Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!

[norma427]

I could use one of those Mountain Dews and.....oh yeah, 2 of these to go please.....

Bob,

You could easily make one of these kinds of pies yourself.  They are a lot easier than some other kinds of pizzas.

Norma

[Chicago Bob]

Bob,

You could easily make one of these kinds of pies yourself.  They are a lot easier than some other kinds of pizzas.

Norma

You are very kind Norma, it's no secret though...you have a knack for turning out really great stuff when you put your mind to it. I know I will give this awesome style a go soon. Hope you have a fun day at the Market tomorrow sweetie.  Thanks for your encouragement! 

[Ev]

Hey Sweetie, I mean Norma. I'll bring the basil and chicken marinade along tomorrow. 

[Chicago Bob]

Hey Sweetie, I mean Norma. I'll bring the basil and chicken marinade along tomorrow.  

That's right bucko...better check yoself!  

Jeez, I get zero respect 'round here...can't even talk nice nice to my 'lil girlio ever now an then ya know?! 

[Ev]

It's all good Bob. I mean Sweetie.

[Chicago Bob]

 

[norma427]

Craig,

These are the times and temperatures for the bakes of the Buddy’s clone pizzas today.  The temperatures ranged from 514-532 degrees F, when measuring the temperature on the top deck of the Baker‘s Pride oven different times today.

The times it took for baking the Buddy’s clones pizzas I timed were.

15 minutes 48 seconds
15 minutes 25 seconds
15 minutes 44 seconds
15 minutes 32 seconds

Norma

[norma427]

The Buddy’s clone dough balls without salt worked out well today.  They were gassier than last week in that the dough balls were gassier when they were pressed out in the steel pans and the doughs also tempered faster in the Hatco Unit.  I can be seen in the second dough in the steel pan that it tempered more than last week in less amount of time.  I guess since no salt was added to the dough that is why the dough balls were gassier and tempered faster.

These are the pictures from the first two Buddy’s clone pizzas made this morning.

I didn’t mind there was no salt in the crust because of all the other flavors of the baked dressings, caramelized edges and crispy bottom crust, but Steve can comment on what he thought.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[TXCraig1]

Thank you Norma!

[norma427]

Thank you Norma!

Craig,

Anytime.  I don't know if you recalled when I posted a couple minutes more in the oven at market doesn't make that much difference in how they baked.

Norma

[Ev]

I really missed the salt in the dough. Norma said it's all in my mind because I knew there was no salt, but I don't think so. Sure, there was lots of salt flavor in all the cheese and toppings, but when getting to the meat of the crust, there was definite blandness. Still really good pizza though.

[gschwim]

Craig,

These are the times and temperatures for the bakes of the Buddy’s clone pizzas today

Norma

Norma,

What kind of flour are you using?

Gene

[norma427]

Norma,

What kind of flour are you using?

Gene

Gene,

I posted the picture of the 50 lb. bag of Occident bromated flour I am using at Reply 1083 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg230850.html#msg230850  I also posted a picture at Reply 359 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg223989.html#msg223989 that I purchased a 25 lb. bag of Occident bromated flour. 

I purchased the Occident flour after Buddy’s told me the protein of their flour was 12.2% at Reply 105 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg220791.html#msg220791  I asked for clarification about that protein number after Peter suggested what I should ask and reported on what Buddy’s said at Reply 111  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg220815.html#msg220815

Peter then told me what flour had a protein of 12.2%.  Peter Reply was at 112 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg220819.html#msg220819

Norma

[Pete-zza]

The Buddy’s clone dough balls without salt worked out well today.  They were gassier than last week in that the dough balls were gassier when they were pressed out in the steel pans and the doughs also tempered faster in the Hatco Unit.  I can be seen in the second dough in the steel pan that it tempered more than last week in less amount of time.  I guess since no salt was added to the dough that is why the dough balls were gassier and tempered faster.

Norma,

The absence of salt actually has several effects. First, by omitting the salt, you lose the fermentation regulating function of salt because of salt's effect on yeast and enzyme (e.g., amylase) performance. So, the dough will rise faster because there is nothing to inhibit the functions of the yeast and enzymes. Second, you will also get less color in the finished crust. Salt acts as an antioxidant in the dough that normally protects oxidation of the carotenoids in flour. Carotenoids are responsible for color in a baked product (as well as several other effects). Without that antioxidant effect, and especially if the dough is aggressively mixed, as you did with your latest Buddy's clone dough, the carotenoids are damaged, resulting in less residual sugar in the dough at the time of baking and reduced color in the dough and finished crust. The bleaching agents used in the flour, such as your Occident flour, will also contribute to a whiter crumb. Third, as previously discussed, without salt you lose the gluten and dough strengthening effects of the salt. That is why I suggested using an extended knead of the dough to more fully develop the gluten matrix so that it can more effectively capture and retain the gases of fermentation and produce a greater volume in the dough. I think the reason why the dough was still a bit sticky even after the extended knead was due to the lack of salt in the dough.

Under the conditions described above, I am curious to know if you (or Steve) noticed any difference in the color of the crumb of your most recent Buddy's clone pizzas as compared with the crusts of the Buddy's clones without the salt.

If you are interested, you can read more about the effects of the lack of salt in a dough in the King Arthur article on salt at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/salt.html.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

The absence of salt actually has several effects. First, by omitting the salt, you lose the fermentation regulating function of salt because of salt's effect on yeast and enzyme (e.g., amylase) performance. So, the dough will rise faster because there is nothing to inhibit the functions of the yeast and enzymes. Second, you will also get less color in the finished crust. Salt acts as an antioxidant in the dough that normally protects oxidation of the carotenoids in flour. Carotenoids are responsible for color in a baked product (as well as several other effects). Without that antioxidant effect, and especially if the dough is aggressively mixed, as you did with your latest Buddy's clone dough, the carotenoids are damaged, resulting in less residual sugar in the dough at the time of baking and reduced color in the dough and finished crust. The bleaching agents used in the flour, such as your Occident flour, will also contribute to a whiter crumb. Third, as previously discussed, without salt you lose the gluten and dough strengthening effects of the salt. That is why I suggested using an extended knead of the dough to more fully develop the gluten matrix so that it can more effectively capture and retain the gases of fermentation and produce a greater volume in the dough. I think the reason why the dough was still a bit sticky even after the extended knead was due to the lack of salt in the dough.

Under the conditions described above, I am curious to know if you (or Steve) noticed any difference in the color of the crumb of your most recent Buddy's clone pizzas as compared with the crusts of the Buddy's clones without the salt.

If you are interested, you can read more about the effects of the lack of salt in a dough in the King Arthur article on salt at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/salt.html.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for explaining about the absence of salt in a dough and what those effects are.  It is interesting that salt acts as an antioxidant in the dough that normally protects oxidation of the carotenoids in flour and especially if the dough is aggressively mixed like I did the carotenoids are damaged resulting in less residual sugar in the dough at time of baking and reduced color in the dough and finished crust.  I guess the Buddy’s clone dough without salt was aggressively mixed enough, but I still can’t be sure if I mixed it aggressively enough.  I think it is good you think the reason the dough was still a little bit sticky even after the extended knead was due to the lack of salt in the dough.

I don’t think Steve and I noticed any different color in the crumb from the absence of salt, but Steve can also comment on that.  I did look at all the crumbs I could, but they all looked the same color to me. 

Thanks also for the link on the King Arthur website about the effects of lack of salt in a dough.  I will read it over more after I have some more coffee and wake up better.

I have some more pictures to post and also some more comments.  The one Buddy’s clone dough ball was put into a plastic bag, because I wanted to see if the dough without salt could then be put into a pan, if it would spread out easily and also temper the same.  I will post about that in my next post.

Norma 

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Yesterday, I went back to the Buddy's thread and re-read it. I was specifically looking for what was said in that thread about the way that Buddy's makes (or made) its dough. What has been nagging me for some time is the notion of "double kneading". If you re-read paragraph 2 of Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436, you will see a lot of discussion of how the Buddy's dough is stretched and otherwise handled to get it into the pans in the desired manner. Some of that information came from Buddy's itself, or from former employees or others who had knowledge of Buddy's practices. But what has troubled me about the explanation is that the term "knead" has a specific meaning to me and, I believe, to just about any who has ever kneaded dough, whether by hand or by use of a machine. I suppose that one could say that a series of stretch and folds is a form of kneading, but that is not what Buddy's does as best I can tell from what I have read about their dough making and handling procedures. Instead, what I have read is steps like stretching and tugging and pulling a piece of dough. Those steps do not strike me as "kneading".

Some time ago, when the "double kneading" aspect of Buddy's dough was first being debated, member DKM offered up his explanation of "double kneading", at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3805.msg31806.html#msg31806. It was in the course of re-reading the Buddy's thread that I stumbled upon DKM's post again. DKM's post seems credible to me as an explanation of double kneading--more credible in my opinion than what I was told by Buddy's--and especially in light of what we now know about Buddy's dough and what you have been trying to accomplish with your Buddy's clone doughs. I mention all of this since it might be worthwhile to use a rest period during preparation of the Buddy's clone dough. That rest period would be tantamount to a classic Calvel autolyse, especially if the salt is omitted, but whether the salt is omitted or not, there will be improved hydration of the dough and a positive effect on the development of the gluten. As for the period of rest, I looked at what Prof. Calvel used for his bread doughs in his book The Taste of Bread. In fact, I wrote on this subject at Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3220.msg74624.html#msg74624. Based on Prof. Calvel's recommendations, I think that a rest period (classic autolyse or with salt) of about 10-15 minutes would suffice in your case.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Yesterday, I went back to the Buddy's thread and re-read it. I was specifically looking for what was said in that thread about the way that Buddy's makes (or made) its dough. What has been nagging me for some time is the notion of "double kneading". If you re-read paragraph 2 of Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436, you will see a lot of discussion of how the Buddy's dough is stretched and otherwise handled to get it into the pans in the desired manner. Some of that information came from Buddy's itself, or from former employees or others who had knowledge of Buddy's practices. But what has troubled me about the explanation is that the term "knead" has a specific meaning to me and, I believe, to just about any who has ever kneaded dough, whether by hand or by use of a machine. I suppose that one could say that a series of stretch and folds is a form of kneading, but that is not what Buddy's does as best I can tell from what I have read about their dough making and handling procedures. Instead, what I have read is steps like stretching and tugging and pulling a piece of dough. Those steps do not strike me as "kneading".

Some time ago, when the "double kneading" aspect of Buddy's dough was first being debated, member DKM offered up his explanation of "double kneading", at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3805.msg31806.html#msg31806. It was in the course of re-reading the Buddy's thread that I stumbled upon DKM's post again. DKM's post seems credible to me as an explanation of double kneading--more credible in my opinion than what I was told by Buddy's--and especially in light of what we now know about Buddy's dough and what you have been trying to accomplish with your Buddy's clone doughs. I mention all of this since it might be worthwhile to use a rest period during preparation of the Buddy's clone dough. That rest period would be tantamount to a classic Calvel autolyse, especially if the salt is omitted, but whether the salt is omitted or not, there will be improved hydration of the dough and a positive effect on the development of the gluten. As for the period of rest, I looked at what Prof. Calvel used for his bread doughs in his book The Taste of Bread. In fact, I wrote on this subject at Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3220.msg74624.html#msg74624. Based on Prof. Calvel's recommendations, I think that a rest period (classic autolyse or with salt) of about 10-15 minutes would suffice in your case.

Peter

Peter,

I also wondered what is mean by “double kneading” or other methods were.  Thanks also for the link to the xml document where Les Pikula said that the dough is “stretched” numerous times and the whole process for a Buddy’s pizza is labor intensive, but gives the characteristic they like in a Buddy‘s pizza. 

I believe DKM’s explanation about “double kneading” in the commercial industry is a good explanation to just let the dough sit in the mixer bowl for a certain amount of time and then mix again.  I have seen when just letting almost any big dough ball batches sit out, they do become less sticky (and even can form a dry skin fairly fast.  I wonder what happens though in the warmer weather when giving the dough extra time to start the ferment.  I guess then you need to add ice, or colder water (colder final dough temperature) so the dough doesn’t start to ferment too much.  Maybe also less yeast could be added.  I sure don’t know, but wonder if adding less yeast would then give the lift in the final pizzas.  I would think a lower final dough temperature like Buddy’s might be doing would be better than adding less yeast, but then I am doing a cold ferment so things get more complicated for me to understand.  I didn’t see before you posted that Gene started that thread about “double kneading”.  Your Reply at 5 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3805.msg31842.html#msg31842  seems like what that manger told you was something else though so I can see why you think DKM’s post was more credible.

I can understand that it might be worthwhile to use a rest period during preparation of the Buddy’s clone dough.  Thanks for finding Prof. Calvel’s recommendations and saying that about a 10-15 minute rest period should suffice in what I am trying. 

I wanted to ask you one question about using salt in a Buddy’s clone dough.  What is the lowest amount of salt do you think I could use so the crust does have some added flavor from salt and do you think I should try Kosher salt, or just regular salt?

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I really missed the salt in the dough. Norma said it's all in my mind because I knew there was no salt, but I don't think so. Sure, there was lots of salt flavor in all the cheese and toppings, but when getting to the meat of the crust, there was definite blandness. Still really good pizza though.

Steve,

When I researched other well known doughs that use no salt, specifically, the Malnati's and Gino's East deep-dish doughs, the only place that I saw that there was no salt in their doughs was from ingredients lists. Neither company otherwise made a point of telling people that there was no salt in their dough. In my opinion, knowing people's attachment to salt, I wouldnt tell them either, even if it could arguably be good for them to have less salt in their diet. To many people, the mere suggestion or notion of no salt can be something of a turn off because it strongly suggests a lack of flavor. So, in Buddy's case, if they are not using salt in their dough, I wouldn't tell them either. A second reason is that I don't think that I would want my customers, or people like Norma and I who are examining their products, to know that all there is in the dough is a relatively small amount of flour, a lot of cheap water, and yeast . Buddy's diners might say "That's it!!!? And you are charging me almost eight bucks for a chintzy 4-square cheese pizza, and that is before drinks or anything else? Geez."

The term "bland" that you used is appropriate for a dough and crust that contains only flour, water and yeast. If you research salt-free Tuscan breads, you will find the same term used to describe the taste of the bread. King Arthur alternatively uses the expressions "flat and insipid". But you are not the only one to describe a crust without salt as "bland". That is the same term as one Buddy's diner used to describe Buddy's crust, as you will see in the Yelp comment by Kelly A,. who reported "My husband was also very disappointed with his pizza - his crust was also totally bland" (http://www.yelp.com/biz/buddys-pizza-royal-oak). Whether the crust in that case was totally bland because of the lack of salt is hard to say (although a salted crust does have flavor), since some might consider a crust with only flour, water, salt and yeast as "bland". My only issue about the salt or lack thereof in Buddy's dough is that I have not been able to establish that Buddy's uses any meaningful amount of salt in its dough. It may well be that the Buddy's Nutrition information is faulty or inaccurate. But that is all I have to go on at the moment.

To the above I should add that when DKM made his clone of the Malnati's dough, he chose to use salt, as did BTB with his semolina-based Malnati's clone.

Peter