Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!

[gschwim]

Gene,

To answer your question about the recipe, there is no single recipe. How I arrived at where I am today took a few months of an evolving process. The reason for that is because of my unique situation at market. I have spoken about this before on the forum but since you may not have read about it, I am only allowed access to market on weekdays, starting at 8:00AM. I cannot go there or do anything there on weekends. I sell pizzas only on Tuesdays. Any pizza I sell at market has to be made using dough that was made at market, not outside. I can make experimental doughs at home and bring them to market and make pizzas out of them, as I have done on many occasions, but I cannot sell them. To complicate matters further, my stand is exposed to the elements. As a result, ambient temperatures over the course of a year can be from about 40 degrees to over 90 degrees. Because of this, I have had to learn how best to use my refrigerator, deli case and my humidity and temperature controlled Hatco unit to figure out how to keep the dough usable over the course of the day. As a  practical matter, all of the above has meant that I have to make my dough on a Friday, the following Monday or the following Tuesday when I sell pizzas.

When Peter and I felt that we had come up with a credible Buddy's clone dough, which is an "emergency" dough that can be made at room temperature and used in a few hours, I came to the conclusion that I wouldn't be able to easily use that dough at market since that would mean that I would have to get up really early in the morning to go to market and make the dough so that it would be usable about mid morning to make pizzas when customers would start placing orders. I also wasn't sure that I would be able to manage the dough so that it would hold out for most of the day. All of this led to a bunch of experiments to come up with a cold fermentation version of the Buddy's clone dough where the fermentation takes place overnight or up to 100 hours. Peter helped me with all of the experiments because I am not good at math and he knows how to change recipes to have them fit my particular situation. I did not post each recipe I used since in most cases the changes from one dough to another were minor, such as changing the amount of yeast, omitting salt (Peter thinks that there may be no salt in Buddy's dough), or changing the methods of making the dough or handling it. I am still trying to figure out a recipe that will be reliable enough to use at market.

There were so many recipes and so many changes in what I did that even I have a hard time remembering them all and hunting them down when I forget some of things I did or when other members ask me questions. What I usually do is to use the forum's search features. For example, if I want to find something that is on this thread, I use the search box at the top of the page (any page) of this thread. That almost always works but if not, I use the advanced search feature. Peter even made a thread on this subject and made it a sticky for members to refer to, including new members who are asked to read it when they become members. That thread is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3101.0.html. If you plan to do much on the Detroit style of pizza for a future business, you may want to use the forum's search features. If you can't find what you are looking for, then you might raise the questions. However, I think that at some point you may want to read this entire thread and also the Buddy's thread, as painful and time consuming as that might be. There is very little that has not been covered in those two threads about the Buddy's dough and pizzas. You might even find something that will work for your planned business or give you something to start with.

The Occident flour you asked about is a bleached and bromated flour that is from Conagra. It has a protein content of 12.2% (Buddy's told me that). That is somewhere between an all-purpose flour and a bread flour. The Kyrol flour is a high gluten flour with a much higher protein content. We don't know if Buddy's is using the Occident flour, only that the flour that they are using is bromated and has a protein content of 12.2%.

This is what I am currently using for a formulation for a Buddy‘s clone dough for a one day cold ferment.

TF 0.1218
Flour 100% Occident bromated
Hydration 71.023%
IDY 0.80%
Salt 1.75% Kosher salt
Bowl residue compensation 2.0%

A final dough temperature is about around 75 degrees F.

9.5 ounces dough ball for a 4-square steel pan
19 ounces dough ball for a 8-square steel pan

Norma

Wow, Norma, they should give you combat pay for what they make you go through, just to sell pizzas.  It sounds like one of those Food Channel cooking contests, where the contestants are not allowed to bring any pre-made items, but must create everything on-site, from scratch - except I suspect that there's not much chance of someone handing you a giant $10,000 check at the end...

Adding your dough recipe to the "mix," it seems that all the recipes are basically flour, salt, yeast and water with about a 70% hydration.  But now that I know the conditions in which you have to work, I definitely suggest you try the recipe I linked to before (http://goo.gl/zA4Tk) - or, on second thought, the main difference seems to be the amount of yeast, so maybe if you just increase the yeast in your own recipe to the equivalent of a 1/4 oz. packet of IDY to 500 g of flour (1.4%?).  At normal room temperature, the dough doubled in just 1 hour.  But regarding the linked-to recipe, which includes sugar and olive oil, the author says that her " dad, Buddy’s pizza aficionado, has approved" it.

Gene

[Pete-zza]

I want to ask you a question about the Buddy’s clone dough.  We have a winter storm advisory in our area for storm Luna for tomorrow.  There are supposed to be icy conditions with dangerous roads in our area.  I called Jim and asked him if I could make my doughs today.  He said he would turn off the alarms for me so I can make my doughs.  I will just reduce the amount of IDY for the Lehmann dough, but I am somewhat confused on what to do for the Buddy’s clone dough.  What I wanted to ask is if you think I try for a lower dough temperature for a two day cold ferment?  The weather in our area is supposed to be 51 degrees F on Tuesday so I really don’t want to miss out on making my doughs and final pizzas if I don‘t have to.

Norma,

Can you tell me when you would be making the dough at market today and when you would want to use the dough on Tuesday? It may well be better to make the dough in the same way you usually do in terms of finished dough temperature and lower the amount of yeast (IDY) instead, and then rely on your equipment at market to control when you actually use the dough.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Can you tell me when you would be making the dough at market today and when you would want to use the dough on Tuesday? It may well be better to make the dough in the same way you usually do in terms of finished dough temperature and lower the amount of yeast (IDY) instead, and then rely on your equipment at market to control when you actually use the dough.

Peter

   

Peter,

I am at market now.  I didn't figure out a formulation for a lower amount of yeast. 

Norma

[norma427]

Peter,

Sorry I bothered you with that question on such short notice.  The dough is made now.

Norma

[norma427]

Wow, Norma, they should give you combat pay for what they make you go through, just to sell pizzas.  It sounds like one of those Food Channel cooking contests, where the contestants are not allowed to bring any pre-made items, but must create everything on-site, from scratch - except I suspect that there's not much chance of someone handing you a giant $10,000 check at the end...

Adding your dough recipe to the "mix," it seems that all the recipes are basically flour, salt, yeast and water with about a 70% hydration.  But now that I know the conditions in which you have to work, I definitely suggest you try the recipe I linked to before (http://goo.gl/zA4Tk) - or, on second thought, the main difference seems to be the amount of yeast, so maybe if you just increase the yeast in your own recipe to the equivalent of a 1/4 oz. packet of IDY to 500 g of flour (1.4%?).  At normal room temperature, the dough doubled in just 1 hour.  But regarding the linked-to recipe, which includes sugar and olive oil, the author says that her " dad, Buddy’s pizza aficionado, has approved" it.

Gene

Gene,

This is the way it has been at market since I started almost four years ago in not exactly knowing what to do.  I have become accustomed to it somewhat, but still there are problems and that is why I ask so many questions for different experiments or when I am trying to make a new style of pizza that I might want to offer at market.. 

I would have tried you recipe if I hadn’t started this thread and went though all these experiments to get to where I am now.  These experiments have taken us about 3 months now to have a decent workable dough and pizza for my conditions I have to work in.  As we know from the Buddy’s thread and this thread Buddy’s doesn’t use any sugar or oil in their doughs, so that bloggers recipe isn’t really authentic.  I did go by volume measurements from my friend Trenton Bill, but don’t like to usually test out recipes for pizzas that way.  Trenton Bill just told me he had made a really good Sicilian pizza, but at first didn’t tell me it was from the Buddy’s thread.  That is why I tried his recipe in volume measurements.  There are just too many problems with errors in not using baker’s percents.  If you are happy with that recipe then you can use it and if anyone other member wants to try they can.  I figure since I have been though all of these experiments and Peter has helped me to get to where I am now, why mess with something that doesn’t need fixed in my opinion, unless I find more problems along the way.

I sure don’t know (and hope you don‘t), but think you might also run into some problems when trying to take a recipe and trying to repeat it in volume instead of making one or a few Detroit style pizzas if you decide to offer Detroit style pizza to real customers.  It is a lot different for me in trying to make a few dough balls and then trying to make many that will last through out a 12 hr. day.  Since this is a higher hydration dough that also can cause some problems.  I am not sure about the food laws in NYC, but in our area they are fairly strict at what can be done and what cannot be done.  Food inspectors do inspect my little pizza stand and I had to go though a food course and pass a test. 

Norma

[norma427]

The Buddy’s clone dough final temperature was 65.3 degrees F when it was mixed.  I did use cooler water because I wasn’t sure what to do.  I used a little less yeast than the formulation called for, but since I was at market and only had a limited amount of time that I was allowed to be there today, I didn’t have the time to use the expanded dough calculation tool on my cell phone to reduce the yeast to where it might have needed to be.  I did mix the dough differently this time and let it rest 15 minutes in the mixer bowl and then mixed again for awhile, but didn’t mix as aggressively as last week when no salt was added.  The dough didn’t feel sticky and didn’t stick to my fingers at all.  The  dough also balled well after being scaled.  Hopefully the Buddy’s clone dough balls will work out okay on Tuesday.  I didn’t have time to grate my cheeses today or do other things that needed done.  If the weather turns out better than expected tomorrow, then I will go to market and check on the dough balls and also do the other things I need to do.  I did place the poppy seeds on the one dough ball to see how much the dough ball ferments until Tuesday.

Norma 

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

As you know, it is hard to hurt a dough with a fair amount of yeast, and using a pan makes it fairly easy to handle a high hydration dough, even one that is highly fermented. Also, in your case, you have both your refrigeration equipment and your Hatco unit to help control the dough temperature. What remains to be seen is whether the dough is ready to make pizzas by mid-morning on Tuesday.

It's hard to believe that you have been at market for almost four years.

Peter

[gschwim]

Gene,

This is the way it has been at market since I started almost four years ago in not exactly knowing what to do.  I have become accustomed to it somewhat, but still there are problems and that is why I ask so many questions for different experiments or when I am trying to make a new style of pizza that I might want to offer at market..  

I would have tried you recipe if I hadn’t started this thread and went though all these experiments to get to where I am now.  These experiments have taken us about 3 months now to have a decent workable dough and pizza for my conditions I have to work in.  As we know from the Buddy’s thread and this thread Buddy’s doesn’t use any sugar or oil in their doughs, so that bloggers recipe isn’t really authentic.  I did go by volume measurements from my friend Trenton Bill, but don’t like to usually test out recipes for pizzas that way.  Trenton Bill just told me he had made a really good Sicilian pizza, but at first didn’t tell me it was from the Buddy’s thread.  That is why I tried his recipe in volume measurements.  There are just too many problems with errors in not using baker’s percents.  If you are happy with that recipe then you can use it and if anyone other member wants to try they can.  I figure since I have been though all of these experiments and Peter has helped me to get to where I am now, why mess with something that doesn’t need fixed in my opinion, unless I find more problems along the way.

I sure don’t know (and hope you don‘t), but think you might also run into some problems when trying to take a recipe and trying to repeat it in volume instead of making one or a few Detroit style pizzas if you decide to offer Detroit style pizza to real customers.  It is a lot different for me in trying to make a few dough balls and then trying to make many that will last through out a 12 hr. day.  Since this is a higher hydration dough that also can cause some problems.  I am not sure about the food laws in NYC, but in our area they are fairly strict at what can be done and what cannot be done.  Food inspectors do inspect my little pizza stand and I had to go though a food course and pass a test.  

Norma

Norma,

I understand.  I was just thinking that by keeping your recipe as is, except for increasing the amount of yeast, that everything would stay the same except that the dough, handled exactly as you handle it now, would rise faster and be ready to use sooner.  And once the dough has risen, you would use it the same way as you do now.  In other words, with more yeast, everything would happen the same way it does now, just sooner/faster.  But maybe I'm wrong?

Regarding the 12-hour day, with a one-hour rise, I would not have to keep dough for 12 hours - maybe two hours.  That's what my customers that offer New York pizza do:  At the same time pizzas are being baked and sold upstairs, guys downstairs are mixing and shaping fresh dough.  That way, they can handle varying order flow.  They don't have to keep enough dough for the "walk-in crowd" and estimate an additional amount in case they get a sudden delivery order of, say, 20 pizzas; they can fill the order and then tell one of the crew to mix some extra dough.  Basically, they start and end each day with zero mixed dough.

On your next trip, you might visit one of the 2 Brother's Pizza locations - not for the pizza, which is mediocre, but to see the operation.  They charge 99 cents for a plain slice and the pies just fly out the door.  The guy stretching the dough balls (a second guy adds sauce and cheese) creates an 18-inch "disk," literally, every 30 seconds, non-stop, all day.  No way they could make that much dough much more than an hour ahead of time.

Needless to say, I would love to have that problem in my own place!

Gene

[norma427]

Norma,

As you know, it is hard to hurt a dough with a fair amount of yeast, and using a pan makes it fairly easy to handle a high hydration dough, even one that is highly fermented. Also, in your case, you have both your refrigeration equipment and your Hatco unit to help control the dough temperature. What remains to be seen is whether the dough is ready to make pizzas by mid-morning on Tuesday.

It's hard to believe that you have been at market for almost four years.

Peter

Peter,

I did learn it is hard to hurt a dough with a fair amount of yeast and the pans also makes it easier to handle a high hydrations doughs.  I guess we will see if the dough is ready to make pizzas by mid-morning on Tuesday.  It is always a guessing game.  I used less IDY in that formulation than it called for and the only reason I didn’t drop it more was I wasn’t sure exactly what to do since I was trying for a lower final dough temperature.

I know the almost 4 years flew by fast for me.  I still remember those first few months though and everything I did wrong.   

Norma

[norma427]

Norma,

I understand.  I was just thinking that by keeping your recipe as is, except for increasing the amount of yeast, that everything would stay the same except that the dough, handled exactly as you handle it now, would rise faster and be ready to use sooner.  And once the dough has risen, you would use it the same way as you do now.  In other words, with more yeast, everything would happen the same way it does now, just sooner/faster.  But maybe I'm wrong?

Regarding the 12-hour day, with a one-hour rise, I would not have to keep dough for 12 hours - maybe two hours.  That's what my customers that offer New York pizza do:  At the same time pizzas are being baked and sold upstairs, guys downstairs are mixing and shaping fresh dough.  That way, they can handle varying order flow.  They don't have to keep enough dough for the "walk-in crowd" and estimate an additional amount in case they get a sudden delivery order of, say, 20 pizzas; they can fill the order and then tell one of the crew to mix some extra dough.  Basically, they start and end each day with zero mixed dough.

On your next trip, you might visit one of the 2 Brother's Pizza locations - not for the pizza, which is mediocre, but to see the operation.  They charge 99 cents for a plain slice and the pies just fly out the door.  The guy stretching the dough balls (a second guy adds sauce and cheese) creates an 18-inch "disk," literally, every 30 seconds, non-stop, all day.  No way they could make that much dough much more than an hour ahead of time.

Needless to say, I would love to have that problem in my own place!

Gene

Gene,

Using 0.80% IDY is working for me right now in a cold fermented dough for one day.  The dough in the steel pan does temper enough in my Hatco Unit in about 45 minutes, so really I don’t think that is a lot of time for it to rise before the bake.  My same dough has to last all day long, because I wouldn’t have time to mix doughs different times during the day or to do those dishes.  

I can see your point in making dough every two hours and that working out well and having extra members of a crew to help.  Yes, I think you are right that with more yeast things would happen faster.  

I don’t have the space or luxury of doing that though.  It is only Steve and me working and there are dishes to be done all the time, customers to wait on and give change to, slices to reheat, NY style dough balls to be opened and dressed and lots more stuff to do.  My stand has to be kept fairly neat, because there is no place to hid stuff.  My little pizza stand is only about 8’x13’ and all out in the open for everyone to see.  That is one reason I have been working on cold fermenting the dough and then using my Hatco Unit to temper the doughs in the steel pans.

The 2 Brother’s Pizza locations sounds interesting.  When I travel to NYC again, I will try to stop at one of their locations.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

We were recently discussing the matter of adjusting finished dough temperature rather than yeast quantity. Recently, while looking for something else, I came across an article by Tom Lehmann at Pizza Today that addresses this matter. It is in the first Q&A at http://www.pizzatoday.com/magazine/2011-november-dough-doctor#.UQev0Wt5mSN. The article also addresses the matter of letting dough balls rest for a while before refrigerating versus going directly to the cooler. It may well be that this is not a problem where the number of dough balls is not large enough to pose cooling problems.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

We were recently discussing the matter of adjusting finished dough temperature rather than yeast quantity. Recently, while looking for something else, I came across an article by Tom Lehmann at Pizza Today that addresses this matter. It is in the first Q&A at http://www.pizzatoday.com/magazine/2011-november-dough-doctor#.UQev0Wt5mSN. The article also addresses the matter of letting dough balls rest for a while before refrigerating versus going directly to the cooler. It may well be that this is not a problem where the number of dough balls is not large enough to pose cooling problems.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for referencing that article from Tom Lehmann.  I see he says not to reduce the amount of IDY because it worked, but created a whole new set of problems at the same time.  I wondered about if the Buddy’s clone dough would have enough lift (or rise) in the final bake if less yeast was used, especially since this type of pizza does needs that final lift after the tempering period and the Buddy‘s clone dough after tempering is fragile.  I also wondered since I am doing a two day cold fermented dough balls what effects there will be from that.  You are right though maybe this might not pose a problem where the number of dough balls are not large enough to pose a cooling problem.

I didn’t go over to market yesterday to check on my dough balls in the steel pans.  I just have to grate my cheeses and do a few other things this morning.  I could have gone over to market a little later in the afternoon to check after the weather became better, but thought I wouldn’t have time to mix all my doughs over again, so what happens today will be interesting. 

On another note, I think I found out why my experimental Lehmann dough balls were almost over fermenting for the last two weeks.  I had thought because I left them at room temperature for awhile, that might be why they wanted to almost overferment.  I really don’t think the room temperature affected them that much, but can’t be sure.  I found the bottom of my pizza prep fridge really wasn’t down enough in temperature after fooling around with it for awhile.  I played around with the knob and before I left market on Sunday the temperature was at 40 degrees F, but I wasn’t sure it was going to stay that way, so I loaded the Lehmann dough balls and all the Buddy’s clone dough balls in the deli case.  I had a tough time fitting them all in there, but I did.

Norma     

[norma427]

I was glad today that the two day cold fermented Buddy’s clone dough balls worked out well from morning until this evening in making Buddy’ clone pizzas.  I had 11 Buddy’s clone dough balls in steel pans and when they were made into pizzas they all sold all today.  I know 11 pizzas isn’t a lot, but that is more than any of my other experimental pizzas sold before when I was trying to introduce them.     

These are only the pictures of the first two Buddy’s clone pizzas made today.  The first picture is how much the spacing of the poppy seeds changed until this morning.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I'm glad to hear that the two-day cold fermented Buddy's clone dough worked out so well for you and lasted throughout the entire day. FYI, the spacing of the poppy seeds suggests an increase in the volume of the dough by about 350%.

Have you and/or Steve noticed much of a difference between pizzas made with a Buddy's emergency clone dough as opposed to ones made with a cold-fermented Buddy's clone dough? And, if so, what were the differences?

It is also good to hear that you sold out your entire production of the Detroit style pizzas. Given the small space you work in, and your limited equipment (refrigeration and the Hatco unit), are there practical limits as to how many pans you can use in your work area?

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I'm glad to hear that the two-day cold fermented Buddy's clone dough worked out so well for you and lasted throughout the entire day. FYI, the spacing of the poppy seeds suggests an increase in the volume of the dough by about 350%.

Have you and/or Steve noticed much of a difference between pizzas made with a Buddy's emergency clone dough as opposed to ones made with a cold-fermented Buddy's clone dough? And, if so, what were the differences?

It is also good to hear that you sold out your entire production of the Detroit style pizzas. Given the small space you work in, and your limited equipment (refrigeration and the Hatco unit), are there practical limits as to how many pans you can use in your work area?

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for figuring out that the spacing of the poppy seeds and telling me the poppy seeds suggest an increase in volume of the dough by about 350%.  How much is 350%?  Does that mean it increased by triple and then some?

I don’t think Steve and I have noticed much of a difference between the pizzas made with a Buddy’s clone emergency dough clone doughs as opposed to one made with a cold-fermented Buddy’s clone doughs.  We only got to taste one of the Buddy’s clone pizzas from today(that was only one slice).  Steve had brought a different brick cheese along to try on one of the doughs, but we didn’t have any dough balls left to try that new brick cheese.  I think it is the taste of the blends of cheeses, the light crumb, the caramelized edges and the crisp bottom crust that makes this type of pizzas so special.  At least Steve didn’t complain today that the crust tasted bland.    Steve can comment if he thinks he noticed any differences between a emergency dough Buddy’s clone pizzas, or a cold-fermented dough Buddy’s clone pizzas. 

There are practical limits as how many steel pans I can store in my deli case or my pizza prep fridge.  I have to try some more Buddy’s clone dough balls in plastic bags.  I only tried one Buddy’s clone dough ball like that last week and then put it directly in a steel pan and then tempered it in the Hatco Unit.  That worked out fine, but am not sure how that would work all the time.  Two different times we had 3 Buddy’s clone pizzas in the top deck of the oven at one time.  That also seemed to work well.  I think 6 pans could fit in the top deck at one time, but am not sure.  This style of pizza doesn’t seem to need to be rotated like a NY style pizza.  Steve told me today to stop making my Lehmann dough pizzas and my Greek style pizzas and just make Detroit style pizzas.  I said I am not ready to do that because customers still do like those style of pizzas also.  I am not sure what my limits are on making 3 styles of pizzas though.  The Hatco Unit does help a lot.

Norma     

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Yes, the poppy seed spacing suggested a tripling of the dough and then some.

Do you think that you could sell more Detroit style pizzas if you had the capacity?

I'd be curious to know what comments your customers have been offering up about the Buddy's clone pizzas.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Do you think that you could sell more Detroit style pizzas if you had the capacity?

I'd be curious to know what comments your customers have been offering up about the Buddy's clone pizzas.

Peter

Peter,

It is yet to be seen if I can sell more Detroit style pizzas if I have the capacity to store more dough balls.  This is my slower time of the year, so possibly I will be able to sell more Detroit style pizzas when the weather gets warmer in our area, or if word of mouth gets me more customers.  More customers come to market when the weather gets warmer and also more tourists, so I will have to wait and see what happens.

Everyone that has tried the Buddy’s clone pizzas have really liked them so far.  I have even gotten new customers that are coming back each week for either one slice or some are taking about 3 slices home to reheat.  From what everyone has been telling Steve and me is that they never tasted a pizza like the Detroit style pizzas I am trying to sell.  Customers have been asking what kind of cheese is on those Detroit style pizzas and Steve and I have been telling them, but today Steve and I decided we aren’t going to tell anyone anymore what kind of cheese blend we are using.  Steve and I talked about if a pizza operator wanted to also make this style of pizza and we don’t want to give too much information anymore because then they also might want to try to sell this style of pizza.  Many customers do ask what a Detroit style of pizza is.  Most customers do want the squares that have more caramelized edges because they really like those.  This style of pizza also reheats very fast and keeps longer in the heated humidified cabinet.  We did have some customers today waiting for Buddy’s clone pizzas to come out of the oven.  I sure don’t know, but think this style of pizza takes a lot of timing to figure out how to have this style coming out of the oven all the time.  I guess I will learn more after I make more of this style of pizza on how to become faster.  Also customers are asking for different dressings and it is hard to keep getting them coming out of the oven in time for when they want them.  There have been pretty many customers that have told me and Steve that this is the best style of pizza I have made.  There are lots of other comments that I find interesting.  Who would have ever thought that maybe this style of pizza would take off in our area.  I sure didn’t and never even would have thought of trying to offer this style of pizza in our area.  

Norma

[Chicago Bob]

I'm not surprised with your success there of the Detroit style at market Norma. Congrats, run with it....
Bob

[norma427]

I'm not surprised with your success there of the Detroit style at market Norma. Congrats, run with it....
Bob

Bob,

Thanks, but I will have to wait and see what happens.  If too many customers want this style of pizza I don't know how I will keep up, or if I will have enough room to store the dough balls.  I am glad customers are liking the Detroit style of pizzas though.  It is fun to watch customers faces after they have taken a few bites of a slice.

Norma