Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Thank you very much for the very nice summary. We both have learned a lot of new and interesting things about high yeast, high hydration doughs in the context of pan pizzas. And, although you are happy with the latest iteration of the Buddy's clone dough as modified for a one-day cold fermentation, it should still be comforting to you to know that you can always make an emergency few-hours version of the dough in the event something happens to your regular dough that renders it ususable. That is what many pizza operators do, and for the same reason. So, to be on the safe side, you might print out a copy of your best emergency Buddy's clone dough formulation to have it at the ready at market in the event you ever have to use it.

I forgot to ask you earlier but did you decide which lubricant works best for you to lubricate the pans, and was the decision based on functionality (e.g., particular attributes of shortening vs. oil), flavor, application, quantity, or cost?

Peter

[norma427]

I agree, you've done a great job on this one Norma and we all appreciate it.

One question, and I'm sorry if I missed it, but how long of a tempering time are you doing in your Hatco unit at 104 degrees?
I just did a thread search for "double kneading" and read through the 21 posts. If I had not started at #21 and just began with the most recent one I could have saved myself some time.     Oh well, at least I know what it means now. The "rest" period you and Peter have discussed is simply the 10-15 minute period you wait until your second/final mix. Correct? Oh, also..is there a final dough temp that I need to be concerned about?
Thanks again.

Bob

Bob,

Without Peter’s help on this thread I wouldn’t have come this far.  I didn’t know I was basically making a Buddy’s clone when I started this thread. 

I temper the pressed out dough in the steel pan in the Hatco Unit for 45 minutes.  That also can be done in a home oven with the light on, but it might take a little bit different amount of time.   

The rest period is anywhere between 15-20 minutes.  I still haven’t figured out what is the best rest period time.  You are correct that the rest period is the time before the second knead.  The final dough temperature would depend on what temperature the room temperature is and also what temperature your flour and other ingredients are and also how long you want to cold ferment. 

This dough formulation (before the 0.70% IDY and 75% hydration) can be made as an emergency dough and the final pizza can be ready in a matter of hours.  I did that before on this thread and so did Steve different times.  Steve didn’t post his pictures, or tell about his one experiment at home, but he made 2 doughs that were cold fermented for about a day and then mixed 2 doughs that were emergency doughs and they were baked basically at almost the same time.  Steve told me he really couldn’t really notice much of any difference in the tastes or the way the pizzas baked.

Sometime at home I will have to try 75% hydration with 0.80% IDY.

Norma

[Chicago Bob]

Thank you Norma...I'm going to try a same day with salt, .8 idy and 75% water.
Bob

[norma427]

Norma,

We both have learned a lot of new and interesting things about high yeast, high hydration doughs in the context of pan pizzas. And, although you are happy with the latest iteration of the Buddy's clone dough as modified for a one-day cold fermentation, it should still be comforting to you to know that you can always make an emergency few-hours version of the dough in the event something happens to your regular dough that renders it ususable. That is what many pizza operators do, and for the same reason. So, to be on the safe side, you might print out a copy of your best emergency Buddy's clone dough formulation to have it at the ready at market in the event you ever have to use it.

I forgot to ask you earlier but did you decide which lubricant works best for you to lubricate the pans, and was the decision based on functionality (e.g., particular attributes of shortening vs. oil), flavor, application, quantity, or cost?

Peter

Peter,

Yes, I agree we both have learned a lot of new and interesting things about high yeast, high hydration doughs in the context of pan pizzas.  You are always the leader and I am the follower.  I know I will have to print out an emergency dough formulation for market in case something happens that my dough might not be good when I get to market on a Tuesday morning.  I have been putting that off, but will soon do it.  My dang pizza prep fridge was acting up again yesterday.  I am getting so sick and tired of moving the heavy Hobart and also the other heavy stuff, but will deal with that.  It was okay on Monday and okay when I got to market yesterday morning, but started acting up during the day again after opening and shutting the doors so much.  Luckily my Buddy’s clone doughs weren’t in that unit, but my NY style doughs almost overfermented again this week.  I can see the need for an emergency dough even more since what is been happening in the last few weeks with my one refrigeration unit.  The power might also go off from a thunderstorm or bad weather.

To answer your question about which lubricant works the best for me it doesn’t really seem to matter if it is Canola oil or the MBF I am currently using.  I have so much of the MFB that was given to me as a sample that I thought since it works that is what I will use now.  I might also try vegetable oil, which I don’t recall right now if I tried that or not.  I have to check with my distributor what the differences in costs are for Canola oil or vegetable (soybean) oil.  I really don’t know what the differences are in those costs.  I can’t notice any differences in flavors in the final crust when using either Canola oil or MBF shortening.  I don’t even know what the cost of the MFB shortening is, but there is a ConAgra distributor near me.  I don’t know which lubricant would be the best for customers and didn’t even compare Nutriton Information for them.  I do know though that a Detroit style pizza sure isn’t in the best health for customers with all the cheeses that go on that style of pizza and also the oil frying the pizza in the pan.

Norma

[norma427]

Thank you Norma...I'm going to try a same day with salt, .8 idy and 75% water.
Bob

Bob,

Good luck and if you need any help just let me know.

Norma

[norma427]

For anyone that is interested related media article about Shawn Randazzo, co-founder of Detroit Style Pizza Co.  http://www.theunion.com/news/business/4583828-113/pizza-style-detroit-jechura 

Detroit-style pizza arrives at KJ’s in Grass Valley.  It is call a “Red Top”.  I never heard it given that name before.  Photos of Shawn Randazzo in the slideshow showing how he makes his Detroit style pizza at KJ’s Pizza at 121 Neal Street, Grass Valley CA.  He taught Kathy and Paul Jerchura how to make Detroit Style Pizza.  The Detroit Style Pizza is being baked in a Blodgett oven.  I can’t see the temperature though.  It is also called “Old Forge” style pizza, which is interesting to me.  I might have to go visit Old Forge, Pa. someday.  I think the article is interesting in how Shawn Randazzo decided to train the Jerchuras and also how the Jerchuras really ate at Buddy’s. 

This is KJ’s Pizza on facebook.  https://www.facebook.com/KjPizza?fref=ts  The onion bread and cheese bread looks very good to me.  I wonder how they are made.  A picture of just their Sicilian crust is also on KJ’s facebook page.

Related articles to this the above article.  http://www.theunion.com/news/4282002-113/jechura-pizza-detroit-style
http://sierrafoothillsreport.com/2013/01/07/world-renowned-pizza-coming-to-downtown-grass-valley/

I guess the word is now spreading out west now about Detroit style pizzas. 

Norma

[steel_baker]

Norma, The Victory Pig pizza that I make is considered an "Old Forge" style pizza. the VP restaurant is in the town of Wyoming, PA between 5-10 miles from Old Forge. Having had Detroit Style pizza before, I knew it was similar. The stretching and baking techniques for the crust are just about the same. The toppings and order of topping are however different.

[Pete-zza]

Detroit-style pizza arrives at KJ’s in Grass Valley.  It is call a “Red Top”.  I never heard it given that name before.

Norma,

Tony Gemignani (and possibly others) has referred to his Detroit style pizza as "Redtop": http://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blog/2011/04/25/oh-yes-tonys-pizza-has-detroit-style-pie/. Tony also uses Red Top on the menu at his restaurant: http://www.tonyspizzanapoletana.com/includes/menu/Fall%20Winter%202012%20proof%206-1.pdf.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma, The Victory Pig pizza that I make is considered an "Old Forge" style pizza. the VP restaurant is in the town of Wyoming, PA between 5-10 miles from Old Forge. Having had Detroit Style pizza before, I knew it was similar. The stretching and baking techniques for the crust are just about the same. The toppings and order of topping are however different.

steel_baker,

I know the Victory Pig pizza you have reversed engineered is considered an “Old Forge” style of pizza.  I also know where the VP restaurant is located.  If I ever find someone to go with me to Victory Pig,  I might also stop at Schiff’s to purchase some brick cheese.  I think Victory Pig is about 2 hrs. away from where I live one way.  I did try one Victory Pig pizza on your thread, but got sidetracked somehow and never tried one again.  I have to get back to your thread and try another Victory Pig pizza one of these days.  Your Victory Pig clone pizzas look dynamite.   

Norma

[norma427]

Norma,

Tony Gemignani (and possibly others) has referred to his Detroit style pizza as "Redtop": http://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blog/2011/04/25/oh-yes-tonys-pizza-has-detroit-style-pie/. Tony also uses Red Top on the menu at his restaurant: http://www.tonyspizzanapoletana.com/includes/menu/Fall%20Winter%202012%20proof%206-1.pdf.

Peter

Peter,

Either my memory is failing me again, or I didn’t read that about the “red top” moniker from Tony Gemignani.  Thanks for referencing the links!  Maybe I will have to call one of my Buddy’s clone pizzas a “Red Top” since I was a redhead in my former life.   Steve asked me yesterday when I am going to name one of the Buddy’s clone pizzas after me.      

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I agree with Steve. Maybe members can submit some possible names for you to use.

I know it is still early but have you detected any customer preferences for particular pizzas or toppings? Or any dislikes?

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I agree with Steve. Maybe members can submit some possible names for you to use.

I know it is still early but have you detected any customer preferences for particular pizzas or toppings? Or any dislikes?

Peter

Peter,

I am open to any members that might want to name some of the Detroit style pizzas I might be offering if they want to.  They can also include what dressings would be used.  I just ask that dressing aren’t too complicated and they might be dressings that I can find easily at market.  I hope in the future I can post a sign that says most of the dressings come fresh from market. 

No, I haven’t detected any customer preferences for any particular pizza or toppings so far.  The customers usually have two or three kinds to choose from if I am on the ball.  Customers will just purchase cheese if that is all I have at the moment.  I have asked customers if they have heard from someone else about my Detroit style pizzas and some have, but I think the name and how the Detroit style pizzas look make customers curious as what they might taste like.  I had a customer Tuesday that said they had been looking at my Detroit style pizzas for a couple of weeks and had wondered what they would taste like.  That customer purchased two different kinds of slices to take home.

Norma

[Chicago Bob]

 Maybe I will have to call one of my Buddy’s clone pizzas a “Red Top” since I was a redhead in my former life.        

Norma

I knew it...I knew it!  Somehow I just knew it!! 

[norma427]

I knew it...I knew it!  Somehow I just knew it!! 

Bob,

How did you know I was a redhead at one time in my life?     My grandfather and aunt were the only other redheads in my family so I guess I took after my grandfather. 

Norma

[Chicago Bob]

Bob,

How did you know I was a redhead at one time in my life?     My grandfather and aunt were the only other redheads in my family so I guess I took after my grandfather. 

Norma

Norma,

My German girlfriend(of 20 yrs. now) is also a redheaded woman...let's just say I have a way of sensing these things. 

                           "Redheads are God’s way of giving the world roses".......

[norma427]

Norma,

My German girlfriend(of 20 yrs. now) is also a redheaded woman...let's just say I have a way of sensing these things. 

                           "Redheads are God’s way of giving the world roses".......

Bob,

Good to hear your girlfriend of 20 yrs. is also a redheaded woman.  I can see why you must have sensed I was a redhead at one time now.  We are a bunch of fiesty buggers at times though.     That was a nice saying you posted about redheads.   

Norma

[gschwim]

Peter,

I might also try some Feta for a Greek Detroit style.

Norma     

Norma,

I wonder:  Is it just a coincidence, your considering a "Greek Detroit style," or did you know that there is (or was, when I lived there) a large Greek community and a stretch of a couple of blocks Downtown, known as Greektown?  Lots of Greek restaurants and every fourth of July, there was a festival, where they would block off the ends of the two blocks and people could mill/dance in the street, plus live music and plenty of Ouzo and Retsina.

Gene

[gschwim]

Bob,

Without Peter’s help on this thread I wouldn’t have come this far.  I didn’t know I was basically making a Buddy’s clone when I started this thread. 

I temper the pressed out dough in the steel pan in the Hatco Unit for 45 minutes.  That also can be done in a home oven with the light on, but it might take a little bit different amount of time.   

The rest period is anywhere between 15-20 minutes.  I still haven’t figured out what is the best rest period time.  You are correct that the rest period is the time before the second knead.  The final dough temperature would depend on what temperature the room temperature is and also what temperature your flour and other ingredients are and also how long you want to cold ferment. 

This dough formulation (before the 0.70% IDY and 75% hydration) can be made as an emergency dough and the final pizza can be ready in a matter of hours.  I did that before on this thread and so did Steve different times.  Steve didn’t post his pictures, or tell about his one experiment at home, but he made 2 doughs that were cold fermented for about a day and then mixed 2 doughs that were emergency doughs and they were baked basically at almost the same time.  Steve told me he really couldn’t really notice much of any difference in the tastes or the way the pizzas baked.

Sometime at home I will have to try 75% hydration with 0.80% IDY.

Norma

Norma,

I'm not surprised that Steve didn't notice much difference between the two doughs.  Same with me.  I'm beginning to think that the long ferments make a difference only in the Neopolitan style, where toppings are minimal and the crust is "the star."  Same with Detroit style, but the crust is cheese, not dough, plus the ingredients are more substantial and there can be more of them.

And regarding dough, for me, what I notice most in a Detroit pizza is the crumb -the lightness and airiness, and the taste of everything together, not so much the taste of the dough.

Gene

[Chicago Bob]

Norma,

I wonder:  Is it just a coincidence, your considering a "Greek Detroit style," or did you know that there is (or was, when I lived there) a large Greek community and a stretch of a couple of blocks Downtown, known as Greektown?  Lots of Greek restaurants and every fourth of July, there was a festival, where they would block off the ends of the two blocks and people could mill/dance in the street, plus live music and plenty of Ouzo and Retsina.

Gene

I've sorta wonder about something similar to this....did this thread spur you onto the Buddy's clone thread Norma? Or am I putting the cart before the horse so to say?  

[gschwim]

Peter,

To answer your question about which lubricant works the best for me it doesn’t really seem to matter if it is Canola oil or the MBF I am currently using.

Norma

Norma,

You might give clarified butter a try.  It's easy to make and I've found that it adds a nice flavor note, compared to "neutral" oils, such as canola or vegetable.  In fact, clarified butter is now my favorite choice for sauteing just about everything.  It makes the best hash browns!

Gene