Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!

[norma427]

Norma,

I thought that you would be interested in this recent PMQ Think Tank thread in which a member asked about how to handle a bulk mass of high hydration (75%) dough: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13987&sid=7fa34750be0dedc6c7d41c12e4717d4e/. I saw the member's post before Tom Lehmann addressed it but wondered how I would have answered it, or how you might have answered it. I came to the conclusion, as Tom did, that it would be difficult to bulk ferment a 75% hydration dough and be able to do the division and scaling the next day into individual dough balls the next day, even though cold and more amenable to handing than a freshly made dough. It would be a fairly messy and sticky job. At least in your case, wiith the use of rest periods and double kneading, the job is manageable.

I also wondered whether the poster was a member of this forum also and possibly became enamored of high-hydration pan style doughs based on what members have done on this forum. As it turns out, he is a member of this forum but his last appearance was back in 2008.

Peter

Peter,

I was interested in that recent article on PMQ Think Thank.  I also think it would be difficult to bulk ferment a 75% dough and be able to then do the division and scaling the next day into individual dough balls.  I know dough is better to work with when it is cold, but I can only imagine what a messy and sticky job that might be.  Maybe the poster doesn’t know about how a intensive mix, rest period and another intensive mix might help him get a much more manageable dough with a higher hydration. 

I wonder if the poster tried a higher hydration dough on this forum in a pan back in 2008.  Sounds like he might be trying to make a Detroit style pizza, but he might be trying another style in a pan.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I was interested in that recent article on PMQ Think Thank.  I also think it would be difficult to bulk ferment a 75% dough and be able to then do the division and scaling the next day into individual dough balls.  I know dough is better to work with when it is cold, but I can only imagine what a messy and sticky job that might be.  Maybe the poster doesn’t know about how a intensive mix, rest period and another intensive mix might help him get a much more manageable dough with a higher hydration.

Even with the intensive mixing and rest period, the biochemical activity that takes place in a dough with a high hydration proceeds quickly, and the dough may be prone to gluten damage during fermentation by the action of enzymes (including protease enzymes) and, as a result, the dough may revert back to being sticky and messy to handle by the time the next day rolls around. If a lot of yeast is also used, the dough can be well fermented by the next day, adding to difficulties handling the dough. It might be possible to put the dough back into the mixer bowl and subject it to some more mixing and rest to be able to better handle the dough. In such a case, the initial knead and rest from the day before might be made brief so as not to overwork the dough. Or maybe the two two kneading and rest procedures can be flipped around.

I wonder if the poster tried a higher hydration dough on this forum in a pan back in 2008.  Sounds like he might be trying to make a Detroit style pizza, but he might be trying another style in a pan.

The poster had only a handful of posts, none of which was directed to a dough formulation. As a pizza professional, almost all of his posts related to business matters.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,
Even with the intensive mixing and rest period, the biochemical activity that takes place in a dough with a high hydration proceeds quickly, and the dough may be prone to gluten damage during fermentation by the action of enzymes (including protease enzymes) and, as a result, the dough may revert back to being sticky and messy to handle by the time the next day rolls around. If a lot of yeast is also used, the dough can be well fermented by the next day, adding to difficulties handling the dough. It might be possible to put the dough back into the mixer bowl and subject it to some more mixing and rest to be able to better handle the dough. In such a case, the initial knead and rest from the day before might be made brief so as not to overwork the dough. Or maybe the two two kneading and rest procedures can be flipped around.
The poster had only a handful of posts, none of which was directed to a dough formulation. As a pizza professional, almost all of his posts related to business matters.

Peter

Peter,

I didn’t even think about with the intensive mixing and rest period the dough might revert back to being a sticky mess until the next day rolls around from the biochemical activity that takes place in a dough with a high fermentation and by the action of the enzymes.  I can understand it could also be well fermented until the next day since you explained that. 

I know my dough balls start out looking nice and plump, but by the next day after cold fermenting they have slumped pretty much, but they are very easy to press out in the steel pans when they are cold.  I also know that after the tempering period, the dough is way to sticky to do much of anything with.  It even sticks to my fingers then.  I find that interesting that the dough can go from being nice and then it reverts back to being sticky again.

Thanks for telling me about that poster is a pizza professional.

I also wanted to mention that I have been using some kind of cheap olive oil from Aldi to oil these dough balls and also my NY style dough balls in the last few weeks.  I can’t explain what might be any difference from this cheap Aldi olive oil from any other oil, but the both dough balls behave a lot better for me when using the cheap olive oil.  My NY style dough balls even open up easier than ever.  Another mystery.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I also wanted to mention that I have been using some kind of cheap olive oil from Aldi to oil these dough balls and also my NY style dough balls in the last few weeks.  I can’t explain what might be any difference from this cheap Aldi olive oil from any other oil, but the both dough balls behave a lot better for me when using the cheap olive oil.  My NY style dough balls even open up easier than ever.  Another mystery.

It's hard to imagine that olive oil would be functionally better than some other oil but I will defer to you on that. As far as the Aldi olive oil is concerned, it's cheapness doesn't necessarily mean that it is inferior. As I understand it, their products are of good quality and a good value also, at least from the prices I have seen in their flyers.

Peter

[norma427]

It's hard to imagine that olive oil would be functionally better than some other oil but I will defer to you on that. As far as the Aldi olive oil is concerned, it's cheapness doesn't necessarily mean that it is inferior. As I understand it, their products are of good quality and a good value also, at least from the prices I have seen in their flyers.

Peter

Peter,

I also thought the same thing as why Aldi olive oil would be any different, but somehow it makes my dough handle better (when the dough balls are oiled with it), or at least it appears to.  I think the Aldi olive oil was about 2.69 for a bottle.  I have to look on the label to see what it says.  What Steve and I thought was strange about the Aldi olive oil was that when at cooler temperatures at market it wants to become cloudy and is harder to get out of the bottle.  I do purchase many different things at Aldi and do like most of them.

Norma 

[Chicago Bob]

Aldi is BIG in Germany....I never underestimate their products and am always trying out their stuff to compare against products I currently use. Over the years I have found many items at Aldi's to be better than what I had been using.

[norma427]

Aldi is BIG in Germany....I never underestimate their products and am always trying out their stuff to compare against products I currently use. Over the years I have found many items at Aldi's to be better than what I had been using.

Bob,

I didn't know Aldi is big in Germany.  Good to hear you also try out Aldi products and compare them against other products you currently use.  Great to hear you have found many items at Aldi's that are actually better then what you have been using.

Norma

[Chicago Bob]

Bob,

I didn't know Aldi is big in Germany.  Good to hear you also try out Aldi products and compare them against other products you currently use.  Great to hear you have found many items at Aldi's that are actually better then what you have been using.

Norma

Oh yes..over there the Aldi stores layout are huge! Positioned in the center of the stores is a very classy(yet low cost)extravagant cafe(a mini food court actually)with fresh baked goods, pizza, roasted meat sandwiches, cheeses,beer bar, etc., etc.  Real nice hang out for the men folk while the ladies do their shopping. 

Oddly enough, their corporate headquarters is located in a Chicago suburb.

[norma427]

Oh yes..over there the Aldi stores layout are huge! Positioned in the center of the stores is a very classy(yet low cost)extravagant cafe(a mini food court actually)with fresh baked goods, pizza, roasted meat sandwiches, cheeses,beer bar, etc., etc.  Real nice hang out for the men folk while the ladies do their shopping. 

Oddly enough, their corporate headquarters is located in a Chicago suburb.

Bob,

Thanks for telling me what the Aldi stores are like in Germany.  My local Aldi store sure isn't like that.

Norma

[Chicago Bob]

My local Aldi store sure isn't like that.

Norma

Neither is mine Norma 
I think they originated the "insert a quarter" shopping carts. 

[gschwim]

Norma,

Also, you might be interested in knowing that the Buddy's thread just recently went over the 100,000 page view mark. That is a major milestone.

Peter

So now I get my name on a brass plate mounted on your wall as the founder of a thread that surpassed 100,000 page views?  Certificate of Achievement?  My weight in gold?  Anything?

Gene

[gschwim]

Britt,

I think that Norma's goal is to keep increasing the hydration of the dough to the point where the crust has the consistency and lightness of cotton candy (with which Norma already has expertise) and is mainly air, carbon dioxide, water and a trace of flour . The profit margins for that combination are bound to be much better than what Buddy's gets. As of the moment, about 42% of the weight of one of Norma's clone dough balls is water.

Peter

I think a large portion of the kind of soft ice cream that Dairy Queen serves is air.  So Norma is Pizza Queen?

Gene
 

[Chicago Bob]

So Norma is Pizza Queen?


 

She always has been.....

[gschwim]

Thanks!  The 48-hr ferment does add some character to the crust, making it more delicate and a bit tastier.  The dough is 70% hydration, KASL, 0.35% IDY, 1.5% sea salt.  A one-minute mix with the paddle on speed 1 (Kitchen Aide), a five-minute rest, then a one-minute knead with the dough hook on speed 2. 

In my younger days, I would drink a lot of beer, then "ferment" for a couple of days.  Never did anything for my character.

Gene

[gschwim]

Bob,

I didn't know Aldi is big in Germany.  Good to hear you also try out Aldi products and compare them against other products you currently use.  Great to hear you have found many items at Aldi's that are actually better then what you have been using.

Norma

ALDI is a German company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldi).  "ALDI" comes from ALbrecht DIscount.

For all you trivia buffs out there.

Gene

[norma427]

ALDI is a German company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldi).  "ALDI" comes from ALbrecht DIscount.

For all you trivia buffs out there.

Gene

Thanks Gene!

Norma

[Chicago Bob]

ALDI is a German company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldi).  "ALDI" comes from ALbrecht DIscount.

For all you trivia buffs out there.

Gene

Yep...they pride themselves as not being one of the 7 deadly sins.  

[norma427]

In case anyone is interested the first picture is the dough formulation I used for 2 dough balls with 0.70% IDY and 75% hydration for a test tomorrow on Peter’s advice.  The mixing method is on the other photo dough formulation sheet.  If there are any questions just ask.  The two dough balls were scaled back to 9.5 oz for the 8”x10” steel pans.  The dough can be seen in the mixer bowl after the “double knead” and the rest period in between.  Poppy seeds were placed on one dough ball so I can see how much it ferments until tomorrow before I put one of the dough balls in a steel pan.  I only put the poppy seeds on one dough ball.  The measuring tape wanted to slip from the dough ball being oiled and also since it was in a smaller plastic container.  The dough for the 2 dough balls was mixed this morning.  The final dough temperature was 73.9 degrees F after the “double knead” and the rest period in between.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

The first three pictures are just the Aldi olive oil I have been using to oil my dough balls at market.  It can been seen on the unopened glass bottle how the olive oil wants to want to get cloudy and thicker at the colder temperatures at market right now.  The other bottle has been at market too, but it hadn’t been opened when the picture was taken.  I don’ know why the second bottle isn’t the same as the first bottle.  The nutrition facts can be seen for the Aldi olive oil and also the Filippo Berio olive oil.  They look almost the same to me.  The temperature last Friday at market was only 42 degrees F inside.  Today when I went to market the temperature was 62 degrees F inside, but the olive oil containers and my bottled water were very cold, so someone must had turned up the heaters before I had arrived at market.

The picture of the dough in the Hobart mixer bowl is the bigger batch that was made at market today.  The first picture is after the intensive first knead.  The second picture shows how the dough still wanted to stick to my fingers after the first mix.  The third picture is just what two different kinds of my steel pans look like before they are greased.  It can be seen how the one steel pan I purchase before the ones I purchased at Detroit Style Pizza Co. still aren’t seasoned right on the bottom of the steel pan, but those steel pans still work okay.  The fourth pictures shows after the rest period that the dough doesn’t even want to stick to my fingers hardly at all before the second knead.  Fifth picture is after the dough gathers on the flat beater in the second knead.  The fifth and sixth pictures are of when the dough is being mixed on speed two.  I think it can be seen how the flat beater at speed two throws the dough off onto the edges of the mixer bowl.  The seventh picture show how strong the dough is when stretching it after the “double knead” and 20 minute rest period.  Eighth picture is just of some steel pan with dough balls in the steel pan waiting to get their plastic caps on.  Ninth picture is of the frozen dough ball from last Tuesday that I am going to see if it is okay tomorrow when trying to make a Detroit style pizza.

Norma