Author Topic: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 219851 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1525 on: February 20, 2013, 06:20:43 PM »

For anyone that is interested related media article about Shawn Randazzo, co-founder of Detroit Style Pizza Co.  http://www.theunion.com/news/business/4583828-113/pizza-style-detroit-jechura 

Detroit-style pizza arrives at KJís in Grass Valley.  It is call a ďRed TopĒ.  I never heard it given that name before.  Photos of Shawn Randazzo in the slideshow showing how he makes his Detroit style pizza at KJís Pizza at 121 Neal Street, Grass Valley CA.  He taught Kathy and Paul Jerchura how to make Detroit Style Pizza.  The Detroit Style Pizza is being baked in a Blodgett oven.  I canít see the temperature though.  It is also called ďOld ForgeĒ style pizza, which is interesting to me.  I might have to go visit Old Forge, Pa. someday.  I think the article is interesting in how Shawn Randazzo decided to train the Jerchuras and also how the Jerchuras really ate at Buddyís. 

This is KJís Pizza on facebook.  https://www.facebook.com/KjPizza?fref=ts  The onion bread and cheese bread looks very good to me.  I wonder how they are made.  A picture of just their Sicilian crust is also on KJís facebook page.

Related articles to this the above article.  http://www.theunion.com/news/4282002-113/jechura-pizza-detroit-style
http://sierrafoothillsreport.com/2013/01/07/world-renowned-pizza-coming-to-downtown-grass-valley/

I guess the word is now spreading out west now about Detroit style pizzas.  ;D

Norma
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Offline steel_baker

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1526 on: February 20, 2013, 06:33:43 PM »
Norma, The Victory Pig pizza that I make is considered an "Old Forge" style pizza. the VP restaurant is in the town of Wyoming, PA between 5-10 miles from Old Forge. Having had Detroit Style pizza before, I knew it was similar. The stretching and baking techniques for the crust are just about the same. The toppings and order of topping are however different.

steel_baker  :chef:

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1527 on: February 20, 2013, 06:45:32 PM »
Detroit-style pizza arrives at KJís in Grass Valley.  It is call a ďRed TopĒ.  I never heard it given that name before.
Norma,

Tony Gemignani (and possibly others) has referred to his Detroit style pizza as "Redtop": http://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blog/2011/04/25/oh-yes-tonys-pizza-has-detroit-style-pie/. Tony also uses Red Top on the menu at his restaurant: http://www.tonyspizzanapoletana.com/includes/menu/Fall%20Winter%202012%20proof%206-1.pdf.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 07:03:04 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1528 on: February 20, 2013, 07:29:21 PM »
Norma, The Victory Pig pizza that I make is considered an "Old Forge" style pizza. the VP restaurant is in the town of Wyoming, PA between 5-10 miles from Old Forge. Having had Detroit Style pizza before, I knew it was similar. The stretching and baking techniques for the crust are just about the same. The toppings and order of topping are however different.



steel_baker,

I know the Victory Pig pizza you have reversed engineered is considered an ďOld ForgeĒ style of pizza.  I also know where the VP restaurant is located.  If I ever find someone to go with me to Victory Pig,  I might also stop at Schiffís to purchase some brick cheese.  I think Victory Pig is about 2 hrs. away from where I live one way.  I did try one Victory Pig pizza on your thread, but got sidetracked somehow and never tried one again.  I have to get back to your thread and try another Victory Pig pizza one of these days.  Your Victory Pig clone pizzas look dynamite.   :chef:

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1529 on: February 20, 2013, 07:37:37 PM »
Norma,

Tony Gemignani (and possibly others) has referred to his Detroit style pizza as "Redtop": http://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blog/2011/04/25/oh-yes-tonys-pizza-has-detroit-style-pie/. Tony also uses Red Top on the menu at his restaurant: http://www.tonyspizzanapoletana.com/includes/menu/Fall%20Winter%202012%20proof%206-1.pdf.

Peter

Peter,

Either my memory is failing me again, or I didnít read that about the ďred topĒ moniker from Tony Gemignani.  Thanks for referencing the links!  Maybe I will have to call one of my Buddyís clone pizzas a ďRed TopĒ since I was a redhead in my former life.  :-D Steve asked me yesterday when I am going to name one of the Buddyís clone pizzas after me.      

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1530 on: February 20, 2013, 07:47:41 PM »
Norma,

I agree with Steve. Maybe members can submit some possible names for you to use.

I know it is still early but have you detected any customer preferences for particular pizzas or toppings? Or any dislikes?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1531 on: February 20, 2013, 08:11:07 PM »
Norma,

I agree with Steve. Maybe members can submit some possible names for you to use.

I know it is still early but have you detected any customer preferences for particular pizzas or toppings? Or any dislikes?

Peter

Peter,

I am open to any members that might want to name some of the Detroit style pizzas I might be offering if they want to.  They can also include what dressings would be used.  I just ask that dressing arenít too complicated and they might be dressings that I can find easily at market.  I hope in the future I can post a sign that says most of the dressings come fresh from market. 

No, I havenít detected any customer preferences for any particular pizza or toppings so far.  The customers usually have two or three kinds to choose from if I am on the ball.  Customers will just purchase cheese if that is all I have at the moment.  I have asked customers if they have heard from someone else about my Detroit style pizzas and some have, but I think the name and how the Detroit style pizzas look make customers curious as what they might taste like.  I had a customer Tuesday that said they had been looking at my Detroit style pizzas for a couple of weeks and had wondered what they would taste like.  That customer purchased two different kinds of slices to take home.

Norma
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1532 on: February 20, 2013, 08:47:26 PM »
 Maybe I will have to call one of my Buddyís clone pizzas a ďRed TopĒ since I was a redhead in my former life.  :-D      

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1533 on: February 20, 2013, 09:22:40 PM »
I knew it...I knew it!  Somehow I just knew it!!  >:D

Bob,

How did you know I was a redhead at one time in my life?   :-D  >:D My grandfather and aunt were the only other redheads in my family so I guess I took after my grandfather. 

Norma
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1534 on: February 20, 2013, 10:05:48 PM »
Bob,

How did you know I was a redhead at one time in my life?   :-D  >:D My grandfather and aunt were the only other redheads in my family so I guess I took after my grandfather. 

Norma
Norma,

My German girlfriend(of 20 yrs. now) is also a redheaded woman...let's just say I have a way of sensing these things.  ;)

                           "Redheads are Godís way of giving the world roses"....... :-*
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1535 on: February 20, 2013, 10:12:25 PM »
Norma,

My German girlfriend(of 20 yrs. now) is also a redheaded woman...let's just say I have a way of sensing these things.  ;)

                           "Redheads are Godís way of giving the world roses"....... :-*

Bob,

Good to hear your girlfriend of 20 yrs. is also a redheaded woman.  I can see why you must have sensed I was a redhead at one time now.  We are a bunch of fiesty buggers at times though.   :-*  That was a nice saying you posted about redheads.   ;D

Norma
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Offline gschwim

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1536 on: February 20, 2013, 11:22:07 PM »
Peter,

I might also try some Feta for a Greek Detroit style.

Norma     

Norma,

I wonder:  Is it just a coincidence, your considering a "Greek Detroit style," or did you know that there is (or was, when I lived there) a large Greek community and a stretch of a couple of blocks Downtown, known as Greektown?  Lots of Greek restaurants and every fourth of July, there was a festival, where they would block off the ends of the two blocks and people could mill/dance in the street, plus live music and plenty of Ouzo and Retsina.

Gene

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1537 on: February 20, 2013, 11:28:45 PM »
Bob,

Without Peterís help on this thread I wouldnít have come this far.  I didnít know I was basically making a Buddyís clone when I started this thread.  :-D

I temper the pressed out dough in the steel pan in the Hatco Unit for 45 minutes.  That also can be done in a home oven with the light on, but it might take a little bit different amount of time.   

The rest period is anywhere between 15-20 minutes.  I still havenít figured out what is the best rest period time.  You are correct that the rest period is the time before the second knead.  The final dough temperature would depend on what temperature the room temperature is and also what temperature your flour and other ingredients are and also how long you want to cold ferment. 

This dough formulation (before the 0.70% IDY and 75% hydration) can be made as an emergency dough and the final pizza can be ready in a matter of hours.  I did that before on this thread and so did Steve different times.  Steve didnít post his pictures, or tell about his one experiment at home, but he made 2 doughs that were cold fermented for about a day and then mixed 2 doughs that were emergency doughs and they were baked basically at almost the same time.  Steve told me he really couldnít really notice much of any difference in the tastes or the way the pizzas baked.

Sometime at home I will have to try 75% hydration with 0.80% IDY.

Norma

Norma,

I'm not surprised that Steve didn't notice much difference between the two doughs.  Same with me.  I'm beginning to think that the long ferments make a difference only in the Neopolitan style, where toppings are minimal and the crust is "the star."  Same with Detroit style, but the crust is cheese, not dough, plus the ingredients are more substantial and there can be more of them.

And regarding dough, for me, what I notice most in a Detroit pizza is the crumb -the lightness and airiness, and the taste of everything together, not so much the taste of the dough.

Gene

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1538 on: February 20, 2013, 11:30:15 PM »
Norma,

I wonder:  Is it just a coincidence, your considering a "Greek Detroit style," or did you know that there is (or was, when I lived there) a large Greek community and a stretch of a couple of blocks Downtown, known as Greektown?  Lots of Greek restaurants and every fourth of July, there was a festival, where they would block off the ends of the two blocks and people could mill/dance in the street, plus live music and plenty of Ouzo and Retsina.

Gene

I've sorta wonder about something similar to this....did this thread spur you onto the Buddy's clone thread Norma? Or am I putting the cart before the horse so to say?  :)
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Offline gschwim

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1539 on: February 20, 2013, 11:34:24 PM »
Peter,

To answer your question about which lubricant works the best for me it doesnít really seem to matter if it is Canola oil or the MBF I am currently using.

Norma

Norma,

You might give clarified butter a try.  It's easy to make and I've found that it adds a nice flavor note, compared to "neutral" oils, such as canola or vegetable.  In fact, clarified butter is now my favorite choice for sauteing just about everything.  It makes the best hash browns!

Gene

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1540 on: February 20, 2013, 11:45:19 PM »

I guess the word is now spreading out west now about Detroit style pizzas.  ;D

Norma

Yes, and Detroit style hot dogs, too!  (http://www.coneydogla.com)

Gene

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1541 on: February 20, 2013, 11:57:25 PM »
Same with me.  I'm beginning to think that the long ferments make a difference only in the Neopolitan style, where toppings are minimal and the crust is "the star."  Same with Detroit style, but the crust is cheese, not dough, plus the ingredients are more substantial and there can be more of them.



Gene,
That's a pretty broad sweep of the brush...but I believe I know what you are saying.
There are other styles where the fermented crust is "the star"....NY pie being a pretty obvious one along with Chicago Deep Dish....interesting enough, even a good cracker falls into this category along with others.
I make a lot of Chicago/Midwest thin crust pizza and feel it has always been generally considered that the crust is merely the "vehicle" to deliver the rest of the goodness. Never the less, that crust has perimeters to be followed to be acceptable. But given that, it is still just the "vehicle" if you will. Like you have pointed out about the Detroit style.
Not trying to object to your statement here, Gene....just saying that there are many ways of looking at a doughs purpose and it's relative results to the pie.
Good pizza sure does taste good though don't it.... 8)
Bob
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 11:59:34 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline pete zappie

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1542 on: February 21, 2013, 09:26:04 AM »
norma, what a great thread ! i love making pizza and even more to see people enjoy them, sometimes people i have never met show up at my door looking for pies.  these detroit style pizzas are a great addition to my hobby, thanks to you and peter for all your hard work.

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1543 on: February 21, 2013, 09:56:32 AM »
Norma,

I wonder:  Is it just a coincidence, your considering a "Greek Detroit style," or did you know that there is (or was, when I lived there) a large Greek community and a stretch of a couple of blocks Downtown, known as Greektown?  Lots of Greek restaurants and every fourth of July, there was a festival, where they would block off the ends of the two blocks and people could mill/dance in the street, plus live music and plenty of Ouzo and Retsina.

Gene


Gene,

I am aware of what you might be posting about in saying Greek style pizzas.  Steve (Ev) and I have tried out different pizzas on the Greek thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.0.html If you look in about the middle of the thread forward you can see the Greek style pizzas Steve and I made with Peterís help.  Peter knows a lot about Greek style pizzas.  Greek style pizzas are something like Detroit style pizzas, but in my opinion they arenít the same.  I do offer Greek style pizzas at market, but they really arenít real Greek style pizzas.  I just use my regular Lehmann dough for most of them.

Norma,

You might give clarified butter a try.  It's easy to make and I've found that it adds a nice flavor note, compared to "neutral" oils, such as canola or vegetable.  In fact, clarified butter is now my favorite choice for sauteing just about everything.  It makes the best hash browns!

Gene


I might give clarified butter a try some day, but right now I am too busy with trying to keep this moving forward at market.  I did make cultured butter from another thread here on the forum.

Norma,

I'm not surprised that Steve didn't notice much difference between the two doughs.  Same with me.  I'm beginning to think that the long ferments make a difference only in the Neopolitan style, where toppings are minimal and the crust is "the star."  Same with Detroit style, but the crust is cheese, not dough, plus the ingredients are more substantial and there can be more of them.

And regarding dough, for me, what I notice most in a Detroit pizza is the crumb -the lightness and airiness, and the taste of everything together, not so much the taste of the dough.

Gene


I have tried many different experiments with other styles of pizzas and different ferment times (one up to 28 days) and also if starters/soakers are used do make a difference to me in the taste of the crusts.  For this Buddyís Detroit style pizza though I never tried a longer ferment time of more than one day.  I really canít say if that will make any difference in the taste of the crust, but for me I think what works with a Buddyís clone dough pizza whether it is an emergency dough or a one day cold ferment, is everything comes together well in terms of the dough being basically fried in the pan, the caramelized edges and also the kinds of cheese/or cheeses that are used.  I am only using a one day cold fermented Buddyís clone dough at market because that is what works for me. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1544 on: February 21, 2013, 10:08:42 AM »
I've sorta wonder about something similar to this....did this thread spur you onto the Buddy's clone thread Norma? Or am I putting the cart before the horse so to say?  :)

Bob,

No, this thread didnít start like that.  If you look at my first post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.0.html you can see that Trenton Bill gave me the recipe I tried along with Bill (the moderators) sauce.  If you look at Peterís post at Reply 1165  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg231891.html#msg231891 you can see what happened with this thread when he answered Gene. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1545 on: February 21, 2013, 10:16:40 AM »
norma, what a great thread ! i love making pizza and even more to see people enjoy them, sometimes people i have never met show up at my door looking for pies.  these detroit style pizzas are a great addition to my hobby, thanks to you and peter for all your hard work.

pete,

I am glad you love making pizza.  Making pizza is a fun journey.  I am also glad you liked the Detroit style pizzas you have tried from this thread.  Your Detroit style pizzas look very good and so do your other pizzas in your first photo.  ;) Did you use a Buddyís clone emergency dough from this thread, or cold ferment the dough?

Norma
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Offline pete zappie

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1546 on: February 21, 2013, 11:03:04 AM »
norma,
thank you for the kind words! I prefer to cold ferment all my dough in plastic as you do. however the recipies for the dough are similar i think i tried to find both but couldnt, here is what i do  -----100%, 71%, 1.75%, 0.8%, is this right? i will be increasing the hydro to 75% for the next batch tomrrow, for the weekend. ill prolly make a dozen or so.

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1547 on: February 21, 2013, 11:59:06 AM »
norma,
thank you for the kind words! I prefer to cold ferment all my dough in plastic as you do. however the recipies for the dough are similar i think i tried to find both but couldnt, here is what i do  -----100%, 71%, 1.75%, 0.8%, is this right? i will be increasing the hydro to 75% for the next batch tomrrow, for the weekend. ill prolly make a dozen or so.


pete,

The most recent dough formulation when I mixed the dough on Monday and then used it on Tuesday to make the Detroit style pizzas is shown at Reply 1497 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg238186.html#msg238186  That is the formulation with 0.70% IDY and 75% hydration.  The dough ball weights I used were 9.5 oz for a 8Ēx10Ē pan.  I didnít use a TF in that formulation, but I usually use a TF of 0.1218 and use a bowl residue compensation of 2.0% and then scaled the dough ball back to 9.5 oz.  The final dough temperature and how I mixed the dough can be seen at Reply 1498 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg238187.html#msg238187 fourth picture down.

That formulation seemed to work well when the pizzas were made later in the day.  The same formulation should work well if the pizzas are made anytime the next day.

You can try 0.80% IDY with 75% hydration though.

That is a crazy belly smiley photo you posted.  :-D Good luck with your pizzas! 

Norma
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1548 on: February 21, 2013, 12:12:43 PM »
I'm partial to this one:
Pizza is not bread. Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline gschwim

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1549 on: February 21, 2013, 12:59:01 PM »
Gene,
That's a pretty broad sweep of the brush...but I believe I know what you are saying.
There are other styles where the fermented crust is "the star"....NY pie being a pretty obvious one along with Chicago Deep Dish....interesting enough, even a good cracker falls into this category along with others.
I make a lot of Chicago/Midwest thin crust pizza and feel it has always been generally considered that the crust is merely the "vehicle" to deliver the rest of the goodness. Never the less, that crust has perimeters to be followed to be acceptable. But given that, it is still just the "vehicle" if you will. Like you have pointed out about the Detroit style.
Not trying to object to your statement here, Gene....just saying that there are many ways of looking at a doughs purpose and it's relative results to the pie.
Good pizza sure does taste good though don't it.... 8)
Bob

Bob,

I wonder if you've heard the old Woody Allen joke about the two old ladies trying a new restaurant.

"This dish tastes terrible," says the first old lady.

"Yes," says the other one, "and such small portions!"

So as much as I respect the nuances of fine pizza making, my main memory from my youth in Detroit, as a young college student, who required that every pizza consumed in a group setting be accompanied by numerous pitchers of beer, is that the primary criterion in evaluating pizzas was whether they gave you a lot of cheese.  And after enough beer, even that didn't matter.

Gene


« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 02:16:31 PM by gschwim »


 

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