611]

those look great Norma.   I need to spend some time reading through this thread

[norma427]

those look great Norma.   I need to spend some time reading through this thread

Deb,

Thank you!  These Buddy's clone pizzas are fairly easy to make as long as you have a steel pan.  If you look though this thread, you can see some of these Buddy's clone pizzas have been made in a matter of hours, just like other emergency dough pizzas.  Buddy's does basically made emergency dough pizzas.  For an emergency dough pizza, I would say it really can't be told that they are emergency dough pizzas.  It is the combination of the tastes of the cheese or cheese blend, the caramelized edges, the crispy bottom and the light crumb that makes them so good.

Norma

[gschwim]

Norma,

You might recall that I cited an article for a very high hydration dough at https://sites.google.com/site/hollosyt/quickrusticciabattapizza.

Peter

Peter,

Any idea what kind of yeast the recipe to which you linked uses?  (The recipe doesn't say.)  If I want to use IDY, is 1 tsp okay or should I reduce the amount?  1 tsp of IDY seems a lot, even for a "quick rise" dough, for only 250 g of flour.

Thanks.

Gene

[Pete-zza]

Any idea what kind of yeast the recipe to which you linked uses?  (The recipe doesn't say.)  If I want to use IDY, is 1 tsp okay or should I reduce the amount?  1 tsp of IDY seems a lot, even for a "quick rise" dough, for only 250 g of flour.

Gene,

Since the yeast is mixed in with the rest of the ingredients, I would guess it is IDY. ADY normally requires prehydrating in part of the formula water at a temperature of around 105 degrees F for about ten minutes, whereupon it can be combined with either the rest of the formula water (at its normal temperature) or the rest of the ingredients. If you have IDY, I would go with that. 1.2% IDY is a lot of yeast but it would not be out of line for an emergency dough intended to be made and used in about two hours.

It would be interesting to see if the recipe can be used to make a Buddy's clone without collapsing from the weight of everything put onto the dough. By my calculation, the recipe makes around 17 ounces of dough. About 9 to 10 ounces would be enough to make a 4-square Buddy's clone.

Peter

[gschwim]

Gene,

Since the yeast is mixed in with the rest of the ingredients, I would guess it is IDY. ADY normally requires prehydrating in part of the formula water at a temperature of around 105 degrees F for about ten minutes, whereupon it can be combined with either the rest of the formula water (at its normal temperature) or the rest of the ingredients. If you have IDY, I would go with that. 1.2% IDY is a lot of yeast but it would not be out of line for an emergency dough intended to be made and used in about two hours.

It would be interesting to see if the recipe can be used to make a Buddy's clone without collapsing from the weight of everything put onto the dough. By my calculation, the recipe makes around 17 ounces of dough. About 9 to 10 ounces would be enough to make a 4-square Buddy's clone.

Peter

I'm definitely planning to try it.  If I can remember, I'll report back on how it works out.

Gene

[norma427]

Sorry, that all of my pictures are all over the place in sizes, but I am using my daughters old camera until I get my new one which should be Wednesday.  It seems every time I change cameras the pictures have to be resized differently on paint.

I sure don’t know, but I think the Buddy’s clone dough might be mixed enough without salt in the dough. 

The Buddy’s clone dough without salt was first mixed on speed 1-2-3-3-3 in the first video.

<a href="http://youtu.be/DRokFgCwVdI" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://youtu.be/DRokFgCwVdI</a>

In the second video the speeds were 3-3.

<a href="http://youtu.be/jpNb5ZbZq7k" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://youtu.be/jpNb5ZbZq7k</a>

I then took the dough out of the mixer bowl and placed it on the marble slab and was going to start dividing it, but decided to put it back into the mixer and mix more.  I took the final dough temperature before I put the dough back into the mixer bowl.  The final dough temperature then was 74.1 degrees F.  In the third video the dough was mixed on speeds 3-3 again.

<a href="http://youtu.be/qz8gHQFCROs" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://youtu.be/qz8gHQFCROs</a>

I think it can be seen how the dough after mixing for awhile wanted to then gather on the flat beater.  That is either when I changed speeds, or pulled a some dough off the flat beater and started mixing again.  I think it can also be seen when speeds are changed it throws the dough off some of from the flat beater.

The dough balls were scaled to the same weights as last week.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[Chicago Bob]

I could use one of those Mountain Dews and.....oh yeah, 2 of these to go please.....