Author Topic: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 153976 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1300 on: January 24, 2013, 09:12:14 PM »
Norma,

If you could find out how many blocks are in a pallet and the cost, and how long the cheese can be refrigerated, that would be great.

Actually, it would be great if someone (Pete?) could create a page, perhaps with a link on the home page, of wholesale prices for various brands/types of flour (50 lb. bags), cheese, etc.  Maybe update it once or twice a year.

Gene



Gene,

I can find out how much a pallet of brick cheese costs from Foremost Farms, but think you also can do that if you want to.  I have called many places and not one of them questioned whether I really own a pizzeria or not.  They just take my word for if I have a pizza business.  I can only give someone that I am interested in finding out about products either my home phone number or my cell number, because I don’t have a phone number at market.

If you look at PizzaHog’s Reply 309 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg134692.html#msg134692  you will see that he said his unconfirmed, but considered reliable source indicates Cloverleaf uses a brick cheese that can be found at Roselli’s, but only in 40 lb. blocks.  The price of that brick cheese probably has gone up since PizzaHog‘s post though.  PizzaHog said it froze well, but is quite mild and lacks the zip of white cheddar.  If you look though the Buddy’s thread and see what else PizzaHog says, you will see he says the taste of Buddy’s pizza is different in the taste of the cheese since awhile ago.  You could call Roselli’s also to see if they would ship you a 40 lb. block of brick cheese to try.  I had thought of doing that, but didn’t.  I sure don’t really know, but would think different Detroit style pizza businesses use the same brick cheese.

If you noticed I am using AMPI mild white cheddar in combination with two mozzarellas.  In my opinion those cheeses taste almost like different brick cheeses I have tried including Eddie‘s brick cheese, oil off about the same and also make those delicious tasty caramelized edges.  I don’t know about what you want to do or want to try, but I really don’t think it is necessary to have brick cheese unless you really want to be authentic in your Buddy’s clone pizzas.

I know I don’t have enough space to store a pallet of brick cheese and if I can’t obtain any of the brick cheese from Foremost Farms I am happy with what I am using now.   

As far as having a page where all the prices are, I can tell you prices do vary all the time for flours and cheeses and can vary a lot in one week to the next week.   I guess you saw my post about the coarse grind pepperoni too, that it all would depend on how much I would purchase as to the price I would be charged.  Big time pizza businesses have better price leveraging powers. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1301 on: January 24, 2013, 10:02:27 PM »
Gene,

A follow up post if you didn’t see my other post about the Foremost Farms brick cheese I called about at Reply 205 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg222298.html#msg222298  That is a heck of a lot of brick cheese.  :-D

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1302 on: January 25, 2013, 08:31:08 AM »
Gene,

I was thinking about your question about prices for flours and cheeses.  Recently I found out my distributor for flour http://www.conolt.com/categories.asp?ID=1 and C.O. Nolt & Sons, Inc. website http://www.conolt.com/  does sell to individuals.  I found that out from Steve (Ev) that called them to set up an account.  They told Steve an account isn’t needed to purchase their products.  I had thought an account was needed because my husband and I had purchased from them for many years for another food business we had owned and we did create an account back then.  Maybe you could try calling around in your area to see if an account needs to be created.  Some places do have cash and carry and maybe you might need to call ahead to order a product.  If you live in NY I am sure there are many places that flours and cheeses can be purchased with an account.  Some of the larger distributors you might have to watch out for though.  They can start low in price and then jump the price on you.  Also you might need a larger minimum order.  I read about that on PMQ think tank different times.  I am lucky that my regular distributors for my sauces and cheeses, etc. http://hometownprovisions.net/ and their products http://hometownprovisions.net/products/ do deliver to me in small quantities of whatever I want.  They only charge me a 3.00 delivery fee for any amount of products I order and I sure couldn’t drive there and pick-up products for that amount of money.

Also if you are opening a pizzeria or another kind of food business many big cheese and flour companies would send a sample to try if they know you are opening a food business.  I did get samples of Power flour and Mondako flour at one time plus samples for other products.

Norma
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Offline gschwim

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1303 on: January 25, 2013, 12:08:04 PM »
Gene,

That would be a major task, and one that I do not have time to undertake, especially as a home pizza maker without any professional aspirations. Also, I think that you will find that prices of flours vary all over the place, and are negotiated with foodservice providers and wholesalers.

Peter

Peter,

Yes, it probably was too much to hope for.  But it would be wonderful if the flour industry could do something similar to what the beef industry does:  http://www.beefretail.org/wholesalepriceupdate.aspx

Ah, well...

Gene

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1304 on: January 25, 2013, 12:17:10 PM »
Gene,

I can find out how much a pallet of brick cheese costs from Foremost Farms, but think you also can do that if you want to.  I have called many places and not one of them questioned whether I really own a pizzeria or not.  They just take my word for if I have a pizza business.  I can only give someone that I am interested in finding out about products either my home phone number or my cell number, because I don’t have a phone number at market.

If you look at PizzaHog’s Reply 309 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg134692.html#msg134692  you will see that he said his unconfirmed, but considered reliable source indicates Cloverleaf uses a brick cheese that can be found at Roselli’s, but only in 40 lb. blocks.  The price of that brick cheese probably has gone up since PizzaHog‘s post though.  PizzaHog said it froze well, but is quite mild and lacks the zip of white cheddar.  If you look though the Buddy’s thread and see what else PizzaHog says, you will see he says the taste of Buddy’s pizza is different in the taste of the cheese since awhile ago.  You could call Roselli’s also to see if they would ship you a 40 lb. block of brick cheese to try.  I had thought of doing that, but didn’t.  I sure don’t really know, but would think different Detroit style pizza businesses use the same brick cheese.

If you noticed I am using AMPI mild white cheddar in combination with two mozzarellas.  In my opinion those cheeses taste almost like different brick cheeses I have tried including Eddie‘s brick cheese, oil off about the same and also make those delicious tasty caramelized edges.  I don’t know about what you want to do or want to try, but I really don’t think it is necessary to have brick cheese unless you really want to be authentic in your Buddy’s clone pizzas.

I know I don’t have enough space to store a pallet of brick cheese and if I can’t obtain any of the brick cheese from Foremost Farms I am happy with what I am using now.   

As far as having a page where all the prices are, I can tell you prices do vary all the time for flours and cheeses and can vary a lot in one week to the next week.   I guess you saw my post about the coarse grind pepperoni too, that it all would depend on how much I would purchase as to the price I would be charged.  Big time pizza businesses have better price leveraging powers. 

Norma

Norma,

No problem.  I thought you were calling Foremost Farms, anyway and that it would be just one more question, but maybe I misunderstood.  I certainly didn't want to put you to any extra trouble.

The problem for me is, living in NYC, I expect New York to have everything and through my real estate business, I have food operator friends/customers, who can get me a block of cheese, or really just about anything (by adding one or two items to their regular orders) whenever I want, and I also accompany one of them to Restaurant Depot (in NJ) occasionally.

But so far, no brick cheese!  I happened to be visiting one of my customers at the exact moment when their "cheese guy" arrived with a delivery.  I asked him about brick cheese; neither he nor my customer had ever heard of it.

Gene

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1305 on: January 25, 2013, 03:21:30 PM »
Norma,

No problem.  I thought you were calling Foremost Farms, anyway and that it would be just one more question, but maybe I misunderstood.  I certainly didn't want to put you to any extra trouble.

The problem for me is, living in NYC, I expect New York to have everything and through my real estate business, I have food operator friends/customers, who can get me a block of cheese, or really just about anything (by adding one or two items to their regular orders) whenever I want, and I also accompany one of them to Restaurant Depot (in NJ) occasionally.

But so far, no brick cheese!  I happened to be visiting one of my customers at the exact moment when their "cheese guy" arrived with a delivery.  I asked him about brick cheese; neither he nor my customer had ever heard of it.

Gene


Gene,

I did call Foremost Farms and am waiting for a return call again.  I don’t think if the man returns my call if will help me though, because the Foremost Farms brick cheese has to be purchased in large amounts.  Maybe if you call Foremost Farms they might know of a distributor of brick cheese in or around NYC. 

Another option for you if you want to try it would be to go to Schiff’s Cash & Carry 3410 N. Main Avenue Scranton, Pa. 18508.  That should be about 2hrs. 30 minutes from you.  This is Schiff’s website.  http://www.myschiffs.com/index.php  Schiff’s carries the Great Lakes brick cheese (Eddie’s) that I had tried and really liked.   You could also call Great Lakes to see if they sell any of their brick cheese in the NYC area.  If you are interested I did Reply at 461 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg225240.html#msg225240  about Schiff’s and Great Lakes.

If you wanted to you could also try the AMPI mild white cheddar and a blend of mozzarellas like I am using for my Buddy’s clone pizzas.  You should know if those combination of cheeses taste like a Buddy’s pizza if you did an experiment.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1306 on: January 25, 2013, 03:23:59 PM »
I received the Stanislaus Super Dolce Super Sweet-Super Heavy Pizza Sauce today to try on the Buddy‘s clone pizzas. 

Laura Bastian has spent some time all over the world-from Hong Kong to Boston-but one of her favorite place is Buddy’s pizza.  Laura says this in the article: “When I’m feeling cash-strapped, I stay in and order a pizza from Buddy’s. I’ve lived in both Chicago and New York City, but there’s nothing quite like a Detroit-style deep dish. Note that a Buddy’s pizza should always be accompanied by the signature antipasto salad“.

http://intelligenttravel.nationalgeographic.com/2013/01/16/i-heart-my-city-lauras-detroit/

Norma
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Offline Ev

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1307 on: January 25, 2013, 04:59:58 PM »
Norma, if you like that sauce, I'm pretty sure they carry it at Salino's in Reading.

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1308 on: January 25, 2013, 06:06:28 PM »
Gene,

I did call Foremost Farms and am waiting for a return call again.  I don’t think if the man returns my call if will help me though, because the Foremost Farms brick cheese has to be purchased in large amounts.  Maybe if you call Foremost Farms they might know of a distributor of brick cheese in or around NYC. 

Another option for you if you want to try it would be to go to Schiff’s Cash & Carry 3410 N. Main Avenue Scranton, Pa. 18508.  That should be about 2hrs. 30 minutes from you.  This is Schiff’s website.  http://www.myschiffs.com/index.php  Schiff’s carries the Great Lakes brick cheese (Eddie’s) that I had tried and really liked.   You could also call Great Lakes to see if they sell any of their brick cheese in the NYC area.  If you are interested I did Reply at 461 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg225240.html#msg225240  about Schiff’s and Great Lakes.

If you wanted to you could also try the AMPI mild white cheddar and a blend of mozzarellas like I am using for my Buddy’s clone pizzas.  You should know if those combination of cheeses taste like a Buddy’s pizza if you did an experiment.

Norma

Norma,

I just wrote to Schiff's.  Main issue for me is whether they deliver or will ship to NYC.  Like most New Yorkers, I don't have a car; don't know if I would rent one just for this purpose.

Where there's a will, there's a way, so I hope I'll figure something out.  In the meantime, how much different does brick cheese taste from mozzarella?  Provolone?  Cheddar?  Maybe one of those is close enough as is or maybe I can combine one or more of them to get something similar to brick cheese.

Gene


Gene

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1309 on: January 25, 2013, 08:58:55 PM »
Norma, if you like that sauce, I'm pretty sure they carry it at Salino's in Reading.

Steve,

Thanks for telling me you are pretty sure that they carry the Super Dolce at Salino's in Reading.  I quickly looked at Hometown Provisions, Inc. and didn't see it there.

Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1310 on: January 25, 2013, 09:50:38 PM »
Norma,

I just wrote to Schiff's.  Main issue for me is whether they deliver or will ship to NYC.  Like most New Yorkers, I don't have a car; don't know if I would rent one just for this purpose.

Where there's a will, there's a way, so I hope I'll figure something out.  In the meantime, how much different does brick cheese taste from mozzarella?  Provolone?  Cheddar?  Maybe one of those is close enough as is or maybe I can combine one or more of them to get something similar to brick cheese.

Gene



Gene,

I didn’t think about you living in NYC and not having a car.  I also believe in where they is a will, there’s a way.  It is hard to explain the flavor of the brick cheeses I have tried on this thread.  This is only my opinion, but the brick cheeses I have tried on this thread are something like a cross between a mild cheddar and a good brick mozzarella.  The brick cheese is softer than mild cheddars and softer than most mozzarellas to me.  The flavor of brick cheese when melted also has a buttery taste.  If you can’t get Schiff’s to deliver or ship to NYC, maybe you could just order one loaf of Eddie’s brick cheese from Mandi Cheese Shop http://www.mandifoods.com/shop/  to see if you think it tastes like the brick cheese on a Buddy’s pizza.  To me it does taste like the brick cheese Buddy’s is now using, but then I never tasted Buddy’s pizzas from years ago.  If you got a loaf of Eddie’s brick cheese and liked it on one of your Buddy’s clone pizzas then you could blend some mild cheddar and mozzarellas if you can’t obtain brick cheese in NYC.  If Steve sees this post he can comment on what he thinks the brick cheeses we have tasted on this thread are like in his opinion.  Jeff’s brick cheese and Widmer’s brick cheese were both also very good baked on a Buddy’s clone pizza. 

To explain something else that isn’t related to this thread, but it was a hunt for me in trying to find the right cheddar for the boardwalk thread which was a Mack’s pizza, that darn cheddar had me trying so many cheddars and I couldn’t ever get that cheddar exactly right.  I now have some Nasonville cheddar in my fridge and have been trying to age it for 3 months to try and get the right taste of the cheddar on a Mack’s pizza.  I can’t be exactly sure, but do believe Mack’s uses the Nasonville cheddar, but I believe it is aged at the distributor especially for Mack’s and Manco & Manco if that makes any sense to you.  I would try the Nasonville 3 month old aged cheddar on a Buddy’s pizza, but have been saving it for the boardwalk thread.  The Nasonville cheddar can be purchase in 1lb. at their online store, but Nasonville also distributes to distributors in 40 lb. blocks.  You wouldn’t believe the lengths I went to finding that right Nasonville cheddar.  I have been toying with going to NJ to a distributor that I believe distributes the Nasonville cheddar to Mack’s and Manco and Manco, so you can see what lengths I have gone to finding the right kind of cheddar for the boardwalk thread.     

To me the blend of AMPI mild white cheddar and one or two good mozzarellas almost tastes like brick cheese, or maybe even better than brick cheese when baked on the Buddy‘s clone pizzas.

Norma
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1311 on: January 25, 2013, 11:03:13 PM »

    

To me the blend of AMPI mild white cheddar and one or two good mozzarellas almost tastes like brick cheese, or maybe even better than brick cheese when baked on the Buddy‘s clone pizzas.

Norma
Now I don't want to get into any trouble here...but I'm wondering if perhaps mixing your cheddar with Munster(or adding it with one of the mozz and the cheddar) might not produce the "butteriness" you talked about Norma?
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1312 on: January 25, 2013, 11:24:39 PM »
Now I don't want to get into any trouble here...but I'm wondering if perhaps mixing your cheddar with Munster(or adding it with one of the mozz and the cheddar) might not produce the "butteriness" you talked about Norma?

Bob,

You won’t get into any trouble with suggesting something.  There are probably many mixtures, including Munster that could give good results with that buttery taste on a Buddy‘s clone pizza.  The AMPI mild white cheddar does give a buttery flavor when mixed with mozzarellas and does oil off.  I use mostly AMPI mild white cheddar spread around the edges and some on the middle of the Buddy’s clone pizzas I have been making.  I just spread the mozzarellas on the middle of the pizza and don’t use a lot of mozzarellas.

Thanks for your idea and if anyone want to try it they can report on the results.  The farmer’s cheese Steve brought to market on Tuesday also gave that buttery flavor.  The farmers cheese is also a fairly soft cheese. 

Norma
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Offline gschwim

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1313 on: January 26, 2013, 12:37:59 AM »
Bob,

You won’t get into any trouble with suggesting something.  There are probably many mixtures, including Munster that could give good results with that buttery taste on a Buddy‘s clone pizza.  The AMPI mild white cheddar does give a buttery flavor when mixed with mozzarellas and does oil off.  I use mostly AMPI mild white cheddar spread around the edges and some on the middle of the Buddy’s clone pizzas I have been making.  I just spread the mozzarellas on the middle of the pizza and don’t use a lot of mozzarellas.

Thanks for your idea and if anyone want to try it they can report on the results.  The farmer’s cheese Steve brought to market on Tuesday also gave that buttery flavor.  The farmers cheese is also a fairly soft cheese. 

Norma

Norma,

I'm thinking that if the brick cheese is similar to cheddar and I'm putting cheddar around the edges anyway, I might as well mix some in with the mozzarella.  It certainly can't hurt to try and besides, it's more important, I think, to make something that tastes good, than to duplicate some other recipe exactly.  Also, for me, the distinctiveness of Detroit style pizza has always been the lightness of the crust and the cheesy edges and not so much the cheese.

Gene


Gene

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1314 on: January 26, 2013, 08:40:16 AM »
Norma,

I'm thinking that if the brick cheese is similar to cheddar and I'm putting cheddar around the edges anyway, I might as well mix some in with the mozzarella.  It certainly can't hurt to try and besides, it's more important, I think, to make something that tastes good, than to duplicate some other recipe exactly.  Also, for me, the distinctiveness of Detroit style pizza has always been the lightness of the crust and the cheesy edges and not so much the cheese.

Gene


Gene,

In my opinion mild white cheddar cheese is similar to brick cheese, but if you try some brick cheese then you will know for yourself how similar it is.  I haven’t tasted Buddy’s pizzas years ago like you did, so maybe my opinion isn’t the best.  I tried just my mozzarellas earlier in this thread on a Buddy’s clone pizza without any mild white cheddar added.  The mozzarellas did caramelized well on the edges, but the same taste on the caramelized edges wasn’t there.  I don’t know what you want to try, but I only use the mild white cheddar on the edges and some in the middle of the dough.  Then I add not a lot of mozzarellas to the middle of the dough.  I think I am looking at this something like you are in that if I can’t obtain good brick cheese from any foodservice distributors in my area, then I will do the next best thing and not really make a Buddy’s clone with the right cheese.  I also agree that the lightness of crumb and those caramelized edges are what make this style of pizza special.  You might have access to some good mild white cheddars from foodservice distributors in 5 lb. loafs or even in 40 lb. blocks from some of your friends in NY.  Check around and see what you can find.  I was told by my foodservice distributor that a lot of pizzerias around my area do add some mild white cheddar to the blend of mozzarellas for a NY style of pizza in my area.  I don’t know about NYC though.  I tried a 40 lb. block of mild white cheddar from my foodservice provider for the boardwalk thread awhile ago, but that mild white cheddar didn’t have the same taste or didn’t melt as well as the AMPI mild white cheddar I now am using.  I just want you to be aware if you don’t already know it that even all foodservice cheddars don’t taste the same or melt as well on a pizza.  I even traveled to Bova Foods near Phila. to purchase a Nasonville mild white cheddar for the boardwalk thread and that 40 lb. block of cheddar really wasn't that good either.    

Norma
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 08:41:56 AM by norma427 »
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1315 on: January 26, 2013, 06:00:43 PM »
Gene,

In my opinion mild white cheddar cheese is similar to brick cheese, but if you try some brick cheese then you will know for yourself how similar it is.  I haven’t tasted Buddy’s pizzas years ago like you did, so maybe my opinion isn’t the best.  I tried just my mozzarellas earlier in this thread on a Buddy’s clone pizza without any mild white cheddar added.  The mozzarellas did caramelized well on the edges, but the same taste on the caramelized edges wasn’t there.  I don’t know what you want to try, but I only use the mild white cheddar on the edges and some in the middle of the dough.  Then I add not a lot of mozzarellas to the middle of the dough.  I think I am looking at this something like you are in that if I can’t obtain good brick cheese from any foodservice distributors in my area, then I will do the next best thing and not really make a Buddy’s clone with the right cheese.  I also agree that the lightness of crumb and those caramelized edges are what make this style of pizza special.  You might have access to some good mild white cheddars from foodservice distributors in 5 lb. loafs or even in 40 lb. blocks from some of your friends in NY.  Check around and see what you can find.  I was told by my foodservice distributor that a lot of pizzerias around my area do add some mild white cheddar to the blend of mozzarellas for a NY style of pizza in my area.  I don’t know about NYC though.  I tried a 40 lb. block of mild white cheddar from my foodservice provider for the boardwalk thread awhile ago, but that mild white cheddar didn’t have the same taste or didn’t melt as well as the AMPI mild white cheddar I now am using.  I just want you to be aware if you don’t already know it that even all foodservice cheddars don’t taste the same or melt as well on a pizza.  I even traveled to Bova Foods near Phila. to purchase a Nasonville mild white cheddar for the boardwalk thread and that 40 lb. block of cheddar really wasn't that good either.    

Norma

Thanks, Norma, I'm going to try your suggestion with the mild cheddar around the perimeter and a bit in the middle with some cheddar.
#
It's not so much a matter of finding ingredients for myself as for the cafe my partners and I are planning.  I want all the ingredients to be readily available from local suppliers, that can be delivered or picked up quickly if some last-minute need arrives, as opposed to relying on (and waiting for) deliveries from points distant.  And again, I won't be particularly concerned if I don't match a Buddy's pizza precisely, as long as what I come up with tastes good.  It might even be an advantage to come up with my own unique blend.

Finally, as long as I've got your attention (or anyone else who cares to comment), I want to try the famous "Pizzahog Reply 199" recipe, which says, in part, "Dissolve salt in water, add flour, sprinkle IDY on top.  Mix on lowest speed until incorporated then continue on this speed for a 8 min knead.  20 mins rest to relax then scrape into greased pan, spread, cover, rise..."

But the recipe doesn't say how long to let it rise.  One hour?  Less?  More?  Should the dough double?  Triple (as one recipe I read, said)?

My impression is that everyone is now using the Pizzahog recipe, but perhaps, I'm wrong.  Are there other recipes people are using?  I've been using a basic flour-water-salt-yeast mix with a 70% hydration, but I think I'm going to try a higher hydration tomorrow, with a pre-bake to see if that provides enough structure to hold up the toppings.  But maybe someone already tried that?  It would seem that the higher the hydration, the "airier" the crust, perhaps moving beyond focaccia, to something more like ciabatta.

Gene

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1316 on: January 26, 2013, 07:28:52 PM »
Thanks, Norma, I'm going to try your suggestion with the mild cheddar around the perimeter and a bit in the middle with some cheddar.
#
It's not so much a matter of finding ingredients for myself as for the cafe my partners and I are planning.  I want all the ingredients to be readily available from local suppliers, that can be delivered or picked up quickly if some last-minute need arrives, as opposed to relying on (and waiting for) deliveries from points distant.  And again, I won't be particularly concerned if I don't match a Buddy's pizza precisely, as long as what I come up with tastes good.  It might even be an advantage to come up with my own unique blend.

Finally, as long as I've got your attention (or anyone else who cares to comment), I want to try the famous "Pizzahog Reply 199" recipe, which says, in part, "Dissolve salt in water, add flour, sprinkle IDY on top.  Mix on lowest speed until incorporated then continue on this speed for a 8 min knead.  20 mins rest to relax then scrape into greased pan, spread, cover, rise..."

But the recipe doesn't say how long to let it rise.  One hour?  Less?  More?  Should the dough double?  Triple (as one recipe I read, said)?

My impression is that everyone is now using the Pizzahog recipe, but perhaps, I'm wrong.  Are there other recipes people are using?  I've been using a basic flour-water-salt-yeast mix with a 70% hydration, but I think I'm going to try a higher hydration tomorrow, with a pre-bake to see if that provides enough structure to hold up the toppings.  But maybe someone already tried that?  It would seem that the higher the hydration, the "airier" the crust, perhaps moving beyond focaccia, to something more like ciabatta.

Gene

Gene,

I can understand you want your ingredients readily available from local suppliers.  That is one reason I am not particularly worried about obtaining brick cheese, because no one I know of near me carries any of the brick cheese.   I also agree that I am not concerned if I can’t make a real Buddy’s clone as long as the pizza tastes good.  You are also right that it might be to your advantage to come up with you own unique blend of cheeses.  I would think since there are no Detroit style pizzas in NYC that I am aware of, if you make a decent Detroit style pizza you might do well.

I never tried Pizza Hog’s formulation at Reply 199 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg92963.html#msg92963 but other members have tried it with good success.  If you read that post of PizzaHog’s you can see he said the magic cheese was the white cheddar.  PizzaHog also comments in that post if the white cheddar is too sharp to add mozzarella, but only use white cheddar on the perimeter of the pan to create the all important caramelized cheese crust.  Maybe if you ask your question about how long to let the dough rise under the Buddy’s thread PizzaHog might see it and answer you.  I think you are correct that a lot of members are using PizzaHog’s recipe. 

I just stumbled upon the formulation I am now using from Trenton Bill.  That is how this thread started and then evolved into a reverse engineering cloning project.  I am staying with the formulation I am using now because I found out what works for me in a commercial environment.  If I started changing things now, I might be back to square one.  Some day I plan to try PizzaHog’s formulation because he is the member that really worked on a Buddy‘s clone pizza.  Two other formulations you might look at is the one Craig used at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21992.0.html  and the one Colonel_Klink used at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22235.0.html

Good luck and when you get started let us know how it is going for you.  What kind of flour are you using?

Norma
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Offline gschwim

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1317 on: January 26, 2013, 08:09:05 PM »
Gene,

I can understand you want your ingredients readily available from local suppliers.  That is one reason I am not particularly worried about obtaining brick cheese, because no one I know of near me carries any of the brick cheese.   I also agree that I am not concerned if I can’t make a real Buddy’s clone as long as the pizza tastes good.  You are also right that it might be to your advantage to come up with you own unique blend of cheeses.  I would think since there are no Detroit style pizzas in NYC that I am aware of, if you make a decent Detroit style pizza you might do well.

I never tried Pizza Hog’s formulation at Reply 199 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg92963.html#msg92963 but other members have tried it with good success.  If you read that post of PizzaHog’s you can see he said the magic cheese was the white cheddar.  PizzaHog also comments in that post if the white cheddar is too sharp to add mozzarella, but only use white cheddar on the perimeter of the pan to create the all important caramelized cheese crust.  Maybe if you ask your question about how long to let the dough rise under the Buddy’s thread PizzaHog might see it and answer you.  I think you are correct that a lot of members are using PizzaHog’s recipe.  

I just stumbled upon the formulation I am now using from Trenton Bill.  That is how this thread started and then evolved into a reverse engineering cloning project.  I am staying with the formulation I am using now because I found out what works for me in a commercial environment.  If I started changing things now, I might be back to square one.  Some day I plan to try PizzaHog’s formulation because he is the member that really worked on a Buddy‘s clone pizza.  Two other formulations you might look at is the one Craig used at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21992.0.html  and the one Colonel_Klink used at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22235.0.html

Good luck and when you get started let us know how it is going for you.  What kind of flour are you using?

Norma

Norma,

I'm trying various flours.  AP was good, then one of my customers gave me some All Trumps to try, which I did not like as much.  I also tried Italian Caputo 00 (in the red bag, available in 1kg. bags in NYC), which I liked, but it costs significantly more than American flour.  Tonight, I am trying Gold Medal Better for Bread, which I've liked for other pizzas and I wrote to General Mills to see if Better for Bread is available in 50 lb bags, wholesale.  One recipe I read on another site (http://goo.gl/zA4Tk) said, "bread flour (for a crispier crust) or all purpose flour (for a chewier crust)," so I think it will boil down to one or the other.  I have no particular preference yet for AP, but if I go with bread flour, then I'm pretty sure I'll want Better for Bread (or its 50 lb bag wholesale brand name if it's different).  If I can remember, I'll let you know when I've decided.

By the way, I tried the recipe I linked to above and thought it was pretty good and the one-hour rise was certainly convenient.

Regarding your dough recipe, sometimes recipes go through several iterations until someone comes up with "the" recipe, and there are 66 pages on this thread!  Are you using the recipe in the first post...

8.8 ounces flour
6 ¼ ounces water
½ teaspoon IDY
1 teaspoon salt

... or is there some later version?  Also, in the first post, you mention using Kyrol flour, but I understand that you now use Occident.  Is Occident an AP flour or a bread flour?

Gene
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 08:14:18 PM by gschwim »

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1318 on: January 27, 2013, 10:38:13 AM »
Norma,

I'm trying various flours.  AP was good, then one of my customers gave me some All Trumps to try, which I did not like as much.  I also tried Italian Caputo 00 (in the red bag, available in 1kg. bags in NYC), which I liked, but it costs significantly more than American flour.  Tonight, I am trying Gold Medal Better for Bread, which I've liked for other pizzas and I wrote to General Mills to see if Better for Bread is available in 50 lb bags, wholesale.  One recipe I read on another site (http://goo.gl/zA4Tk) said, "bread flour (for a crispier crust) or all purpose flour (for a chewier crust)," so I think it will boil down to one or the other.  I have no particular preference yet for AP, but if I go with bread flour, then I'm pretty sure I'll want Better for Bread (or its 50 lb bag wholesale brand name if it's different).  If I can remember, I'll let you know when I've decided.

By the way, I tried the recipe I linked to above and thought it was pretty good and the one-hour rise was certainly convenient.

Regarding your dough recipe, sometimes recipes go through several iterations until someone comes up with "the" recipe, and there are 66 pages on this thread!  Are you using the recipe in the first post...

8.8 ounces flour
6 ¼ ounces water
½ teaspoon IDY
1 teaspoon salt

... or is there some later version?  Also, in the first post, you mention using Kyrol flour, but I understand that you now use Occident.  Is Occident an AP flour or a bread flour?

Gene


Gene,

To answer your question about the recipe, there is no single recipe. How I arrived at where I am today took a few months of an evolving process. The reason for that is because of my unique situation at market. I have spoken about this before on the forum but since you may not have read about it, I am only allowed access to market on weekdays, starting at 8:00AM. I cannot go there or do anything there on weekends. I sell pizzas only on Tuesdays. Any pizza I sell at market has to be made using dough that was made at market, not outside. I can make experimental doughs at home and bring them to market and make pizzas out of them, as I have done on many occasions, but I cannot sell them. To complicate matters further, my stand is exposed to the elements. As a result, ambient temperatures over the course of a year can be from about 40 degrees to over 90 degrees. Because of this, I have had to learn how best to use my refrigerator, deli case and my humidity and temperature controlled Hatco unit to figure out how to keep the dough usable over the course of the day. As a  practical matter, all of the above has meant that I have to make my dough on a Friday, the following Monday or the following Tuesday when I sell pizzas.

When Peter and I felt that we had come up with a credible Buddy's clone dough, which is an "emergency" dough that can be made at room temperature and used in a few hours, I came to the conclusion that I wouldn't be able to easily use that dough at market since that would mean that I would have to get up really early in the morning to go to market and make the dough so that it would be usable about mid morning to make pizzas when customers would start placing orders. I also wasn't sure that I would be able to manage the dough so that it would hold out for most of the day. All of this led to a bunch of experiments to come up with a cold fermentation version of the Buddy's clone dough where the fermentation takes place overnight or up to 100 hours. Peter helped me with all of the experiments because I am not good at math and he knows how to change recipes to have them fit my particular situation. I did not post each recipe I used since in most cases the changes from one dough to another were minor, such as changing the amount of yeast, omitting salt (Peter thinks that there may be no salt in Buddy's dough), or changing the methods of making the dough or handling it. I am still trying to figure out a recipe that will be reliable enough to use at market.

There were so many recipes and so many changes in what I did that even I have a hard time remembering them all and hunting them down when I forget some of things I did or when other members ask me questions. What I usually do is to use the forum's search features. For example, if I want to find something that is on this thread, I use the search box at the top of the page (any page) of this thread. That almost always works but if not, I use the advanced search feature. Peter even made a thread on this subject and made it a sticky for members to refer to, including new members who are asked to read it when they become members. That thread is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3101.0.html. If you plan to do much on the Detroit style of pizza for a future business, you may want to use the forum's search features. If you can't find what you are looking for, then you might raise the questions. However, I think that at some point you may want to read this entire thread and also the Buddy's thread, as painful and time consuming as that might be. There is very little that has not been covered in those two threads about the Buddy's dough and pizzas. You might even find something that will work for your planned business or give you something to start with.

The Occident flour you asked about is a bleached and bromated flour that is from Conagra. It has a protein content of 12.2% (Buddy's told me that). That is somewhere between an all-purpose flour and a bread flour. The Kyrol flour is a high gluten flour with a much higher protein content. We don't know if Buddy's is using the Occident flour, only that the flour that they are using is bromated and has a protein content of 12.2%.

This is what I am currently using for a formulation for a Buddy‘s clone dough for a one day cold ferment.

TF 0.1218
Flour 100% Occident bromated
Hydration 71.023%
IDY 0.80%
Salt 1.75% Kosher salt
Bowl residue compensation 2.0%

A final dough temperature is about around 75 degrees F.

9.5 ounces dough ball for a 4-square steel pan
19 ounces dough ball for a 8-square steel pan

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1319 on: January 27, 2013, 11:57:41 AM »
Peter,

I want to ask you a question about the Buddy’s clone dough.  We have a winter storm advisory in our area for storm Luna for tomorrow.  There are supposed to be icy conditions with dangerous roads in our area.  I called Jim and asked him if I could make my doughs today.  He said he would turn off the alarms for me so I can make my doughs.  I will just reduce the amount of IDY for the Lehmann dough, but I am somewhat confused on what to do for the Buddy’s clone dough.  What I wanted to ask is if you think I try for a lower dough temperature for a two day cold ferment?  The weather in our area is supposed to be 51 degrees F on Tuesday so I really don’t want to miss out on making my doughs and final pizzas if I don‘t have to.

Norma
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