Author Topic: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 217957 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1550 on: February 21, 2013, 01:11:54 PM »
I'm partial to this one:

Craig,

New one for me to see.  I do think I am partial to that one now.   ^^^

Norma
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Offline redox

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1551 on: February 21, 2013, 01:37:40 PM »
I'm thinking of trying one of these pizzas tonight, is there any way I can have one ready for dinner, or is it a next day kind of dough? I stopped at a local Italian deli and got all sorts of stuff I'd like to try on it, like Mortadella. They had Margherita Pepperoni for $3.99/lb. I couldn't resist, I got 4 pounds, it's my current favorite. If I can't have one ready for tonight, I'll make one for tomorrow.
I almost forgot, what is Carmelina Sauce?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1552 on: February 21, 2013, 01:47:20 PM »
There is no reason a same day DS wouldn't be just fine. I don't have a good formula to give you, but I'm pretty sure Norma has done one. If all  else fails, find a NY style dough with a fermentation window that fits your schedule and up the HR to 75%. I'd use at least 3% oil if the formula calls for less. Ball it, let it rest for a couple hours, stretch to fit the pans as best you can, and give it a final few hours rise in the pans.
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Offline redox

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1553 on: February 21, 2013, 01:56:19 PM »
There is no reason a same day DS wouldn't be just fine. I don't have a good formula to give you, but I'm pretty sure Norma has done one. If all  else fails, find a NY style dough with a fermentation window that fits your schedule and up the HR to 75%. I'd use at least 3% oil if the formula calls for less. Ball it, let it rest for a couple hours, stretch to fit the pans as best you can, and give it a final few hours rise in the pans.
Thanks for the quick reply. I've already made steel_baker's excellent Victory Pig pizza, and it was great!. That one had a 67% hydration. What is the advantage of the higher hydration of 75%? As you can see, I've got a lot to learn. I'll try not to bother you with too many questions. Oh, should I use more yeast for a same day pizza? Crap, right after saying I'd try not to bother you with too many questions, I asked another one. Sorry.

Offline gschwim

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1554 on: February 21, 2013, 02:23:27 PM »
I'm thinking of trying one of these pizzas tonight, is there any way I can have one ready for dinner, or is it a next day kind of dough? I stopped at a local Italian deli and got all sorts of stuff I'd like to try on it, like Mortadella. They had Margherita Pepperoni for $3.99/lb. I couldn't resist, I got 4 pounds, it's my current favorite. If I can't have one ready for tonight, I'll make one for tomorrow.
I almost forgot, what is Carmelina Sauce?

I find that if I make a dough consisting of 500 g of flour, if I use 7 g (1 package) of instant dry yeast and put the dough in a warm place (this being winter, I set it on the floor about a foot from my space heater), the dough will double in about an hour - looks like nothing's happening for the first 45 minutes, then rises quickly.

You can adjust proportionately the amount of IDY to the amount of flour you're using, but the basic principle is, the more yeast, the faster the rise.  But also be aware also that the more yeast, the higher the rise, too, so the dough, after doubling, will continue to expand if you do not use it within a few minutes.  If you wait long enough, it could triple (which may not be a bad thing, if you seek an airier dough) and maybe continue to expand after that.

Or, at least, that's my belief.  Other, more experienced participants on this thread could have a different view.  If they weigh in and disagree with me, you probably would be better off following their advice than mine.

Gene

Offline pete zappie

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1555 on: February 21, 2013, 02:27:20 PM »
that pic i just posted today took about three hours from start plus 15 min to bake. the idy was 1.2 %. that was room temp rise, warm rise as norma does yea about an hour

Offline redox

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1556 on: February 21, 2013, 02:29:29 PM »
I find that if I make a dough consisting of 500 g of flour, if I use 7 g (1 package) of instant dry yeast and put the dough in a warm place (this being winter, I set it on the floor about a foot from my space heater), the dough will double in about an hour - looks like nothing's happening for the first 45 minutes, then rises quickly.

You can adjust proportionately the amount of IDY to the amount of flour you're using, but the basic principle is, the more yeast, the faster the rise.  But also be aware also that the more yeast, the higher the rise, too, so the dough, after doubling, will continue to expand if you do not use it within a few minutes.  If you wait long enough, it could triple (which may not be a bad thing, if you seek an airier dough) and maybe continue to expand after that.

Or, at least, that's my belief.  Other, more experienced participants on this thread could have a different view.  If they weigh in and disagree with me, you probably would be better off following their advice than mine.

Gene

Thanks for the advice, I'd better get cracking soon or it'll be ready too late for dinner. I've never had a Detroit style pizza, just the Victory Pig clone. It does sound really tasty, though. I've got some pulled pork leftovers that I bet would be good on a pizza.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1557 on: February 21, 2013, 02:34:48 PM »
Thanks for the quick reply. I've already made steel_baker's excellent Victory Pig pizza, and it was great!. That one had a 67% hydration. What is the advantage of the higher hydration of 75%? As you can see, I've got a lot to learn. I'll try not to bother you with too many questions. Oh, should I use more yeast for a same day pizza? Crap, right after saying I'd try not to bother you with too many questions, I asked another one. Sorry.


I like the crumb better with a higher hydration, and I think it will make it a little easier for you to get the dough stretched all the way to the edges of the pan which is pretty important for DS. I'm sure 67% is fine. I looked at SB's VP formula (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13048.msg161538.html#msg161538) and it looks to be a 3ish hour workflow? Am I missing something? He actually uses about 2X as much IDY as I would have expected given his times. I would have thought IDY would be in the 0.8%-1.0% range for a 3 hour rise. Perhaps his room temperature is on the low side? I'd probably up the oil to 2-3%, and I might bring down the yeast a little, but if you have used the formula and it worked for you why change the yeast.
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Offline redox

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1558 on: February 21, 2013, 02:36:36 PM »
that pic i just posted today took about three hours from start plus 15 min to bake. the idy was 1.2 %. that was room temp rise, warm rise as norma does yea about an hour

I hope you mean the dough formula you posted and not the actual pic!  :P
Thanks for the info, based on what you say, I think I'll give your formula a shot. Thanks for the help.


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1559 on: February 21, 2013, 02:45:53 PM »
Bob,

I wonder if you've heard the old Woody Allen joke about the two old ladies trying a new restaurant.

"This dish tastes terrible," says the first old lady.

"Yes," says the other one, "and such small portions!"

So as much as I respect the nuances of fine pizza making, my main memory from my youth in Detroit, as a young college student, who required that every pizza consumed in a group setting be accompanied by numerous pitchers of beer, is that the primary criterion in evaluating pizzas was whether they gave you a lot of cheese.  And after enough beer, even that didn't matter.

Gene



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Offline redox

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1560 on: February 21, 2013, 02:46:33 PM »
TXCraig1:

The VP was the first pizza I tried using a dough formula from this site and it worked just as he said it would. Yeah, it was about 3 hours, it took the second knockdown to get the dough into the corners of the pan. The next time I do this I should make two dough balls so I can experiment a bit. I was very impressed by your pizza oven setup, your pizzas look beautiful. I gotta go make some dough, thanks for your help.

Offline redox

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1561 on: February 21, 2013, 02:48:56 PM »
Chicago Bob
I'd like to give Chicago thin crust a shot soon, maybe I could ask you some q's then?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1562 on: February 21, 2013, 02:49:51 PM »
Please post about the pizza and give some crumb shots. I'm very interested in non-refrigerated fermentation times, so I'm curious to hear your formula and fermentation times and temperature and see how it comes out.
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1563 on: February 21, 2013, 03:01:05 PM »

I almost forgot, what is Carmelina Sauce?
redox....
ps, glad to help anytime over on my Chi thin pics thread.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 03:03:34 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1564 on: February 21, 2013, 03:18:52 PM »
I'm thinking of trying one of these pizzas tonight, is there any way I can have one ready for dinner, or is it a next day kind of dough? I stopped at a local Italian deli and got all sorts of stuff I'd like to try on it, like Mortadella. They had Margherita Pepperoni for $3.99/lb. I couldn't resist, I got 4 pounds, it's my current favorite. If I can't have one ready for tonight, I'll make one for tomorrow.
I almost forgot, what is Carmelina Sauce?



Jay,

I think the best advice I could give you if you want to try a emergency Detroit dough pizza is to use the expanded dough calculation tool and put 9.5 oz. for the weight of a dough ball for a 8ďx10ď steel pan or 19 oz. for a bigger steel pan.  Maybe use 0.1218 as the TF if you donít want to use a dough weight for a dough ball, then add a bowl residue compensation (I use 2.0%), use 0.80 IDY and either 71.023% water like I was using, or if you prefer 75% hydration like I am doing now.  I am now using 1.75% Kosher salt in my formulation, but you could change that to regular salt if you want.  KAAP flour should work okay.  What kind of flours do you have to work with?   Maybe you should try to use warmer water (but not to hot as to harm the yeast) and try to get a higher final dough temperature.  I mix the salt in with the water and the IDY in with the flour, but you can try to mix any way you want.  Form a dough ball and press it out. Cover the pan so the dough doesn't dry out. I donít put in any oil in my Buddyís clone dough because Buddyís doesnít either.  Turn you oven light on and wait until the dough has tempered enough and then add your dressings and bake.  If you made a Victory Pig pizza you shouldnít have any problems trying to make a Buddyís clone.  I donít think you have to worry about Carmelina Sauce, but can use whatever sauce you like.  The Carmelina Sauce was posted about in my first post.

I could find you the link to where I made a pizza as an emergency dough at home, but I think you will be okay without it.  If the link really is needed I will find it.  Any other questions just ask.

Norma
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Offline gschwim

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1565 on: February 21, 2013, 03:29:56 PM »
redox....
ps, glad to help anytime over on my Chi thin pics thread.

For anyone who's interested in flavor and saving money, too, one of the cooking magazines (America's Test Kitchen?) did a comparison test of canned whole and diced tomatoes.  They rated Hunt's number one.  Got some at the local market the other day, on special, for 99 cents/can and they're excellent.  They have both with and without basil.

Here's a link to someone named Kate (http://cookaholics.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1033&start=30) agreeing with me that (a) San Marzano tomatoes are overrated and (b) Hunt's is better.

Try some and see if you don't agree with Kate and me.  Since trying them myself, I only use Hunt's for all my recipes, not just pizza.  I watch the local supermarkets for specials and pick up a few cans of both whole and crushed tomatoes whenever they're available.

Gene

Offline redox

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1566 on: February 21, 2013, 04:03:59 PM »
Please post about the pizza and give some crumb shots. I'm very interested in non-refrigerated fermentation times, so I'm curious to hear your formula and fermentation times and temperature and see how it comes out.
I'd be happy to. I'll have to hold off my wife with one hand while I snap pix, she really likes this style. It's new to both of us.


Offline redox

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1567 on: February 21, 2013, 04:14:24 PM »
redox....
ps, glad to help anytime over on my Chi thin pics thread.
Thanks for the offer, Bob. I want to make a few more Detroit style pizzas and then try a Chicago thin crust, I've only had Chicago DD so that will be something new for me. Next time I buy a pizza from my favorite local dive that's been family owned since the '50's I'd like to post some pics somewhere. They've got a unique crust, at least for this town but I can't believe that it's unique for the whole country. It's a thin, milti-layered crust, almost pastry like. Perhaps someone will have an idea how it's made.

Offline redox

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1568 on: February 21, 2013, 04:19:24 PM »
Norma, thanks for the advice and I definitely will try that next time. I was running out of time to get it started in time for dinner so I went with the steel_baker's Victory Pig dough. I've made it before so I figured that it would be the quickest to make. Once again, I really appreciate your detailed reply and will add it to my recipe database to use the next time.

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1569 on: February 21, 2013, 04:23:39 PM »
Shawn Randazzo of Detroit Style Pizza Co. says in this interview that he plans a third location for the Detroit Style Pizza Co. in the spring and also planning on a program that will assist in training, support/consulting/certification programs for anyone that is interested in learning to make Detroit style pizzas.  More can be read at near the bottom of this article if interested.  http://www.revention.com/customers/interviews/Shawn-Randazzo

Norma
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Offline redox

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1570 on: February 21, 2013, 08:17:57 PM »
I just realized that my pizza morphed into something that may not belong in this thread and if someone wants it moved then please ask a moderator to do that. I didn't intend it to not be Two Bill's Pizza when I started. I'm just posting this info here so those who might have q's can find it.
In fact, if you know where this should go, let me know and I'll ask to have it moved.

5.66 ounces King Arthur Bread Flour (100%)
3.79 ounces Bottled Water (66.99%)
0.11 ounces IDY (1.96%)
0.11 ounces Mortonís Kosher Salt (1.96%)
0.06 ounces Olive Oil (0.98%)
0.11 ounces Sugar (1.96%)
9.84 Total (173.84%)

Kitchen temperature 66 įF
Bottled water 51.6 įF

Mixed the dough until it came together in a ball, then covered it for 15 minutes.
Kneaded with the ďCĒ dough hook on Kitchen Aid for 8 minutes.
Dough temperature was 69 įF.
Weight of dough ball was 9.8 ounces.

Itís chilly outside today (25 įF) and the kitchen was 66 įF so I was concerned that the rise time might be longer than our appetites would like. So after about 45 minutes at kitchen temperature I turned on my electric oven for 15 seconds to warm it up to 82 įF and I put the panned dough inside. (I sprayed the pan with Pam for the Grill and dropped in 0.60 ounces of peanut oil before putting in the dough.)
At the 2 hour mark (including the original 45 minutes) I knocked down the dough and put it back into the oven for another hour.
At the end of the third hour I topped the dough with a 50/50 mix of Mozzarella and Vt. White Chedar. Placed 20 pepperoni slices over the cheese. Tore up some Mortadella and placed it along with some Hickory Smoked Pulled Pork from Costco. And some mushrooms.
I put one line of sauce on top before baking and the second line after the pizza was done to compare the two ways of doing it.
I think I pressed the dough too hard against the sides of the pan because I didnít get very much browning of the White Cheddar on the side of the pizza.
Nonetheless, I think itís the best pizza Iíve ever done. It was terrific.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1571 on: February 21, 2013, 08:26:45 PM »

In fact, if you know where this should go, let me know and I'll ask to have it moved.

 


It belongs at my house, wrap it up an send right away....Wow!!  :chef:
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 08:28:16 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1572 on: February 21, 2013, 08:29:50 PM »
Jay,

You did a terrific job. You have provided yet more evidence of the appeal of the Detroit style pizza.

Since your dough formulation was not out in left field for a Detroit style pizza, I think we can leave your post in this thread. However, if you plan to make more of such pizzas, you may want to start a new thread so that your work isn't buried in the middle of this thread. It deserves its own place in the sun.

Did you detect much of a difference between the two stripes of sauce?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1573 on: February 21, 2013, 08:36:46 PM »
Jay,

I agree that your Detroit style pizza looks stunning!  :chef: I agree with Peter that if you decide to use the same dough formulation you used you deserve to have you own thread.  I love all those dressings you added.  Congrats!

Norma
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Offline redox

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1574 on: February 21, 2013, 08:43:58 PM »
Jay,

You did a terrific job. You have provided yet more evidence of the appeal of the Detroit style pizza.

Since your dough formulation was not out in left field for a Detroit style pizza, I think we can leave your post in this thread. However, if you plan to make more of such pizzas, you may want to start a new thread so that your work isn't buried in the middle of this thread. It deserves its own place in the sun.

Did you detect much of a difference between the two stripes of sauce?

Peter
The baked stripe had a stronger, sharper tomato taste. Some of the water cooked off in the oven so that seems right. The stripe added post baking had a brighter, fresher taste.
I liked them both and I may continue to do it this way. Each of us got a slice of both and my wife liked them both, also.


 

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