Author Topic: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 159958 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1360 on: February 02, 2013, 10:03:45 PM »
Norma,

That is entirely up to you. However, it might make for a reasonable test of whether 0.50% IDY is a good value to use.

Peter

Peter,

I will mix a Buddy’s clone dough with 0.50% IDY tomorrow.  I would like to see if things would work out with 0.50% IDY for a two-day cold ferment.  My home fridge is fairly cold in temperature. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1361 on: February 03, 2013, 07:33:18 PM »
I mixed a Buddy’s clone dough with 0.50% IDY this afternoon for a two-day cold ferment.  The final dough temperature was 73.9 degrees F.  I used the same method for mixing that I did at market last week.  I mixed then rested for 15 minutes then mixed again. 

Part of the print out sheet is on the second picture.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1362 on: February 04, 2013, 09:14:23 AM »
This is how much the poppy seed spacings changed until this morning.  I am not going to take the dough ball out of the plastic container until tomorrow when I will then spread it in the steel pan and then temper it.  I figure if I try to take the dough ball out of the plastic container I might mess with the poppy seeds.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1363 on: February 04, 2013, 06:17:07 PM »
I purchased the chef in the first picture at the HomeGoods Store on Friday night for a decent price.  I am going to make a little Detroit style pizza to set on his tray out of plaster gauze.  I might also make a mask for myself out of the plaster gauze.  I still have a lot of plaster gauze leftover from projects with my granddaughter from a long while ago.   The chef is fairly big.  I think he is cute.  I wonder what I should name him.  Any ideas?

The Buddy’s clone dough is getting easier to mix.  I only had to mix on speed one and two again and there was a 15 minutes rest period like last week.  The dough feels strong after the second mix and it isn’t sticky anymore after the mix. The first picture of the dough was after the first mix, before the rest period.  It can be seen on the other picture how the doughs looks after the second mix and how it isn’t as sticky.  I think the rest period helps that Peter told me to try.  The other pizza chef’s rear end can be seen in the picture with the pans.  I had him for awhile.

I am now only barely putting shortening on my steel pans.  It can be seen that my first steel pans still don’t look like they are seasoned right, but they don’t stick on the bottom after the bake.

It is supposed to snow in our area tonight so I didn’t want to make more Buddy’s clone dough balls this week because who knows what will happen tomorrow.  I don’t know if the couple that usually purchases Detroit style slices from me each week will be at market tomorrow, but they came and purchased 3 Detroit style pizzas last week for the Super Bowl.  I told them I wasn’t prepared in experimenting to see if Detroit style pizzas could be frozen because I had not tried that yet.  They had told me they would call me if they wanted to try to freeze some Detroit style pizzas, but said they had forgot to call me ahead of time.  They still wanted to purchase 3 Detroit style pizzas and try to freeze them themselves.  The couple said they would tell me how that worked out.  I told them to wrap the pizzas in aluminum foil or plastic wrap and then freeze.  I also gave them instructions something like Buddy’s pizza gave me for the reheat.  I told the couple to first defrost in the fridge.  They had purchased a 8-square pepperoni and cheese and 2 4-square cheese Detroit style pizzas.  The lady told me they will have them for Super Bowl unless her husband decided to eat them before the Super Bowl.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1364 on: February 04, 2013, 06:22:40 PM »
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1365 on: February 04, 2013, 06:43:47 PM »
The chef is fairly big.  I think he is cute.  I wonder what I should name him.  Any ideas?
Norma,

I would perhaps name him Gus, after Gus Guerra, who started the whole Detroit style pizza phenomenon at Buddy's. That name could serve as an intro into what the Detroit style pizza is should anyone ask about the name or if you work it into the discussion. The photo below is of Gus Guerra's son and his sister Marie.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 09:21:00 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1366 on: February 04, 2013, 07:04:08 PM »
Norma,

I would perhaps name him Gus, after Gus Guerra (photo below), who started the whole Detroit style pizza phenomenon at Buddy's. That name could serve as an intro into what the Detroit style pizza is should anyone ask about the name or if you work it into the discussion.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the picture of Gus Guerra.  I never saw a picture of Gus Guerra before.  That is a great name for what I will call the chef (now Gus).  ;D I have had many customers, or potential customers ask me what a Detroit style pizza is, so that will also give me a good introduction for people that might ask me about Detroit style pizzas.  Hopefully someone that has tasted Buddy’s pizza will come and taste some of my Detroit style pizzas someday.  I would be interested in knowing if my Buddy’s clones taste anything like the real thing.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1367 on: February 04, 2013, 07:28:12 PM »
The Buddy’s clone dough is getting easier to mix.  I only had to mix on speed one and two again and there was a 15 minutes rest period like last week.  The dough feels strong after the second mix and it isn’t sticky anymore after the mix. The first picture of the dough was after the first mix, before the rest period.  It can be seen on the other picture how the doughs looks after the second mix and how it isn’t as sticky.  I think the rest period helps that Peter told me to try.
Norma,

It does indeed look like the rest period helped the hydration of the dough. Maybe we hit upon what "double kneading" really means. If that is what Buddy's uses, then it's possible that Buddy's is using a hydration value that is greater than what you have been using. If so, that might allow even relatively unskilled workers make the dough. Maybe sometime you can try testing a higher hydration value, along with a rest period, of course, and assess the results at that higher hydration value. Maybe something like 75% would be a good test value.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1368 on: February 04, 2013, 07:34:31 PM »
Thanks for the picture of Gus Guerra.  I never saw a picture of Gus Guerra before.
Norma,

You might have forgotten but you showed a somewhat different photo of Gus (also with his daughter Marie) at Reply 62 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg220390.html#msg220390.

Peter

Correction: The photo is not of Gus but of his children Jack and Marie.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 09:54:58 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1369 on: February 04, 2013, 07:58:21 PM »
Norma,

It does indeed look like the rest period helped the hydration of the dough. Maybe we hit upon what "double kneading" really means. If that is what Buddy's uses, then it's possible that Buddy's is using a hydration value that is greater than what you have been using. If so, that might allow even relatively unskilled workers make the dough. Maybe sometime you can try testing a higher hydration value, along with a rest period, of course, and assess the results at that higher hydration value. Maybe something like 75% would be a good test value.

Peter

Peter,

I don’t know if we hit upon what “double kneading” means, or if that really is what Buddy’s uses, but I can understand it is possible that Buddy’s uses a higher hydration than I am using.  I will try a higher hydration next week or this week at home first.  I will try 75% hydration.

When Steve and I ate the real Buddy’s pizza the dough didn’t seem that high in hydration though.  The crumb wasn’t as airy as my attempts in my opinion, but then I never had a Buddy’s pizza fresh out of the oven at Buddy’s.

Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1370 on: February 04, 2013, 08:01:37 PM »
Norma,

You might have forgotten but you showed a somewhat different photo of Gus (also with his daughter Marie) at Reply 62 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg220390.html#msg220390.

Peter

Peter,

I did forget I posted that somewhat different photo of Gus with his daughter Marie.  The photo you posted looks a lot better though.  Do you know if Gus is still living?  Many I need memory pills.

Norma

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1371 on: February 04, 2013, 08:03:21 PM »
I won’t have Gus’s Buddy’s clone pizza and the auto parts pans ready for tomorrow because I just am starting on it tonight.  The steel pan and the Buddy’s clone pizza are at least started now.  Now the messy part to start with water and that plaster gauze.

I wonder if I should try to make a mask of Gus just for the heck of it.  What kind of suggestions are there for the mask?

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1372 on: February 04, 2013, 08:56:31 PM »
Do you know if Gus is still living? Maybe I need memory pills.
Norma,

It looks like I may need some of the memory pills too. According to the caption to the photo I referenced earlier, which was not easily read, the photo is of Gus's son Jack and his sister Marie. I corrected the post in which I provided the photo.

For a little bit of background, according to the Buddy's website, at http://www.buddyspizza.com/history.html, in 1936 Gus was the owner of Buddy's, although I think the official name at the time was Buddy's Rendezvous. The year 1936 was 77 years ago. So, if he was an adult at the time he owned the original Buddy's, and he is still living, then he would be almost as old as you are :-D.

As you may recall, Gus left Buddy's in 1953 and purchased the Cloverleaf Bar. That establishment is now called the Cloverleaf Bar & Restaurant and is owned by Gus's children Jack and Marie. I believe the photo shown in the text material at the Cloverleaf Bar & Restaurant website at http://www.cloverleafrestaurant.com/history.htm is Gus Guerra later in life. I think one of the photos at the right of the text material shows Gus with his wife Anna. To continue the story, Cloverleaf Bar & Restaurant also had two delco pizzerias called Cloverleaf that were run by Shawn Randazzo. Those units were sold to Shawn's mother, Linda Michael, and, after hiring a business coach, they renamed the two units and made them part of what is now called the Detroit Style Pizza Co.

You can see examples of the Guerra Cloverleaf Detroit style pizzas at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2012/05/detroit-the-guerra-legacy-lives-on-at-cloverleaf.html. You can see a 2012 photo of Jack and Marie at http://www.macombdaily.com/article/20120216/FINANCE01/302169927/cloverleaf-marks-65th-anniversary-of-pizza-with-community-event. They are the two people on the right.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 10:00:49 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1373 on: February 04, 2013, 10:06:32 PM »
Norma,

It looks like I may need some of the memory pills too. According to the caption to the photo I referenced earlier, which was not easily read, the photo is of Gus's son Jack and his sister Marie. I corrected the post in which I provided the photo.

For a little bit of background, according to the Buddy's website, at http://www.buddyspizza.com/history.html, in 1936 Gus was the owner of Buddy's, although I think the official name at the time was Buddy's Rendezvous. The year 1936 was 77 years ago. So, if he was an adult at the time he owned the original Buddy's, and he is still living, then he would be almost as old as you are :-D.

As you may recall, Gus left Buddy's in 1953 and purchased the Cloverleaf Bar. That establishment is now called the Cloverleaf Bar & Restaurant and is owned by Gus's children Jack and Marie. I believe the photo shown in the text material at the Cloverleaf Bar & Restaurant website at http://www.cloverleafrestaurant.com/history.htm is Gus Guerra later in life. I think one of the photos at the right of the text material shows Gus with his wife Anna. To continue the story, Cloverleaf Bar & Restaurant also had two delco pizzerias called Cloverleaf that were run by Shawn Randazzo. Those units were sold to Shawn's mother, Linda Michael, and, after hiring a business coach, they renamed the two units and made them part of what is now called the Detroit Style Pizza Co.

You can see examples of the Guerra Cloverleaf Detroit style pizzas at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2012/05/detroit-the-guerra-legacy-lives-on-at-cloverleaf.html. You can see a 2012 photo of Jack and Marie at http://www.macombdaily.com/article/20120216/FINANCE01/302169927/cloverleaf-marks-65th-anniversary-of-pizza-with-community-event. They are the two people on the right.

Peter



Peter,

I don’t think you need any of those memory pills.  You mind is still good.  I didn’t even see the caption on the photo you referenced. 

I see on the link you provided what Gus looked like and what it says that this original recipe is “The one everyone copies but no one equals".  I called the contact number on the Cloverleaf website and talked to a girl.  I asked other questions, but did ask if Gus Guerra was still alive.  The girl no Gus isn’t alive anymore, but she thinks he passed away about 18 years ago.  If I am his age I guess I am among the “walking dead".   :-D

I do recall that Gus left Buddy’s and purchased the Cloverleaf Bar.  I also think the photo shown at the right of the text material shows Gus with his wife Anna.  I didn’t recall that the Cloverleaf Bar & Restaurant also had two delco pizzerias called Cloverleaf, but I do recall that some Cloverleaf’s are run by Shawn Randazzo.  I know those two units are now called the Detroit Style Pizza Co.

I didn’t know there still was a Gus Guerra’s Cloverleaf Bar.  Talk about getting mixed up.  That sure is me.  Thanks for the additional link showing Jack and Marie.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1374 on: February 04, 2013, 10:08:44 PM »
The auto parts pan and Buddy’s clone pizza are formed now and coated with the plaster gauze.  At least that was fast and the auto parts pan and Buddy’s clone pizza are getting hard fast.  Now I will wait until Wednesday to try and paint them in memory of Gus.

Pictures top and bottom of the auto parts pan and Buddy's clone pizza.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1375 on: February 05, 2013, 11:07:24 AM »
Norma,

As it often happens, a single pizzeria spawns many others. Gus Guerra was at the top of the heap. He started Buddy's in the 1930s but sold the business to Jimmy Bonacorse and Jimmy Valenti in 1953, and they in turn sold the business sixteen years later, in 1970, to Billy and Shirlee Jacobs, the parents of Robert Jacobs, the present owner of Buddy's. Gus went on to purchase the Cloverleaf Bar, which, as previously mentioned, is now owned and run by his son Jack and his daughter Marie. Shawn Randazzo spun himself off to form the Detroit Style Pizza Co after his mother, Linda Michaels, purchased the delco business from Cloverleaf.

You might also recall Louis Tourtois. As discussed previously, Louis, who came from France, worked at Buddy's for seventeen years, and later at Shield's for seven years, whereupon he started Loui's Pizza, in 1977. Loui's Pizza is now run by his son, also named Loui. Legend has it that Tourtois changed the spelling of his name from Louis to Loui because it sounded more French.

As for Shield's, it started out as a bar (Shield's Bar) in 1936 and only later started to serve pizzas. Shield's was purchased in early 1997 by two brothers, Paul and Peter Andoni. The Andoni's changed the name to Shield's Franchise Restaurants, LLC and, according to the Shield's website, at http://www.shieldspizza.com/our_story.html, plan on expanding to new locations and offering franchises throughout Southeast Michigan and beyond.

There are many younger family members in the above businesses, so the businesses that their forbears established may be around for some time to come, using a dough recipe or some version thereof that had its origins at Buddy's.

As Paul Harvey would say, now you have the rest of the story. So, when your customers ask about "Gus", you can take the story in several different directions and speak with authority. Interesting stories with history and nostalgia help sell pizza. Hopefully, that will help you sell more Detroit style pizzas.

Peter


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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1376 on: February 05, 2013, 11:47:37 AM »
I also gave them instructions something like Buddy’s pizza gave me for the reheat.
Norma, not sure what Buddy's suggests, but I have found that if I preheat the toaster oven and pan to ~450F and then put the slice straight from the fridge and right on the hot pan (it'll sizzle nicely as the oil releases), a five-minute re-heat is enough to make it almost indistinguishable from fresh.

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1377 on: February 05, 2013, 09:20:54 PM »
Norma,

As it often happens, a single pizzeria spawns many others. Gus Guerra was at the top of the heap. He started Buddy's in the 1930s but sold the business to Jimmy Bonacorse and Jimmy Valenti in 1953, and they in turn sold the business sixteen years later, in 1970, to Billy and Shirlee Jacobs, the parents of Robert Jacobs, the present owner of Buddy's. Gus went on to purchase the Cloverleaf Bar, which, as previously mentioned, is now owned and run by his son Jack and his daughter Marie. Shawn Randazzo spun himself off to form the Detroit Style Pizza Co after his mother, Linda Michaels, purchased the delco business from Cloverleaf.

You might also recall Louis Tourtois. As discussed previously, Louis, who came from France, worked at Buddy's for seventeen years, and later at Shield's for seven years, whereupon he started Loui's Pizza, in 1977. Loui's Pizza is now run by his son, also named Loui. Legend has it that Tourtois changed the spelling of his name from Louis to Loui because it sounded more French.

As for Shield's, it started out as a bar (Shield's Bar) in 1936 and only later started to serve pizzas. Shield's was purchased in early 1997 by two brothers, Paul and Peter Andoni. The Andoni's changed the name to Shield's Franchise Restaurants, LLC and, according to the Shield's website, at http://www.shieldspizza.com/our_story.html, plan on expanding to new locations and offering franchises throughout Southeast Michigan and beyond.

There are many younger family members in the above businesses, so the businesses that their forbears established may be around for some time to come, using a dough recipe or some version thereof that had its origins at Buddy's.

As Paul Harvey would say, now you have the rest of the story. So, when your customers ask about "Gus", you can take the story in several different directions and speak with authority. Interesting stories with history and nostalgia help sell pizza. Hopefully, that will help you sell more Detroit style pizzas.

Peter



Peter,

I can see how that single pizzeria started by Gus Guerra did spawn many others since you have explained all what happened.  Thanks for explaining everything.  I do recall Louis Tourtois.  I think I recall reading that he changed the spelling of his name from Louis to Loui because it sounded more French.  I wonder why he wanted his name to sound more French.

I didn’t know that Paul and Peter Andoni changed the Shield’s name to Shields’s Franchise Restaurants, LLC and are planning on expanding to new locations and offering franchises throughout Southeast Michigan and beyond.

I think I am going to have to read over all what you posted many times to memorize all of that to tell my customers when they ask who “Gus” is.  I would like to speak with authority, but don’t know if I can remember that whole thing.   I was explaining to some customers today how Detroit style pizzas got started and what they were and then Steve said, “Oh no, don’t tell me I have to listen to this whole thing all the time”.  :-D  I do drive Steve nuts sometimes. I did sell all the Buddy’s clone pizzas again today even though we were slow.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1378 on: February 05, 2013, 09:24:46 PM »
Norma, not sure what Buddy's suggests, but I have found that if I preheat the toaster oven and pan to ~450F and then put the slice straight from the fridge and right on the hot pan (it'll sizzle nicely as the oil releases), a five-minute re-heat is enough to make it almost indistinguishable from fresh.

Skee,

Thanks for posting what you do when you want to reheat a slice to make it taste fresh.  That man and lady didn’t come to market today so I don’t know how their whole pizzas turned out when they unfroze the Buddy’s clone pizzas.

Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1379 on: February 05, 2013, 09:29:36 PM »
All the Buddy’s clone dough pizzas with the dough balls made yesterday turned out well today, but the Buddy’s clone dough I made for the 2-day ferment with 0.50% IDY sure had hills and valleys when it was baked.  I don’t know what made that happened.  The dough was tempered the same time as all the other dough balls in the Hatco Unit and it appeared to me to look the same after the tempering period.  After the bake though was when it could be seen that it had those hills and valleys.  I only used cheese and sauce on this pizza.  The dough ball was put into the Hatco Unit a little after 5:30 PM.  The poppy seed spacings can be seen in the first picture before I placed it into the steel pan before the temper period.  The dough seemed to press out the same as all the other dough balls today.  The rest of the pictures are from the dough ball that had been cold fermented for a two-day period.

Norma
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