Author Topic: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 243508 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1500 on: February 18, 2013, 06:24:55 PM »
Norma


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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1501 on: February 18, 2013, 06:26:41 PM »
Norma

Offline dineomite

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1502 on: February 18, 2013, 07:11:14 PM »
Aldi's owns Trader Joe's. Like Trader Joe's, Aldi actually brokers some good deals with some good quality food companies. (Trader Joe's label meat has some Neimann Ranch products, some of TJ's chocolate is Callibaut.)

Offline Qarl

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1503 on: February 18, 2013, 07:26:37 PM »
I think I'll try this recipe this weekend! :)

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1504 on: February 18, 2013, 07:43:06 PM »
I think I'll try this recipe this weekend! :)


Qarl,

You can use the emergency dough or the one day cold ferment if you decide to try.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1505 on: February 20, 2013, 08:52:49 AM »
These are photos of some of the Detroit style pizzas that were made yesterday, 2 pictures of the regular metal spatula I use to take the Detroit style pizzas out of the steel pan (included is the metal spatula without the wood handle that I tried yesterday).  The metal spatula without the wooden handle seemed to work better I think because it is a little thinner.  I want to look and see if I can find a thinner spatula to made sure the caramelized edges are loose before removing the pizza from the pan.  A different Detroit style pizza (Steveís Smokey Joe) was made yesterday.  It had applewood smoked bacon fresh from market (baked in the oven), skin brushed with garlic herb infused olive oil,  AMPI mild white cheddar, applewood smoked Gouda cheese, blend of mozzarella, garlic Alfredo sauce and a sprinkling of Greek oregano on top.  A customer ordered a 4-square mushroom and pepperoni pizza.  Another Detroit style pizza had cut up basil placed on the skin, cheddar and blend of mozzarellas, Mesquite chicken and fire roasted tomatoes (Marco Pollo).

I forgot to take photos of the pizza made with the frozen dough ball, but it didnít rise as much in height in the bake, but the bottom did brown and the edges did caramelize.  I donít think frozen dough balls are going to work for this style of pizza.  :(

These Detroit style pizzas were made with the dough I had mixed at market with the regular hydration I have been using.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1506 on: February 20, 2013, 08:56:49 AM »
Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1507 on: February 20, 2013, 09:00:44 AM »
Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1508 on: February 20, 2013, 09:01:34 AM »
Norma
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 09:06:49 AM by norma427 »


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1509 on: February 20, 2013, 09:31:12 AM »
Norma,

If I recall correctly, one of the experiments that you were to conduct was to use 0.70% IDY instead of 0.80% IDY (to slow down the fermentation and rise), and with a hydration of 75%. How did that test work out?

Peter

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1510 on: February 20, 2013, 09:49:19 AM »
Norma,

If I recall correctly, one of the experiments that you were to conduct was to use 0.70% IDY instead of 0.80% IDY (to slow down the fermentation and rise), and with a hydration of 75%. How did that test work out?

Peter

Peter,

You did recall correctly that I did do an experiment using 0.70% IDY and a hydration of 75%.  I didn't resize those pictures, but will soon and post the results.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1511 on: February 20, 2013, 10:33:18 AM »
I waited until later in the day (around 3:30 PM) to start to try the two dough balls made with 0.70% IDY and 75% hydration because I wanted to see if the longer cold ferment time would make any difference in the final bake.  I forgot to measure the poppy seed spacings, but the 2 dough balls didnít seem to ferment very much.  It can be seen on the one picture when I held the dough ball up, there wasnít a lot of fermentation going on.  Both doughs pressed out well in the pans and tempered well in the Hatco Unit.  The final pizza with 0.70% IDY using 75% hydration was finished baking about 6:00 PM.  Peterís advice to use 0.70% IDY with 75% hydration worked out well.  Thanks Peter for your advise to use a smaller amount of IDY for a higher hydration Detroit style dough to be cold fermented for one day.  I didnít have time to take a lot of photos of those two pizzas, but the crumb was very good.  I am not sure about this, but the crumb did seem to be whiter in color.

Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1512 on: February 20, 2013, 10:35:10 AM »
Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1513 on: February 20, 2013, 10:36:46 AM »
Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1514 on: February 20, 2013, 10:37:45 AM »
Norma

Offline Skee

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1515 on: February 20, 2013, 11:51:56 AM »
I waited until later in the day (around 3:30 PM) to start to try the two dough balls made with 0.70% IDY and 75% hydration because I wanted to see if the longer cold ferment time would make any difference in the final bake.
Pies look good, Norma!  Crumb appears softer and judging from the wider toasted cheese strip on the edge, looks like they didn't rise very much before going in the oven, then took off in the heat.  Did you doing any proofing before dressing?  Did you find the higher hydration led to easier handling in the pan?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1516 on: February 20, 2013, 12:23:51 PM »
I waited until later in the day (around 3:30 PM) to start to try the two dough balls made with 0.70% IDY and 75% hydration because I wanted to see if the longer cold ferment time would make any difference in the final bake.  I forgot to measure the poppy seed spacings, but the 2 dough balls didnít seem to ferment very much.  It can be seen on the one picture when I held the dough ball up, there wasnít a lot of fermentation going on.  Both doughs pressed out well in the pans and tempered well in the Hatco Unit.  The final pizza with 0.70% IDY using 75% hydration was finished baking about 6:00 PM.  Peterís advice to use 0.70% IDY with 75% hydration worked out well.  Thanks Peter for your advise to use a smaller amount of IDY for a higher hydration Detroit style dough to be cold fermented for one day.  I didnít have time to take a lot of photos of those two pizzas, but the crumb was very good.  I am not sure about this, but the crumb did seem to be whiter in color.
Norma,

Thank you for the update on the 0.70% IDY/75% hydration test. It appears to have worked well judging from your photos.

You have to date conducted many experiments and tests using both room temperature and cold fermentations and different amounts of yeast and different hydration values. And you have tried using salt and no salt in the doughs, and, more recently, you have used the "double knead" method. You have also put your refrigeration equipment and Hatco unit to good use to control dough temperatures at different stages, both during fermentation and also during the course of the day at market. Based on your experience and the results that you have achieved experimenting with and testing all of the different approaches, have you concluded which clone dough formulation (including dough ball weight) and dough preparation and management protocol seems to serve your purposes at market the best, and might be the one to settle on going forward? And, if so, why?

Also, have you settled on which cheeses (or cheese blends), tomatoes and pepperoni you will be using, at least in the near term while you sample other possibilities? And have you settled on any specific weights of the cheeses and sauce to use on your pizzas?

Peter


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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1517 on: February 20, 2013, 12:29:38 PM »
Pies look good, Norma!  Crumb appears softer and judging from the wider toasted cheese strip on the edge, looks like they didn't rise very much before going in the oven, then took off in the heat.  Did you doing any proofing before dressing?  Did you find the higher hydration led to easier handling in the pan?

Brit,

The crumb was softer with the 75% hydration.  I did temper both doughs in the steel pans in the Hatco Unit at about 104 degrees F before dressing and baking.  My doughs in the steel pans donít rise a lot in the Hatco Unit, but seem to during the bake.  Yes, I think the higher hydration did make the dough a little easier to press out in the steel pans.  Steve also pressed one dough out in the steel pan and he also thought it was a little easier to pressed out the dough with the higher hydration.

Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1518 on: February 20, 2013, 01:14:51 PM »
Norma,

Thank you for the update on the 0.70% IDY/75% hydration test. It appears to have worked well judging from your photos.

You have to date conducted many experiments and tests using both room temperature and cold fermentations and different amounts of yeast and different hydration values. And you have tried using salt and no salt in the doughs, and, more recently, you have used the "double knead" method. You have also put your refrigeration equipment and Hatco unit to good use to control dough temperatures at different stages, both during fermentation and also during the course of the day at market. Based on your experience and the results that you have achieved experimenting with and testing all of the different approaches, have you concluded which clone dough formulation (including dough ball weight) and dough preparation and management protocol seems to serve your purposes at market the best, and might be the one to settle on going forward? And, if so, why?

Also, have you settled on which cheeses (or cheese blends), tomatoes and pepperoni you will be using, at least in the near term while you sample other possibilities? And have you settled on any specific weights of the cheeses and sauce to use on your pizzas?

Peter

Peter,

Yes, I know I conducted many experiments and tests with many things on this thread with your help. 

To answer your questions about which dough formulation I like best so far, it is the one with 0.70% IDY and 75% hydration that you recently suggested.  The crumb is softer from that formulation.  I really didnít want to go to 75% hydration, but since it seems to give a better crumb structure and tenderness, I guess I will try that at market for a bigger batch next week.  So far I like the 9.5 oz dough ball weight for the 4-square and 19 oz of dough for the 8-square, unless we find out more about Buddyís dough ball weights.  I like the ďdouble kneadingĒ method with the rest period in so far because it made the dough less sticky at home.  I havenít tried the higher hydration at market with ďdouble kneadingĒ and a rest period, but think it might work about the same as it did when I mixed the dough at home.  This is only for me at market, but the dough seems to hold up well all day, which I am glad about.  I didnít want to have to make any dough on Tuesday which I donít have to do now.  The reasons I would stay with the current mixing methods, tempering in the Hatco Unit, using the 70% IDY amount and a higher hydration is I want to be able to make the best Detroit style pizza I can for market and so far all this seems to work for market.  I donít know if any of this will change, but for now I am satisfied with just about everything.  The Detroit style pizzas do seem to be able to handle a lot of ingredients applied.  I have to test next week if a dough mixed at market with a higher hydration can also take a lot of dressings. 

I think I am settled on the AMPI mild white cheddar for around the perimeter of the steel pan and a blend of mozzarellas in the middle with a little of the AMPI mild white cheddar.  I might use some smoked Gouda at times depending on what dressings are applied.  I might also try some Feta for a Greek Detroit style.  I donít think I can find any distributors in my area for the brick cheese, which I am not really happy about, but that is the way it is.  At least the AMPI mild white cheddar does seem to work well for a Detroit style pizza.  I didnít try the Super Dolce Super Sweet Super Heavy Pizza sauce yet to compare to my regular pizza sauce, but I sure would think it would be a lot easier just to use my regular pizza sauce, then to take up more room in my refrigeration units for another sauce.  I might get Buddyís extra sauce out of the freezer next week to compare to the Super Dolce sauce.  For the pepperoni I will probably stick to the brand I am using for my NY style pizzas because it does seem to bake fine on top of the Detroit style pizzas and is far less expensive than the coarse grind pepperoni.  No, I havenít decided on any specific weights for the cheese or sauce.  That is something I have to work on, especially since the cheddar is a little more expensive than my mozzarellas and more cheeses are applied for this type of pizza.  For the sauce I soon need to purchase a smaller ladle to see how much I really apply.

If you have anything else for me to test or try, let me know.  This thread has been a good learning experience for me.  Thanks for the journey!

Norma     

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1519 on: February 20, 2013, 01:59:08 PM »
I agree, you've done a great job on this one Norma and we all appreciate it.

One question, and I'm sorry if I missed it, but how long of a tempering time are you doing in your Hatco unit at 104 degrees?
I just did a thread search for "double kneading" and read through the 21 posts. If I had not started at #21 and just began with the most recent one I could have saved myself some time. ::)  ;D  Oh well, at least I know what it means now. The "rest" period you and Peter have discussed is simply the 10-15 minute period you wait until your second/final mix. Correct? Oh, also..is there a final dough temp that I need to be concerned about?
Thanks again.

Bob
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1520 on: February 20, 2013, 02:06:01 PM »
Norma,

Thank you very much for the very nice summary. We both have learned a lot of new and interesting things about high yeast, high hydration doughs in the context of pan pizzas. And, although you are happy with the latest iteration of the Buddy's clone dough as modified for a one-day cold fermentation, it should still be comforting to you to know that you can always make an emergency few-hours version of the dough in the event something happens to your regular dough that renders it ususable. That is what many pizza operators do, and for the same reason. So, to be on the safe side, you might print out a copy of your best emergency Buddy's clone dough formulation to have it at the ready at market in the event you ever have to use it.

I forgot to ask you earlier but did you decide which lubricant works best for you to lubricate the pans, and was the decision based on functionality (e.g., particular attributes of shortening vs. oil), flavor, application, quantity, or cost?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1521 on: February 20, 2013, 02:19:53 PM »
I agree, you've done a great job on this one Norma and we all appreciate it.

One question, and I'm sorry if I missed it, but how long of a tempering time are you doing in your Hatco unit at 104 degrees?
I just did a thread search for "double kneading" and read through the 21 posts. If I had not started at #21 and just began with the most recent one I could have saved myself some time. ::)  ;D  Oh well, at least I know what it means now. The "rest" period you and Peter have discussed is simply the 10-15 minute period you wait until your second/final mix. Correct? Oh, also..is there a final dough temp that I need to be concerned about?
Thanks again.

Bob

Bob,

Without Peterís help on this thread I wouldnít have come this far.  I didnít know I was basically making a Buddyís clone when I started this thread.  :-D

I temper the pressed out dough in the steel pan in the Hatco Unit for 45 minutes.  That also can be done in a home oven with the light on, but it might take a little bit different amount of time.   

The rest period is anywhere between 15-20 minutes.  I still havenít figured out what is the best rest period time.  You are correct that the rest period is the time before the second knead.  The final dough temperature would depend on what temperature the room temperature is and also what temperature your flour and other ingredients are and also how long you want to cold ferment. 

This dough formulation (before the 0.70% IDY and 75% hydration) can be made as an emergency dough and the final pizza can be ready in a matter of hours.  I did that before on this thread and so did Steve different times.  Steve didnít post his pictures, or tell about his one experiment at home, but he made 2 doughs that were cold fermented for about a day and then mixed 2 doughs that were emergency doughs and they were baked basically at almost the same time.  Steve told me he really couldnít really notice much of any difference in the tastes or the way the pizzas baked.

Sometime at home I will have to try 75% hydration with 0.80% IDY.

Norma

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1522 on: February 20, 2013, 02:32:40 PM »
Thank you Norma...I'm going to try a same day with salt, .8 idy and 75% water.
Bob
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1523 on: February 20, 2013, 02:47:00 PM »
Norma,

We both have learned a lot of new and interesting things about high yeast, high hydration doughs in the context of pan pizzas. And, although you are happy with the latest iteration of the Buddy's clone dough as modified for a one-day cold fermentation, it should still be comforting to you to know that you can always make an emergency few-hours version of the dough in the event something happens to your regular dough that renders it ususable. That is what many pizza operators do, and for the same reason. So, to be on the safe side, you might print out a copy of your best emergency Buddy's clone dough formulation to have it at the ready at market in the event you ever have to use it.

I forgot to ask you earlier but did you decide which lubricant works best for you to lubricate the pans, and was the decision based on functionality (e.g., particular attributes of shortening vs. oil), flavor, application, quantity, or cost?

Peter

Peter,

Yes, I agree we both have learned a lot of new and interesting things about high yeast, high hydration doughs in the context of pan pizzas.  You are always the leader and I am the follower.  I know I will have to print out an emergency dough formulation for market in case something happens that my dough might not be good when I get to market on a Tuesday morning.  I have been putting that off, but will soon do it.  My dang pizza prep fridge was acting up again yesterday.  I am getting so sick and tired of moving the heavy Hobart and also the other heavy stuff, but will deal with that.  It was okay on Monday and okay when I got to market yesterday morning, but started acting up during the day again after opening and shutting the doors so much.  Luckily my Buddyís clone doughs werenít in that unit, but my NY style doughs almost overfermented again this week.  I can see the need for an emergency dough even more since what is been happening in the last few weeks with my one refrigeration unit.  The power might also go off from a thunderstorm or bad weather.

To answer your question about which lubricant works the best for me it doesnít really seem to matter if it is Canola oil or the MBF I am currently using.  I have so much of the MFB that was given to me as a sample that I thought since it works that is what I will use now.  I might also try vegetable oil, which I donít recall right now if I tried that or not.  I have to check with my distributor what the differences in costs are for Canola oil or vegetable (soybean) oil.  I really donít know what the differences are in those costs.  I canít notice any differences in flavors in the final crust when using either Canola oil or MBF shortening.  I donít even know what the cost of the MFB shortening is, but there is a ConAgra distributor near me.  I donít know which lubricant would be the best for customers and didnít even compare Nutriton Information for them.  I do know though that a Detroit style pizza sure isnít in the best health for customers with all the cheeses that go on that style of pizza and also the oil frying the pizza in the pan.

Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1524 on: February 20, 2013, 02:48:43 PM »
Thank you Norma...I'm going to try a same day with salt, .8 idy and 75% water.
Bob

Bob,

Good luck and if you need any help just let me know.

Norma


 

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