Author Topic: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 218814 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1275 on: January 23, 2013, 07:54:25 AM »
The Buddy’s clone dough balls without salt worked out well today.  They were gassier than last week in that the dough balls were gassier when they were pressed out in the steel pans and the doughs also tempered faster in the Hatco Unit.  I can be seen in the second dough in the steel pan that it tempered more than last week in less amount of time.  I guess since no salt was added to the dough that is why the dough balls were gassier and tempered faster.
Norma,

The absence of salt actually has several effects. First, by omitting the salt, you lose the fermentation regulating function of salt because of salt's effect on yeast and enzyme (e.g., amylase) performance. So, the dough will rise faster because there is nothing to inhibit the functions of the yeast and enzymes. Second, you will also get less color in the finished crust. Salt acts as an antioxidant in the dough that normally protects oxidation of the carotenoids in flour. Carotenoids are responsible for color in a baked product (as well as several other effects). Without that antioxidant effect, and especially if the dough is aggressively mixed, as you did with your latest Buddy's clone dough, the carotenoids are damaged, resulting in less residual sugar in the dough at the time of baking and reduced color in the dough and finished crust. The bleaching agents used in the flour, such as your Occident flour, will also contribute to a whiter crumb. Third, as previously discussed, without salt you lose the gluten and dough strengthening effects of the salt. That is why I suggested using an extended knead of the dough to more fully develop the gluten matrix so that it can more effectively capture and retain the gases of fermentation and produce a greater volume in the dough. I think the reason why the dough was still a bit sticky even after the extended knead was due to the lack of salt in the dough.

Under the conditions described above, I am curious to know if you (or Steve) noticed any difference in the color of the crumb of your most recent Buddy's clone pizzas as compared with the crusts of the Buddy's clones without the salt.

If you are interested, you can read more about the effects of the lack of salt in a dough in the King Arthur article on salt at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/salt.html.

Peter


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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1276 on: January 23, 2013, 08:33:47 AM »
Norma,

The absence of salt actually has several effects. First, by omitting the salt, you lose the fermentation regulating function of salt because of salt's effect on yeast and enzyme (e.g., amylase) performance. So, the dough will rise faster because there is nothing to inhibit the functions of the yeast and enzymes. Second, you will also get less color in the finished crust. Salt acts as an antioxidant in the dough that normally protects oxidation of the carotenoids in flour. Carotenoids are responsible for color in a baked product (as well as several other effects). Without that antioxidant effect, and especially if the dough is aggressively mixed, as you did with your latest Buddy's clone dough, the carotenoids are damaged, resulting in less residual sugar in the dough at the time of baking and reduced color in the dough and finished crust. The bleaching agents used in the flour, such as your Occident flour, will also contribute to a whiter crumb. Third, as previously discussed, without salt you lose the gluten and dough strengthening effects of the salt. That is why I suggested using an extended knead of the dough to more fully develop the gluten matrix so that it can more effectively capture and retain the gases of fermentation and produce a greater volume in the dough. I think the reason why the dough was still a bit sticky even after the extended knead was due to the lack of salt in the dough.

Under the conditions described above, I am curious to know if you (or Steve) noticed any difference in the color of the crumb of your most recent Buddy's clone pizzas as compared with the crusts of the Buddy's clones without the salt.

If you are interested, you can read more about the effects of the lack of salt in a dough in the King Arthur article on salt at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/salt.html.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for explaining about the absence of salt in a dough and what those effects are.  It is interesting that salt acts as an antioxidant in the dough that normally protects oxidation of the carotenoids in flour and especially if the dough is aggressively mixed like I did the carotenoids are damaged resulting in less residual sugar in the dough at time of baking and reduced color in the dough and finished crust.  I guess the Buddy’s clone dough without salt was aggressively mixed enough, but I still can’t be sure if I mixed it aggressively enough.  I think it is good you think the reason the dough was still a little bit sticky even after the extended knead was due to the lack of salt in the dough.

I don’t think Steve and I noticed any different color in the crumb from the absence of salt, but Steve can also comment on that.  I did look at all the crumbs I could, but they all looked the same color to me. 

Thanks also for the link on the King Arthur website about the effects of lack of salt in a dough.  I will read it over more after I have some more coffee and wake up better.

I have some more pictures to post and also some more comments.  The one Buddy’s clone dough ball was put into a plastic bag, because I wanted to see if the dough without salt could then be put into a pan, if it would spread out easily and also temper the same.  I will post about that in my next post.

Norma 
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1277 on: January 23, 2013, 08:37:05 AM »
Norma,

Yesterday, I went back to the Buddy's thread and re-read it. I was specifically looking for what was said in that thread about the way that Buddy's makes (or made) its dough. What has been nagging me for some time is the notion of "double kneading". If you re-read paragraph 2 of Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436, you will see a lot of discussion of how the Buddy's dough is stretched and otherwise handled to get it into the pans in the desired manner. Some of that information came from Buddy's itself, or from former employees or others who had knowledge of Buddy's practices. But what has troubled me about the explanation is that the term "knead" has a specific meaning to me and, I believe, to just about any who has ever kneaded dough, whether by hand or by use of a machine. I suppose that one could say that a series of stretch and folds is a form of kneading, but that is not what Buddy's does as best I can tell from what I have read about their dough making and handling procedures. Instead, what I have read is steps like stretching and tugging and pulling a piece of dough. Those steps do not strike me as "kneading".

Some time ago, when the "double kneading" aspect of Buddy's dough was first being debated, member DKM offered up his explanation of "double kneading", at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3805.msg31806.html#msg31806. It was in the course of re-reading the Buddy's thread that I stumbled upon DKM's post again. DKM's post seems credible to me as an explanation of double kneading--more credible in my opinion than what I was told by Buddy's--and especially in light of what we now know about Buddy's dough and what you have been trying to accomplish with your Buddy's clone doughs. I mention all of this since it might be worthwhile to use a rest period during preparation of the Buddy's clone dough. That rest period would be tantamount to a classic Calvel autolyse, especially if the salt is omitted, but whether the salt is omitted or not, there will be improved hydration of the dough and a positive effect on the development of the gluten. As for the period of rest, I looked at what Prof. Calvel used for his bread doughs in his book The Taste of Bread. In fact, I wrote on this subject at Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3220.msg74624.html#msg74624. Based on Prof. Calvel's recommendations, I think that a rest period (classic autolyse or with salt) of about 10-15 minutes would suffice in your case.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1278 on: January 23, 2013, 09:19:36 AM »
Norma,

Yesterday, I went back to the Buddy's thread and re-read it. I was specifically looking for what was said in that thread about the way that Buddy's makes (or made) its dough. What has been nagging me for some time is the notion of "double kneading". If you re-read paragraph 2 of Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436, you will see a lot of discussion of how the Buddy's dough is stretched and otherwise handled to get it into the pans in the desired manner. Some of that information came from Buddy's itself, or from former employees or others who had knowledge of Buddy's practices. But what has troubled me about the explanation is that the term "knead" has a specific meaning to me and, I believe, to just about any who has ever kneaded dough, whether by hand or by use of a machine. I suppose that one could say that a series of stretch and folds is a form of kneading, but that is not what Buddy's does as best I can tell from what I have read about their dough making and handling procedures. Instead, what I have read is steps like stretching and tugging and pulling a piece of dough. Those steps do not strike me as "kneading".

Some time ago, when the "double kneading" aspect of Buddy's dough was first being debated, member DKM offered up his explanation of "double kneading", at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3805.msg31806.html#msg31806. It was in the course of re-reading the Buddy's thread that I stumbled upon DKM's post again. DKM's post seems credible to me as an explanation of double kneading--more credible in my opinion than what I was told by Buddy's--and especially in light of what we now know about Buddy's dough and what you have been trying to accomplish with your Buddy's clone doughs. I mention all of this since it might be worthwhile to use a rest period during preparation of the Buddy's clone dough. That rest period would be tantamount to a classic Calvel autolyse, especially if the salt is omitted, but whether the salt is omitted or not, there will be improved hydration of the dough and a positive effect on the development of the gluten. As for the period of rest, I looked at what Prof. Calvel used for his bread doughs in his book The Taste of Bread. In fact, I wrote on this subject at Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3220.msg74624.html#msg74624. Based on Prof. Calvel's recommendations, I think that a rest period (classic autolyse or with salt) of about 10-15 minutes would suffice in your case.

Peter

Peter,

I also wondered what is mean by “double kneading” or other methods were.  Thanks also for the link to the xml document where Les Pikula said that the dough is “stretched” numerous times and the whole process for a Buddy’s pizza is labor intensive, but gives the characteristic they like in a Buddy‘s pizza. 

I believe DKM’s explanation about “double kneading” in the commercial industry is a good explanation to just let the dough sit in the mixer bowl for a certain amount of time and then mix again.  I have seen when just letting almost any big dough ball batches sit out, they do become less sticky (and even can form a dry skin fairly fast.  I wonder what happens though in the warmer weather when giving the dough extra time to start the ferment.  I guess then you need to add ice, or colder water (colder final dough temperature) so the dough doesn’t start to ferment too much.  Maybe also less yeast could be added.  I sure don’t know, but wonder if adding less yeast would then give the lift in the final pizzas.  I would think a lower final dough temperature like Buddy’s might be doing would be better than adding less yeast, but then I am doing a cold ferment so things get more complicated for me to understand.  I didn’t see before you posted that Gene started that thread about “double kneading”.  Your Reply at 5 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3805.msg31842.html#msg31842  seems like what that manger told you was something else though so I can see why you think DKM’s post was more credible.

I can understand that it might be worthwhile to use a rest period during preparation of the Buddy’s clone dough.  Thanks for finding Prof. Calvel’s recommendations and saying that about a 10-15 minute rest period should suffice in what I am trying. 

I wanted to ask you one question about using salt in a Buddy’s clone dough.  What is the lowest amount of salt do you think I could use so the crust does have some added flavor from salt and do you think I should try Kosher salt, or just regular salt?

Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1279 on: January 23, 2013, 09:49:38 AM »
I really missed the salt in the dough. Norma said it's all in my mind because I knew there was no salt, but I don't think so. Sure, there was lots of salt flavor in all the cheese and toppings, but when getting to the meat of the crust, there was definite blandness. Still really good pizza though.
Steve,

When I researched other well known doughs that use no salt, specifically, the Malnati's and Gino's East deep-dish doughs, the only place that I saw that there was no salt in their doughs was from ingredients lists. Neither company otherwise made a point of telling people that there was no salt in their dough. In my opinion, knowing people's attachment to salt, I wouldnt tell them either, even if it could arguably be good for them to have less salt in their diet. To many people, the mere suggestion or notion of no salt can be something of a turn off because it strongly suggests a lack of flavor. So, in Buddy's case, if they are not using salt in their dough, I wouldn't tell them either. A second reason is that I don't think that I would want my customers, or people like Norma and I who are examining their products, to know that all there is in the dough is a relatively small amount of flour, a lot of cheap water, and yeast :-D. Buddy's diners might say "That's it!!!? And you are charging me almost eight bucks for a chintzy 4-square cheese pizza, and that is before drinks or anything else? Geez."

The term "bland" that you used is appropriate for a dough and crust that contains only flour, water and yeast. If you research salt-free Tuscan breads, you will find the same term used to describe the taste of the bread. King Arthur alternatively uses the expressions "flat and insipid". But you are not the only one to describe a crust without salt as "bland". That is the same term as one Buddy's diner used to describe Buddy's crust, as you will see in the Yelp comment by Kelly A,. who reported "My husband was also very disappointed with his pizza - his crust was also totally bland" (http://www.yelp.com/biz/buddys-pizza-royal-oak). Whether the crust in that case was totally bland because of the lack of salt is hard to say (although a salted crust does have flavor), since some might consider a crust with only flour, water, salt and yeast as "bland". My only issue about the salt or lack thereof in Buddy's dough is that I have not been able to establish that Buddy's uses any meaningful amount of salt in its dough. It may well be that the Buddy's Nutrition information is faulty or inaccurate. But that is all I have to go on at the moment.

To the above I should add that when DKM made his clone of the Malnati's dough, he chose to use salt, as did BTB with his semolina-based Malnati's clone.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1280 on: January 23, 2013, 10:29:59 AM »
From the land of the cold (8 degrees F this morning), these are the rest of the Buddy’s clone pizzas made yesterday that I got to take pictures of and also a few more of my thoughts about the dough, tempering and final pizzas.

To add to what Steve said about the crust being bland on the Buddy’s pizzas made yesterday with no salt, I also thought the crust was bland if I just tasted the crust.

Most of all these pictures will have a white spot in the middle of the pictures.  These pictures were from my daughter’s old camera that I ruined somehow at market before, but at least the camera still takes pictures.  I got my new camera yesterday sent by FedEx.  I don’t know why, but I had to resize the photos from last evening two times each.  I am only resizing these photos one time so they might not be as large as the photos from last evening.  It just takes too long to resize photos two times with paint.  If anyone wants larger pictures then I am posting, I can enlarge a few.

The next Buddy’s clone pizza was a fresh Italian sausage and roasted red pepper pizza.  The other ones were a cheese pizza, another pepperoni, another cheese, and mesquite chicken (Steve’s Marco Pollo).  We added Jeff’s aged brick cheese to the blend of AMPI mild white cheddar and two mozzarellas and Steve Marco Pollo Buddy’s clone.  Jeff’s aged brick cheese added to the blend was very good on the Marco Pollo Buddy’s clone, but I don’t think I would want used just the aged brick cheese plain on a Buddy’s clone pizza.  It is has a strong aroma and is strong when tasting it plain, but all of our tastes are different.  Thanks again Jeff, for sending me two brick cheese to try on the Buddy’s clone pizzas!  ;D

Steve brought along some of the soft part skim raw milk farmer’s cheese to try on the one pizza with a little of the mozzarella blend.  That cheese was very good on the one Buddy’s clone pizza.  It can been seen that the edge crust caramelized in a lighter color though.  It tasted great in my opinion.

It can been seen in the one picture of what the dough ball looked like in the plastic ball and also when I was pressing it out in the steel pan.  It was very gassy, but was easy to press out cold in the steel pan.  That dough in the steel pan also tempered very fast in the Hatco Unit.  At least I know that a plastic bag can be used to stored dough balls and the final Buddy’s clone pizza are still the same.  The whole Buddy’s clone pizza with the ruler in the picture was a meatball, sauce and cheese whole pizza Jim ordered.

I tried my one bread pan which I seasoned a little last week, but it could be seasoned more.  I had the dough ball in a plastic bag, which I never weighed that I used in the bread pan.  It was just leftover dough.  The temper time in the Hatco Unit was very short and should have probably been longer  It worked out okay, but if I have leftover dough, I will have to figure out how much dough to add to that bread pan (or the other bread pans I have), because the amount of dough was too much.  I guess the bread pan is also steel, but I am not sure.  That experiment was done at the end of the day and I didn’t have anymore grated AMPI mild cheddar.  Steve had brought along some regular farmer’s cheese, so he quickly grated the farmer‘s cheese.  I never thought to try farmer’s cheese on a Buddy’s clone, but it tasted very good too.  Farmer’s cheese almost tastes like a good mozzarella and is very creamy when eaten plain.  The farmer’s cheese also melts well on a Buddy’s clone pizza.

I know I posted to Craig, that the bake times can be a little longer, but wanted to post that several times Steve and I were busy and a couple of the Buddy’s clone pizzas were left it the oven longer than the times I posted.  They were still okay. 

All of the Buddy’s clone doughs balls were used to make the Buddy’s clone pizzas yesterday.  Even though it was very cold and not really busy at market, more people are telling other people about the Detroit style pizza I am offering and I am also having repeat customers that want more Detroit style slices.  I still have to get a lot of things down faster if I want to be able to keep up with more than one style of pizza.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1281 on: January 23, 2013, 10:32:10 AM »
Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1282 on: January 23, 2013, 10:33:48 AM »
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1283 on: January 23, 2013, 10:35:06 AM »
Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1284 on: January 23, 2013, 10:36:37 AM »
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1285 on: January 23, 2013, 10:37:55 AM »
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1286 on: January 23, 2013, 10:39:29 AM »
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1287 on: January 23, 2013, 10:41:34 AM »
Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1288 on: January 23, 2013, 11:11:11 AM »
Norma,

I wonder what happens though in the warmer weather when giving the dough extra time to start the ferment.  I guess then you need to add ice, or colder water (colder final dough temperature) so the dough doesn’t start to ferment too much.  Maybe also less yeast could be added.  I sure don’t know, but wonder if adding less yeast would then give the lift in the final pizzas.  I would think a lower final dough temperature like Buddy’s might be doing would be better than adding less yeast, but then I am doing a cold ferment so things get more complicated for me to understand.
When I first read Reply 95 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73765.html#msg73765, I thought that the cold water and ice were used to compensate for high ambient temperature in Buddy's dough prep area or to compensate for normal higher summer temperatures. I now believe that the cold water and ice were used to make the dough hold out longer. As a practical matter, what that means is that the youngest dough that is used to make a pizza, for example, for the lunchtime crowd, is likely to have less fermentation and produce a crust that has a relatively tight crumb that is not as open and airy as with a longer fermented dough. The crust will also not have a great deal of flavor beyond the flavor of the yeast and flour because of the brief fermentation time and the relative paucity of fermentation byproducts. From a flavor standpoint, the best dough will be the one that is used last because of all of the fermentation byproducts. The crust of that pizza is also likely to have a more open and airy and irregular crumb but at the same time it is likely to have the weakest structure and have areas that are sunken because the dough itself was weakest at that point and collapsed from the weight of the cheese, sauce and any other toppings. I believe a good example of such a "geriatric" pizza at Buddy's is the one shown at Reply 98 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73872.html#msg73872. Another good example, but in the context of a cold fermented douth, might be the Buddy's clone pizza that Steve showed in the second photo at Reply 1204 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg232239.html#msg232239.

With respect to reducing the amount of yeast in lieu of controlling the finished dough temperature, one of the things that I learned early on from the writings of Tom Lehmann is that it is better to control the finished dough temperature before considering the use of less yeast. The reason is that unless you extend the fermentation time, which isn't always easy to do in a commercial setting with fixed hours of operation, you run the risk that the dough will not ferment enough. In your case, you eventually will have to decide on what kind of Buddy's clone dough formulation to use, including the amount of dough and especially the amount of yeast that will be needed for a cold fermentation application and that will yield a dough that is ready to use when you want to use it. You will also have to decide at some point whether to include salt or not, since as you have seen the lack of salt has powerful effects on the performance of the dough. What you want to use at market is that which does the best job within the parameters of your situation at market. You don't have to be held hostage to what Buddy's does.

I wanted to ask you one question about using salt in a Buddy’s clone dough.  What is the lowest amount of salt do you think I could use so the crust does have some added flavor from salt and do you think I should try Kosher salt, or just regular salt?
I am not a big user of salt in my diet so I may not be the best one to answer that question. As with most food items, different people have different taste palates. I know that when I tried using low salt levels, say, around 1% salt, I found the crust to be too bland. That was for a NY style pizza, not one with a lot of other competing flavors and textures to distract me, as is the case with the Buddy's pizzas (crispy bottom crust, the crispy cheese wall, flavorful sauce, spicy pepperoni, etc.). For my salt taste palate, I would perhaps set a minimum of around 1.50% salt. But more likely, I would go with around 1.75% salt if I am going to use it at all.

As for the type of salt, for your purposes should you decide to use salt, I think you can go with either table salt or Kosher salt. Table salt dissolves more readily in water and may be dispersed within the dough more uniformly as a result (because of its smaller particle size), but you should get similar results if you dissolve the Kosher salt in the water.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1289 on: January 23, 2013, 12:13:58 PM »
Did the DS last night a little differently and really liked the results.  Instead of saucing the pizza at the start of the bake (either under or over the cheese), I baked the pies for 10 minutes with no sauce, then spooned the sauce on top of the cheese and spread it out to just about 1/2" from the edge and then returned the pans to the oven for another five minutes.  Doing it this way allowed the crust to rise evenly across the pan rather than having a higher edge (and denser middle), the cheese to fully cook, and the sauce to maintain its fresh flavor and consistency (it was just steaming a little when it came out of the oven).  If you compare the pics below to some of the others I've posted, you can see that the crust is a little higher (used the same 350g per pan) and the crumb is nice and even across the entire piece. 

Because cooking cold-fermented pizza around the workday schedule requires some juggling, I took a chance and put the partially-fermented dough in the oiled pans in the AM and then back in the fridge until the afternoon, let them sit for a couple hours, stretched and then proofed in a warm oven for another hour, and then dressed and baked.  I also used very little oil and the pies fairly leaped out of the pans with perfect crusts.  Proper seasoning really makes a difference! 

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1290 on: January 23, 2013, 04:10:01 PM »
Norma,
When I first read Reply 95 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73765.html#msg73765, I thought that the cold water and ice were used to compensate for high ambient temperature in Buddy's dough prep area or to compensate for normal higher summer temperatures. I now believe that the cold water and ice were used to make the dough hold out longer. As a practical matter, what that means is that the youngest dough that is used to make a pizza, for example, for the lunchtime crowd, is likely to have less fermentation and produce a crust that has a relatively tight crumb that is not as open and airy as with a longer fermented dough. The crust will also not have a great deal of flavor beyond the flavor of the yeast and flour because of the brief fermentation time and the relative paucity of fermentation byproducts. From a flavor standpoint, the best dough will be the one that is used last because of all of the fermentation byproducts. The crust of that pizza is also likely to have a more open and airy and irregular crumb but at the same time it is likely to have the weakest structure and have areas that are sunken because the dough itself was weakest at that point and collapsed from the weight of the cheese, sauce and any other toppings. I believe a good example of such a "geriatric" pizza at Buddy's is the one shown at Reply 98 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73872.html#msg73872. Another good example, but in the context of a cold fermented douth, might be the Buddy's clone pizza that Steve showed in the second photo at Reply 1204 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg232239.html#msg232239.

With respect to reducing the amount of yeast in lieu of controlling the finished dough temperature, one of the things that I learned early on from the writings of Tom Lehmann is that it is better to control the finished dough temperature before considering the use of less yeast. The reason is that unless you extend the fermentation time, which isn't always easy to do in a commercial setting with fixed hours of operation, you run the risk that the dough will not ferment enough. In your case, you eventually will have to decide on what kind of Buddy's clone dough formulation to use, including the amount of dough and especially the amount of yeast that will be needed for a cold fermentation application and that will yield a dough that is ready to use when you want to use it. You will also have to decide at some point whether to include salt or not, since as you have seen the lack of salt has powerful effects on the performance of the dough. What you want to use at market is that which does the best job within the parameters of your situation at market. You don't have to be held hostage to what Buddy's does.
I am not a big user of salt in my diet so I may not be the best one to answer that question. As with most food items, different people have different taste palates. I know that when I tried using low salt levels, say, around 1% salt, I found the crust to be too bland. That was for a NY style pizza, not one with a lot of other competing flavors and textures to distract me, as is the case with the Buddy's pizzas (crispy bottom crust, the crispy cheese wall, flavorful sauce, spicy pepperoni, etc.). For my salt taste palate, I would perhaps set a minimum of around 1.50% salt. But more likely, I would go with around 1.75% salt if I am going to use it at all.

As for the type of salt, for your purposes should you decide to use salt, I think you can go with either table salt or Kosher salt. Table salt dissolves more readily in water and may be dispersed within the dough more uniformly as a result (because of its smaller particle size), but you should get similar results if you dissolve the Kosher salt in the water.

Peter


Peter,

I understand why you believe the cold water and ice (if that is now what is used at Buddy’s) would make the dough hold out longer and then the first Buddy’s pizzas would have less fermentation and less flavor compared to if the dough is used later in day.  I thought Buddy’s dough was said to made several times a day somewhere on the Buddy’s thread though.  Maybe I am forgetting what different members posted on the Buddy‘s thread.  I can see that the slice picture PizzaHog posted at Reply 98 might have been made from a Buddy’s dough ball that had fermented longer.  I know Steve’s Buddy’s clone pizza was made from the dough ball I gave him and do know that dough ball was fermented longer.

I know Tom Lehmann is an advocate of using better control in finished dough temperatures than using less yeast.  So far the 0.80% IDY is working okay to be able to use the dough the next day all day long, but some problems might develop along the way.  It is hard for me to get the exact same final dough temperature because temperatures do vary weekly at market.  I think I am going to include salt in my Buddy’s clone doughs if it is only for the reasons that a customer might decide to say the crust is too bland at some point, or even because Steve chided me yesterday not to try any more experiments without salt.  If there are any other experiments you want me to do without salt in a Buddy’s clone dough I will do them though, even at the risk of having Steve making a face and saying Norma I don’t believe you have done this again.  :-D

I know by reading your different posts that you are not a big user of salt in your diet.  Thanks for telling me that you would use 1.75% salt if you would use salt at all in a Buddy’s clone.  I will keep using Kosher salt since you said it really doesn’t matter what kind of salt I use and since I do have it at market. 

I think the experiments without salt in a Buddy’s dough did show that a decent pizza can be made without salt though.  The sauce and other dressings didn’t make the crumb sag and really I didn’t have any hills or valleys, so I sure would think Buddy’s possibly might not be using salt if that is what they really do.  I was half afraid to do the experiment with no salt though incase something went wrong and I wouldn’t be able to have any Detroit style pizzas to offer yesterday to customers.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1291 on: January 23, 2013, 04:14:50 PM »
Did the DS last night a little differently and really liked the results.  Instead of saucing the pizza at the start of the bake (either under or over the cheese), I baked the pies for 10 minutes with no sauce, then spooned the sauce on top of the cheese and spread it out to just about 1/2" from the edge and then returned the pans to the oven for another five minutes.  Doing it this way allowed the crust to rise evenly across the pan rather than having a higher edge (and denser middle), the cheese to fully cook, and the sauce to maintain its fresh flavor and consistency (it was just steaming a little when it came out of the oven).  If you compare the pics below to some of the others I've posted, you can see that the crust is a little higher (used the same 350g per pan) and the crumb is nice and even across the entire piece. 

Because cooking cold-fermented pizza around the workday schedule requires some juggling, I took a chance and put the partially-fermented dough in the oiled pans in the AM and then back in the fridge until the afternoon, let them sit for a couple hours, stretched and then proofed in a warm oven for another hour, and then dressed and baked.  I also used very little oil and the pies fairly leaped out of the pans with perfect crusts.  Proper seasoning really makes a difference! 

Britt,

Your Detroit style slice looks really good.  I am glad you liked the results of saucing your Detroit style differently.  Good to also hear your partially fermented dough worked out well when you put the dough in the oiled pan and then back into the fridge until afternoon.

Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1292 on: January 23, 2013, 04:27:29 PM »
I think I am going to include salt in my Buddy’s clone doughs if it is only for the reasons that a customer might decide to say the crust is too bland at some point, or even because Steve chided me yesterday not to try any more experiments without salt.  If there are any other experiments you want me to do without salt in a Buddy’s clone dough I will do them though, even at the risk of having Steve making a face and saying Norma I don’t believe you have done this again.  :-D

Norma,

That is fine. I think you are in good shape going forward.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1293 on: January 23, 2013, 05:43:02 PM »
Norma! Now don't make me come over there and add the stinkin' salt myself! >:D :-D

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1294 on: January 23, 2013, 07:09:46 PM »
Norma! Now don't make me come over there and add the stinkin' salt myself! >:D :-D

Steve,

I know you were disgusted with me yesterday when I didn't add salt to the Buddy's clone dough yesterday, but didn't think it was that bad that you would come over to add salt if I didn't.  :-D It was all for the cause of experimenting to see what would happen when no salt was added.   >:D :angel:  At least we learned something.

You didn't seem to mind tasting the real Buddy's pizza we shared.  You even said that crust tasted bland. 

Norma
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 07:11:20 PM by norma427 »
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1295 on: January 23, 2013, 07:14:03 PM »
I got my new Sony Cyber Shot camera out of the box and started to fiddle with it.  I couldn’t take pictures with my older Sony Cyber Shot camera, because the off-on button is broken since last week, but this is what my daughters old Sony Cyber Shot camera looks like and also the first picture was taken with my daughters older Sony Cyber Shot camera.  I haven’t learned to use my new Sony Cyber Shot camera right yet, but it does seems to take sharper pictures than my older camera and my daughters older camera.  I thought the new Sony Cyber Shot camera wasn’t too bad in price.  It was 148.00.  I didn’t want to pay too much for a new digital camera because I am too hard on cameras when taking pictures at market.  At least my old memory card fits my new camera and the new camera is smaller.

Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1296 on: January 24, 2013, 10:01:51 AM »
I called Foremost Farms from this link this morning about their brick cheese.

http://www.savorwisconsin.com/AllListings/detail.asp?recordid=334&table=producer&return=prodbusiness&productid=760&type=product 

The first lady I spoke to said Foremost Farms produces the brick cheese at their location in Baraboo, WI.  She then redirected my call to another person that told me yes they do sell the brick cheese, but it has to be purchased in 40 lb. blocks and a whole pallet has to be purchased.  The second person then redirected my call to another person and I left a message for him, but I don’t think I will be able to get any of the Foremost Farms brick cheese to try.

Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1297 on: January 24, 2013, 12:44:33 PM »
That's too bad. I would have chipped in for a 40 lb. block, but I don't think we can handle a whole skid. :(

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1298 on: January 24, 2013, 07:26:15 PM »
I called Foremost Farms from this link this morning about their brick cheese.

http://www.savorwisconsin.com/AllListings/detail.asp?recordid=334&table=producer&return=prodbusiness&productid=760&type=product 

The first lady I spoke to said Foremost Farms produces the brick cheese at their location in Baraboo, WI.  She then redirected my call to another person that told me yes they do sell the brick cheese, but it has to be purchased in 40 lb. blocks and a whole pallet has to be purchased.  The second person then redirected my call to another person and I left a message for him, but I don’t think I will be able to get any of the Foremost Farms brick cheese to try.

Norma


Norma,

If you could find out how many blocks are in a pallet and the cost, and how long the cheese can be refrigerated, that would be great.

Actually, it would be great if someone (Pete?) could create a page, perhaps with a link on the home page, of wholesale prices for various brands/types of flour (50 lb. bags), cheese, etc.  Maybe update it once or twice a year.

Gene


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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1299 on: January 24, 2013, 07:54:21 PM »
Actually, it would be great if someone (Pete?) could create a page, perhaps with a link on the home page, of wholesale prices for various brands/types of flour (50 lb. bags), cheese, etc.  Maybe update it once or twice a year.
Gene,

That would be a major task, and one that I do not have time to undertake, especially as a home pizza maker without any professional aspirations. Also, I think that you will find that prices of flours vary all over the place, and are negotiated with foodservice providers and wholesalers.

Peter