Author Topic: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 133049 times)

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Offline gschwim

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1540 on: February 20, 2013, 11:45:19 PM »

I guess the word is now spreading out west now about Detroit style pizzas.  ;D

Norma


Yes, and Detroit style hot dogs, too!  (http://www.coneydogla.com)

Gene


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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1541 on: February 20, 2013, 11:57:25 PM »
Same with me.  I'm beginning to think that the long ferments make a difference only in the Neopolitan style, where toppings are minimal and the crust is "the star."  Same with Detroit style, but the crust is cheese, not dough, plus the ingredients are more substantial and there can be more of them.



Gene,
That's a pretty broad sweep of the brush...but I believe I know what you are saying.
There are other styles where the fermented crust is "the star"....NY pie being a pretty obvious one along with Chicago Deep Dish....interesting enough, even a good cracker falls into this category along with others.
I make a lot of Chicago/Midwest thin crust pizza and feel it has always been generally considered that the crust is merely the "vehicle" to deliver the rest of the goodness. Never the less, that crust has perimeters to be followed to be acceptable. But given that, it is still just the "vehicle" if you will. Like you have pointed out about the Detroit style.
Not trying to object to your statement here, Gene....just saying that there are many ways of looking at a doughs purpose and it's relative results to the pie.
Good pizza sure does taste good though don't it.... 8)
Bob
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 11:59:34 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline pete zappie

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1542 on: February 21, 2013, 09:26:04 AM »
norma, what a great thread ! i love making pizza and even more to see people enjoy them, sometimes people i have never met show up at my door looking for pies.  these detroit style pizzas are a great addition to my hobby, thanks to you and peter for all your hard work.

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1543 on: February 21, 2013, 09:56:32 AM »
Norma,

I wonder:  Is it just a coincidence, your considering a "Greek Detroit style," or did you know that there is (or was, when I lived there) a large Greek community and a stretch of a couple of blocks Downtown, known as Greektown?  Lots of Greek restaurants and every fourth of July, there was a festival, where they would block off the ends of the two blocks and people could mill/dance in the street, plus live music and plenty of Ouzo and Retsina.

Gene



Gene,

I am aware of what you might be posting about in saying Greek style pizzas.  Steve (Ev) and I have tried out different pizzas on the Greek thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.0.html If you look in about the middle of the thread forward you can see the Greek style pizzas Steve and I made with Peterís help.  Peter knows a lot about Greek style pizzas.  Greek style pizzas are something like Detroit style pizzas, but in my opinion they arenít the same.  I do offer Greek style pizzas at market, but they really arenít real Greek style pizzas.  I just use my regular Lehmann dough for most of them.

Norma,

You might give clarified butter a try.  It's easy to make and I've found that it adds a nice flavor note, compared to "neutral" oils, such as canola or vegetable.  In fact, clarified butter is now my favorite choice for sauteing just about everything.  It makes the best hash browns!

Gene



I might give clarified butter a try some day, but right now I am too busy with trying to keep this moving forward at market.  I did make cultured butter from another thread here on the forum.

Norma,

I'm not surprised that Steve didn't notice much difference between the two doughs.  Same with me.  I'm beginning to think that the long ferments make a difference only in the Neopolitan style, where toppings are minimal and the crust is "the star."  Same with Detroit style, but the crust is cheese, not dough, plus the ingredients are more substantial and there can be more of them.

And regarding dough, for me, what I notice most in a Detroit pizza is the crumb -the lightness and airiness, and the taste of everything together, not so much the taste of the dough.

Gene



I have tried many different experiments with other styles of pizzas and different ferment times (one up to 28 days) and also if starters/soakers are used do make a difference to me in the taste of the crusts.  For this Buddyís Detroit style pizza though I never tried a longer ferment time of more than one day.  I really canít say if that will make any difference in the taste of the crust, but for me I think what works with a Buddyís clone dough pizza whether it is an emergency dough or a one day cold ferment, is everything comes together well in terms of the dough being basically fried in the pan, the caramelized edges and also the kinds of cheese/or cheeses that are used.  I am only using a one day cold fermented Buddyís clone dough at market because that is what works for me. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1544 on: February 21, 2013, 10:08:42 AM »
I've sorta wonder about something similar to this....did this thread spur you onto the Buddy's clone thread Norma? Or am I putting the cart before the horse so to say?  :)


Bob,

No, this thread didnít start like that.  If you look at my first post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.0.html you can see that Trenton Bill gave me the recipe I tried along with Bill (the moderators) sauce.  If you look at Peterís post at Reply 1165  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg231891.html#msg231891 you can see what happened with this thread when he answered Gene. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1545 on: February 21, 2013, 10:16:40 AM »
norma, what a great thread ! i love making pizza and even more to see people enjoy them, sometimes people i have never met show up at my door looking for pies.  these detroit style pizzas are a great addition to my hobby, thanks to you and peter for all your hard work.

pete,

I am glad you love making pizza.  Making pizza is a fun journey.  I am also glad you liked the Detroit style pizzas you have tried from this thread.  Your Detroit style pizzas look very good and so do your other pizzas in your first photo.  ;) Did you use a Buddyís clone emergency dough from this thread, or cold ferment the dough?

Norma
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Offline pete zappie

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1546 on: February 21, 2013, 11:03:04 AM »
norma,
thank you for the kind words! I prefer to cold ferment all my dough in plastic as you do. however the recipies for the dough are similar i think i tried to find both but couldnt, here is what i do  -----100%, 71%, 1.75%, 0.8%, is this right? i will be increasing the hydro to 75% for the next batch tomrrow, for the weekend. ill prolly make a dozen or so.

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1547 on: February 21, 2013, 11:59:06 AM »
norma,
thank you for the kind words! I prefer to cold ferment all my dough in plastic as you do. however the recipies for the dough are similar i think i tried to find both but couldnt, here is what i do  -----100%, 71%, 1.75%, 0.8%, is this right? i will be increasing the hydro to 75% for the next batch tomrrow, for the weekend. ill prolly make a dozen or so.



pete,

The most recent dough formulation when I mixed the dough on Monday and then used it on Tuesday to make the Detroit style pizzas is shown at Reply 1497 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg238186.html#msg238186  That is the formulation with 0.70% IDY and 75% hydration.  The dough ball weights I used were 9.5 oz for a 8Ēx10Ē pan.  I didnít use a TF in that formulation, but I usually use a TF of 0.1218 and use a bowl residue compensation of 2.0% and then scaled the dough ball back to 9.5 oz.  The final dough temperature and how I mixed the dough can be seen at Reply 1498 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg238187.html#msg238187 fourth picture down.

That formulation seemed to work well when the pizzas were made later in the day.  The same formulation should work well if the pizzas are made anytime the next day.

You can try 0.80% IDY with 75% hydration though.

That is a crazy belly smiley photo you posted.  :-D Good luck with your pizzas! 

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1548 on: February 21, 2013, 12:12:43 PM »
I'm partial to this one:
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline gschwim

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1549 on: February 21, 2013, 12:59:01 PM »
Gene,
That's a pretty broad sweep of the brush...but I believe I know what you are saying.
There are other styles where the fermented crust is "the star"....NY pie being a pretty obvious one along with Chicago Deep Dish....interesting enough, even a good cracker falls into this category along with others.
I make a lot of Chicago/Midwest thin crust pizza and feel it has always been generally considered that the crust is merely the "vehicle" to deliver the rest of the goodness. Never the less, that crust has perimeters to be followed to be acceptable. But given that, it is still just the "vehicle" if you will. Like you have pointed out about the Detroit style.
Not trying to object to your statement here, Gene....just saying that there are many ways of looking at a doughs purpose and it's relative results to the pie.
Good pizza sure does taste good though don't it.... 8)
Bob

Bob,

I wonder if you've heard the old Woody Allen joke about the two old ladies trying a new restaurant.

"This dish tastes terrible," says the first old lady.

"Yes," says the other one, "and such small portions!"

So as much as I respect the nuances of fine pizza making, my main memory from my youth in Detroit, as a young college student, who required that every pizza consumed in a group setting be accompanied by numerous pitchers of beer, is that the primary criterion in evaluating pizzas was whether they gave you a lot of cheese.  And after enough beer, even that didn't matter.

Gene


« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 02:16:31 PM by gschwim »


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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1550 on: February 21, 2013, 01:11:54 PM »
I'm partial to this one:

Craig,

New one for me to see.  I do think I am partial to that one now.   ^^^

Norma
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Offline redox

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1551 on: February 21, 2013, 01:37:40 PM »
I'm thinking of trying one of these pizzas tonight, is there any way I can have one ready for dinner, or is it a next day kind of dough? I stopped at a local Italian deli and got all sorts of stuff I'd like to try on it, like Mortadella. They had Margherita Pepperoni for $3.99/lb. I couldn't resist, I got 4 pounds, it's my current favorite. If I can't have one ready for tonight, I'll make one for tomorrow.
I almost forgot, what is Carmelina Sauce?

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1552 on: February 21, 2013, 01:47:20 PM »
There is no reason a same day DS wouldn't be just fine. I don't have a good formula to give you, but I'm pretty sure Norma has done one. If all  else fails, find a NY style dough with a fermentation window that fits your schedule and up the HR to 75%. I'd use at least 3% oil if the formula calls for less. Ball it, let it rest for a couple hours, stretch to fit the pans as best you can, and give it a final few hours rise in the pans.
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline redox

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1553 on: February 21, 2013, 01:56:19 PM »
There is no reason a same day DS wouldn't be just fine. I don't have a good formula to give you, but I'm pretty sure Norma has done one. If all  else fails, find a NY style dough with a fermentation window that fits your schedule and up the HR to 75%. I'd use at least 3% oil if the formula calls for less. Ball it, let it rest for a couple hours, stretch to fit the pans as best you can, and give it a final few hours rise in the pans.
Thanks for the quick reply. I've already made steel_baker's excellent Victory Pig pizza, and it was great!. That one had a 67% hydration. What is the advantage of the higher hydration of 75%? As you can see, I've got a lot to learn. I'll try not to bother you with too many questions. Oh, should I use more yeast for a same day pizza? Crap, right after saying I'd try not to bother you with too many questions, I asked another one. Sorry.

Offline gschwim

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1554 on: February 21, 2013, 02:23:27 PM »
I'm thinking of trying one of these pizzas tonight, is there any way I can have one ready for dinner, or is it a next day kind of dough? I stopped at a local Italian deli and got all sorts of stuff I'd like to try on it, like Mortadella. They had Margherita Pepperoni for $3.99/lb. I couldn't resist, I got 4 pounds, it's my current favorite. If I can't have one ready for tonight, I'll make one for tomorrow.
I almost forgot, what is Carmelina Sauce?

I find that if I make a dough consisting of 500 g of flour, if I use 7 g (1 package) of instant dry yeast and put the dough in a warm place (this being winter, I set it on the floor about a foot from my space heater), the dough will double in about an hour - looks like nothing's happening for the first 45 minutes, then rises quickly.

You can adjust proportionately the amount of IDY to the amount of flour you're using, but the basic principle is, the more yeast, the faster the rise.  But also be aware also that the more yeast, the higher the rise, too, so the dough, after doubling, will continue to expand if you do not use it within a few minutes.  If you wait long enough, it could triple (which may not be a bad thing, if you seek an airier dough) and maybe continue to expand after that.

Or, at least, that's my belief.  Other, more experienced participants on this thread could have a different view.  If they weigh in and disagree with me, you probably would be better off following their advice than mine.

Gene

Offline pete zappie

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1555 on: February 21, 2013, 02:27:20 PM »
that pic i just posted today took about three hours from start plus 15 min to bake. the idy was 1.2 %. that was room temp rise, warm rise as norma does yea about an hour

Offline redox

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1556 on: February 21, 2013, 02:29:29 PM »
I find that if I make a dough consisting of 500 g of flour, if I use 7 g (1 package) of instant dry yeast and put the dough in a warm place (this being winter, I set it on the floor about a foot from my space heater), the dough will double in about an hour - looks like nothing's happening for the first 45 minutes, then rises quickly.

You can adjust proportionately the amount of IDY to the amount of flour you're using, but the basic principle is, the more yeast, the faster the rise.  But also be aware also that the more yeast, the higher the rise, too, so the dough, after doubling, will continue to expand if you do not use it within a few minutes.  If you wait long enough, it could triple (which may not be a bad thing, if you seek an airier dough) and maybe continue to expand after that.

Or, at least, that's my belief.  Other, more experienced participants on this thread could have a different view.  If they weigh in and disagree with me, you probably would be better off following their advice than mine.

Gene

Thanks for the advice, I'd better get cracking soon or it'll be ready too late for dinner. I've never had a Detroit style pizza, just the Victory Pig clone. It does sound really tasty, though. I've got some pulled pork leftovers that I bet would be good on a pizza.

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1557 on: February 21, 2013, 02:34:48 PM »
Thanks for the quick reply. I've already made steel_baker's excellent Victory Pig pizza, and it was great!. That one had a 67% hydration. What is the advantage of the higher hydration of 75%? As you can see, I've got a lot to learn. I'll try not to bother you with too many questions. Oh, should I use more yeast for a same day pizza? Crap, right after saying I'd try not to bother you with too many questions, I asked another one. Sorry.



I like the crumb better with a higher hydration, and I think it will make it a little easier for you to get the dough stretched all the way to the edges of the pan which is pretty important for DS. I'm sure 67% is fine. I looked at SB's VP formula (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13048.msg161538.html#msg161538) and it looks to be a 3ish hour workflow? Am I missing something? He actually uses about 2X as much IDY as I would have expected given his times. I would have thought IDY would be in the 0.8%-1.0% range for a 3 hour rise. Perhaps his room temperature is on the low side? I'd probably up the oil to 2-3%, and I might bring down the yeast a little, but if you have used the formula and it worked for you why change the yeast.
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline redox

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1558 on: February 21, 2013, 02:36:36 PM »
that pic i just posted today took about three hours from start plus 15 min to bake. the idy was 1.2 %. that was room temp rise, warm rise as norma does yea about an hour

I hope you mean the dough formula you posted and not the actual pic!  :P
Thanks for the info, based on what you say, I think I'll give your formula a shot. Thanks for the help.

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1559 on: February 21, 2013, 02:45:53 PM »
Bob,

I wonder if you've heard the old Woody Allen joke about the two old ladies trying a new restaurant.

"This dish tastes terrible," says the first old lady.

"Yes," says the other one, "and such small portions!"

So as much as I respect the nuances of fine pizza making, my main memory from my youth in Detroit, as a young college student, who required that every pizza consumed in a group setting be accompanied by numerous pitchers of beer, is that the primary criterion in evaluating pizzas was whether they gave you a lot of cheese.  And after enough beer, even that didn't matter.

Gene



:-D
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