Author Topic: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 154691 times)

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Offline gschwim

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1780 on: April 07, 2013, 12:36:02 AM »
I  don't know why they wouldn't be safe - particularly if you seasoned it. Bucket Outlet says it has a "heavy, oxide coating." The question is what does that mean. I can't think of what it might be that would be toxic. All I can tell is that it is not dark and apparently not very thick as Gene couldn't discern it.  It might be zinc oxide. If so, the FDR classifies that as safe. If ti was galvanized, Gene would have noticed. My guess is that the coating is hematite - another form of iron oxide that is part of mill scale and can be silvery-grey in color. If someone is really worried about it, they should call and ask what is on the pans.

I don't know why real black steel pans would be a problem either. Hot black steel is simply steel with the surface converted to magnetite (iron oxide) which is non-toxic. Perhaps because fake (cold) black oxide has selenium which can be toxic and comes off easily?

As Bob commented, I think it would be incredibly stupid for Bucket outlet to say the pans are food safe even if they are safe. They said exactly what I would expect them to say when asked.

The pan I got from Bucket Outlet has the Dover label on the bottom, so that's where they come from, but they're not the same.  The old ones were blue steel, the new ones are cold-rolled (gray) steel.  I spoke with people there before ordering, but it also could have been something I read, but I did read/hear somewhere that the new, cold-rolled steel pans are causing a problem because of a tendency to rust.  But the source, of course, was talking about the pans used as intended and not seasoned as we do for baking.  Also, as you can see on the Web site (http://www.bucket-outlet.com/Cold-Rolled-Steel-Utility-Dripping-Pans.htm), they are marketed as "Cold Rolled Steel Utility Dripping Pans," and in the description, it says:  "May rust with exposure to elements."  If the "drips" the pans are trying to catch are water or water-based, I can see how rust could be a problem.

But note also:  The prices are half as much as Shawn's pans.

In any case, I read/heard that because of the rust issue, Bucket Outlet is seeking a source of blue steel pans, or Dover is seeking a source of blue steel.  I didn't ask anyone, but my guess is that when Dover moved away from their old location, they also moved away from their source of blue steel and haven't been able to find a source in Mexico.

I guess I should also mention, for anyone who might not be aware, that the blue steel is the same as the cold-rolled steel; the "blue" part is not the steel itself, but a coating applied to it to prevent or at least retard, rust.


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1781 on: April 07, 2013, 01:30:22 AM »
I guess I should also mention, for anyone who might not be aware, that the blue steel is the same as the cold-rolled steel; the "blue" part is not the steel itself, but a coating applied to it to prevent or at least retard, rust.

That is not exactly correct. True blue steel is actually part of the steel and is not a coating per-se. It starts as cold rolled steel as you note, however the steel is not coated. It is heat and chemically treated such that the exterior layer is converted to magnetite (a black oxide of iron). It isn't a coating. It's a conversion of the surface metal.  There is nothing toxic about true blue steel. That's why I hypothesized in Reply #1771 above that perhaps the reason blue steel pans might be banned for food is because there is the possibility of getting an inferior blue steel where the blue is actually a blue colored coating of copper and selenium compounds that can be toxic and tends to fall off easily.
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1782 on: April 07, 2013, 09:37:34 AM »
Actually, now that I think of it, and after so many years, I could be wrong, but I do suddenly remember, at Buddy's, having to wait at least 20-25 minutes for a pizza.  On the other hand, that could have been because of orders taken ahead of mine.

But actually, it does make sense.  You don't need 500 degrees to fry something and the lower temperature would reduce the chances of burning the cheese.  Maybe it would even reduce the cheese's tendency to stick to the sides.

Think I'll try it.

Gene

Gene,

It would be interesting if you tried a lower bake temperature.

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1783 on: April 07, 2013, 09:40:00 AM »
This is Tom Lehmannís said on seasoning steel pans. 

http://www.pmq.com/January-2013/A-Pan-for-All-Seasonings/

Tom says the dark color from seasoning is nothing more than carbonized oil, and carbon has been said to be a potential carcinogen.  Tom also says that is any seasoning goes missing from a pan, a health inspector may assume that a customer has consumed it as a part of the pizza.  The inspector may order you to remove all of the seasoning form all of your pans before than can be reused.  Worse, the seasoning on these pans, if not regularly used, can turn rancid, affecting a pieís flavor 

More can be read in the article.

Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1784 on: April 07, 2013, 09:54:19 AM »
Here is a link to Cloverleaf's menu:
http://www.cloverleafrestaurant.com/menu.htm

This is identical to the menu in the restaurant. You will see that they specify a 25 minute bake time.  It shows in their finished product, it is much more evenly browned and crisp with very little if any gum line.  It is something I certainly plan to emulate when I start trying to make my idea of the perfect Detroit style pizza very shortly.
Since Shawn was once affiliated with Cloverleaf, as I understand it, I can see how he came up with the thirty minute bake time. However, if that time, or even 25 minutes, is a prerequisite to certification, then Buddy's could not be certified. I can recall three different bake times attributed to Buddy's: 12 minutes when they had their original infrared conveyor ovens (Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg62915.html#msg62915); 13 minutes (at 375 degrees F) with one of their impingement conveyor ovens (Reply 98 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73872.html#msg73872); and 11-12 minutes or for a few minutes longer for a more well done pizza (at 495 degrees F), also with their impingement conveyor ovens (Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795). I am sure that this is all moot since I cannot imagine Buddy's, as the ones who started the whole Detroit style pizza, however named, would ever seek certification from Shawn.

Peter

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1785 on: April 07, 2013, 10:38:10 AM »
Tom says the dark color from seasoning is nothing more than carbonized oil, and carbon has been said to be a potential carcinogen.

So seasoned pans are dangerous and/or are going to get you in hot water with the health department.  Right  ;D And I'm sure that Tom's affiliation with a specialty coating baking pan manufacturer has absolutely nothing to do with that opinion.  Not a darn thing  >:D

Offline gschwim

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1786 on: April 07, 2013, 10:45:51 AM »
That is not exactly correct. True blue steel is actually part of the steel and is not a coating per-se. It starts as cold rolled steel as you note, however the steel is not coated. It is heat and chemically treated such that the exterior layer is converted to magnetite (a black oxide of iron). It isn't a coating. It's a conversion of the surface metal.  There is nothing toxic about true blue steel. That's why I hypothesized in Reply #1771 above that perhaps the reason blue steel pans might be banned for food is because there is the possibility of getting an inferior blue steel where the blue is actually a blue colored coating of copper and selenium compounds that can be toxic and tends to fall off easily.

It's interesting - or maybe not - that one of my hobbies is shooting replica antique firearms, but I didn't associate the blue steel pans with the bluing process that has been used on gun barrels for centuries.  My flintlock Kentucky rifle, for example, has a blued barrel, which does offer some, though not total protection from rust; one must coat the barrel with oil, too:  "All blued parts still need to be properly oiled to prevent rust."

You can read a pretty comprehensive description of bluing here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluing_%28steel%29.  Apparently, there are multiple bluing methods; I have no idea which one the steelmakers who made the steel for the old steel pans used.

I also wonder, after reading this article, whether it would be worthwhile to investigate gunsmiths' and gun hobbyists' bluing techniques to see if, though the pans as ordered are not blued steel, one might blue the steel after the fact.

Or maybe it's possible to take a pan to a gunsmith and have him blue it?  Or maybe the cost of the process makes it not worth the trouble.

Offline gschwim

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1787 on: April 07, 2013, 10:50:46 AM »
Gene,

It would be interesting if you tried a lower bake temperature.

Norma

I'm thinking of trying it tonight.  The "limiting factor" is that I'm trying to control my weight by eating less bread, usually waiting till the weekend and I ate some sandwiches last night.  On the other hand, the lure of DS pizza is pretty strong and it still is the weekend, right?  But if not this weekend, then next and I'll let everyone know the results.

So the question now is, what baking time and what temperature?  I'm thinking of 25 minutes at 400 degrees.  Any suggestions?  I'm also wondering whether anyone here knows the temperature and baking times the Chicago deep dish folks use; maybe that would be a good starting point.

Gene

Offline gschwim

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1788 on: April 07, 2013, 10:53:27 AM »
I had forgotten that I had called Bucket Outlet on their blue steel pans, but as noted at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13687.msg137295/topicseen.html#msg137295, I was told at the time (April, 2011) that the pans were indeed from Dover. That post also confirmed that Dover was selling the pans to just about everyone in the Detroit deep dish business.

Peter

For anyone who may be interested, here are a couple of photos of the interior and bottom of my Bucket Outlet steel pan, with the Dover label and "MADE IN MEXICO" on the bottom.  Note also the warning re rust.

Gene

Offline gschwim

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1789 on: April 07, 2013, 11:06:05 AM »
This is Tom Lehmannís said on seasoning steel pans. 

http://www.pmq.com/January-2013/A-Pan-for-All-Seasonings/

Tom says the dark color from seasoning is nothing more than carbonized oil, and carbon has been said to be a potential carcinogen.  Tom also says that is any seasoning goes missing from a pan, a health inspector may assume that a customer has consumed it as a part of the pizza.  The inspector may order you to remove all of the seasoning form all of your pans before than can be reused.  Worse, the seasoning on these pans, if not regularly used, can turn rancid, affecting a pieís flavor 

More can be read in the article.

Norma

Norma,

I read the article and I think Tom is saying something a bit different - that there are steel pans that are available with "a dark finish" and describes the finish, but I don't think this is the same as blue steel.  In another post on this thread, I included a link to a Wikipedia entry about blue, or "blued" steel:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluing_%28steel%29

Of course, I could be wrong about whether this is the same "blue steel" as the pans, but if it is, then TX Craig's description of an actual change in the surface of the steel - to magnetite, according to the Wikipedia entry - would seem to be closer to the mark.  It's the difference between a coating applied atop the steel, and a chemical process done to the steel itself, whereby a chemical is applied to the metal, but then washed away.  If so, then the food-safety question would seem to hinge on whether magnetite is food safe.  Though I have no knowledge of the Detroit Health Department, I suspect that Buddy's and others would not have gotten away with using these pans for over half a century if they were not food safe.

Gene


Gene


Offline gschwim

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1790 on: April 07, 2013, 11:07:38 AM »
I am sure that this is all moot since I cannot imagine Buddy's, as the ones who started the whole Detroit style pizza, however named, would ever seek certification from Shawn.

Peter

Indeed.  Seems to me, if anything, it should be the other way around.

Gene

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1791 on: April 07, 2013, 11:22:36 AM »
A few comments:

They made blue steel pans in Mexico, I have one sitting in my kitchen that is blue steel and had the made in Mexico tag, so it was not a Mexican supply chain issue.

The bluing doesn't seem to matter.  I'm seasoning 3 pans right now, two cold rolled and one blue.  After one coat of seasoning you can barely tell the difference between the two.

For anyone concerned about seasoning going rancid or peeling off, read about seasoning with flax oil.  I cannot fathom either being an issue with my pans which are now three coats deep.

Buddy's did not invent Detroit style, Gus did.  In 1953 Gus sold Buddy's and opened Cloverleaf.  In my opinion since then Cloverleaf has carried the torch of authenticity then it comes to Detroit style pizza.  Through Shawn's association with Cloverleaf and the fact that he is currently the only artisan type pizza maker working with Detroit style in Detroit I feel he has a honest claim to that "torch".  I'm hoping to try Shawn's pizza soon and maybe get a chance to chat with him a bit, I'll update you guys if I can make that happen.
-Jeff

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1792 on: April 07, 2013, 11:28:24 AM »
Gene,

My late husband and my father also had gun barrels that were made of blue steel.  I sure donít know a lot about them, or what the bluing process was, but do recall that my late husband did have to have his one pistol blued again.  I really am not understanding this whole bluing process. 

I really donít know either if my steel pans from NorthernPizzaEquipment are like the steel pan you purchased from the Bucket Outlet. 

I also noticed that when I wipe off the top of my deck oven each week (where my steel pans are stored) there is a slight rust spot there each week I guess from not drying the top of the oven before I place the pans there again. I am also not sure if that pans that does that rusting is from NorthernPizzaEquipment or from the Detroit Style Pizza Co., but probably both pans will rust if exposed to water.

For now, until I get this whole thing figured out with the steel pans I am going to keep doing what I have been doing.

Norma 
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1793 on: April 07, 2013, 11:35:06 AM »
A few comments:

They made blue steel pans in Mexico, I have one sitting in my kitchen that is blue steel and had the made in Mexico tag, so it was not a Mexican supply chain issue.

The bluing doesn't seem to matter.  I'm seasoning 3 pans right now, two cold rolled and one blue.  After one coat of seasoning you can barely tell the difference between the two.

For anyone concerned about seasoning going rancid or peeling off, read about seasoning with flax oil.  I cannot fathom either being an issue with my pans which are now three coats deep.

Buddy's did not invent Detroit style, Gus did.  In 1953 Gus sold Buddy's and opened Cloverleaf.  In my opinion since then Cloverleaf has carried the torch of authenticity then it comes to Detroit style pizza.  Through Shawn's association with Cloverleaf and the fact that he is currently the only artisan type pizza maker working with Detroit style in Detroit I feel he has a honest claim to that "torch".  I'm hoping to try Shawn's pizza soon and maybe get a chance to chat with him a bit, I'll update you guys if I can make that happen.

Jeff,

Thanks for saying the bluing doesnít seem to matter.  I have those old bread baking pans and think they are made of steel too and they seemed to work okay in one attempt when I used one and I donĎt think they were ever blued. 

It will be interesting to hear if you get to try Shawnís pizza soon and also if you get to chat with him. 

Norma
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Offline gschwim

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1794 on: April 07, 2013, 12:01:52 PM »
A few comments:

They made blue steel pans in Mexico, I have one sitting in my kitchen that is blue steel and had the made in Mexico tag, so it was not a Mexican supply chain issue.

The bluing doesn't seem to matter.  I'm seasoning 3 pans right now, two cold rolled and one blue.  After one coat of seasoning you can barely tell the difference between the two.

For anyone concerned about seasoning going rancid or peeling off, read about seasoning with flax oil.  I cannot fathom either being an issue with my pans which are now three coats deep.

Buddy's did not invent Detroit style, Gus did.  In 1953 Gus sold Buddy's and opened Cloverleaf.  In my opinion since then Cloverleaf has carried the torch of authenticity then it comes to Detroit style pizza.  Through Shawn's association with Cloverleaf and the fact that he is currently the only artisan type pizza maker working with Detroit style in Detroit I feel he has a honest claim to that "torch".  I'm hoping to try Shawn's pizza soon and maybe get a chance to chat with him a bit, I'll update you guys if I can make that happen.

I still have one pan left to season.  If you wouldn't mind sharing your precise process - type of oil used, how many coats, their thickness, baking time and temperature - I would love to try it.

Thanks in advance.

Gene

Offline redox

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1795 on: April 07, 2013, 12:21:53 PM »
I believe I posted this somewhere else, probably another thread that doesn't get read often so some may find this helpful. I contacted Shawn Randazzo about the poor seasoning on a pan I bought from his site.

He replied in part, "Thank you for contacting me with your feedback. We do 3-4 thin coats and bake around an hour each time. I did notice a handful of pans several batches ago where looking like the third coat was spotty and I have seemed to pinpoint them as the ones doing this excessive flaking. When they were being made with the blue steel pans we never encountered the problem, but since they are now made with cold rolled steel we noticed even if cold air slightly catches pan right after coming out of the oven during the seasoning process it instantly just releases from the pans, so now we make sure the pans are put into a designated area we have built for them to stay warm to cool down and now they don't do that."

This might help as you season cold rolled steel pans.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1796 on: April 07, 2013, 12:28:43 PM »
It's interesting - or maybe not - that one of my hobbies is shooting replica antique firearms, but I didn't associate the blue steel pans with the bluing process that has been used on gun barrels for centuries.  My flintlock Kentucky rifle, for example, has a blued barrel, which does offer some, though not total protection from rust; one must coat the barrel with oil, too:  "All blued parts still need to be properly oiled to prevent rust."

You can read a pretty comprehensive description of bluing here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluing_%28steel%29.  Apparently, there are multiple bluing methods; I have no idea which one the steelmakers who made the steel for the old steel pans used.

I also wonder, after reading this article, whether it would be worthwhile to investigate gunsmiths' and gun hobbyists' bluing techniques to see if, though the pans as ordered are not blued steel, one might blue the steel after the fact.

Or maybe it's possible to take a pan to a gunsmith and have him blue it?  Or maybe the cost of the process makes it not worth the trouble.

I have an item or two that is blued as well. I doubt many gunsmiths could blue the pans. The bluing tanks gunsmiths typically have are long and thin - like a rifle barrel - and probably wouldn't fit a pan.

I think the hot bluing process is almost always the method of choice unless the temperature employed is problematic for the item being blued.
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Offline shuboyje

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1797 on: April 07, 2013, 02:49:28 PM »
I still have one pan left to season.  If you wouldn't mind sharing your precise process - type of oil used, how many coats, their thickness, baking time and temperature - I would love to try it.

Thanks in advance.

Gene

I'm seasoning using this guide and love the results.  I'm 3 coats in and gonna try a test bake in a little bit, I don't think steel will need the full 6 coats Cast Iron does.
 
http://sherylcanter.com/wordpress/2010/01/a-science-based-technique-for-seasoning-cast-iron/
-Jeff

Offline gschwim

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1798 on: April 07, 2013, 05:47:00 PM »
I'm seasoning using this guide and love the results.  I'm 3 coats in and gonna try a test bake in a little bit, I don't think steel will need the full 6 coats Cast Iron does.
 
http://sherylcanter.com/wordpress/2010/01/a-science-based-technique-for-seasoning-cast-iron/

I tried that method.  Might work well for cast iron, but I wasn't entirely happy with it on steel.  The coating looked fine, but when I baked a DS pizza in it, I still had the cheese-sticking-to-sides problem - so much so, that I had to use a (plastic) scrubber and plain water to get it off, and when I did, some of the coating came off and exposed the bare metal.  But let me know your results and if it works for you, I'll try again.

I also ordered one of Shawn's pans and what I noticed is that the coating is visible, about like some of my attempts, but his coating is smooth to the touch, while mine is sticky.  Does anyone know what oil he uses?  Or maybe it's the baking temperature.  Or both.


Offline gschwim

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1799 on: April 07, 2013, 05:49:33 PM »
I believe I posted this somewhere else, probably another thread that doesn't get read often so some may find this helpful. I contacted Shawn Randazzo about the poor seasoning on a pan I bought from his site.

He replied in part, "Thank you for contacting me with your feedback. We do 3-4 thin coats and bake around an hour each time. I did notice a handful of pans several batches ago where looking like the third coat was spotty and I have seemed to pinpoint them as the ones doing this excessive flaking. When they were being made with the blue steel pans we never encountered the problem, but since they are now made with cold rolled steel we noticed even if cold air slightly catches pan right after coming out of the oven during the seasoning process it instantly just releases from the pans, so now we make sure the pans are put into a designated area we have built for them to stay warm to cool down and now they don't do that."

This might help as you season cold rolled steel pans.

I'm gonna try it.  Did Shawn say, or do you know, what kind of oil he uses?  As for the spotting problem, I'm guessing that letting the pans stay in the oven till they cool would solve the problem.

Gene


 

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