Author Topic: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 147538 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2000 on: July 03, 2013, 01:55:06 PM »

Here's a pic of last night's gluten-free DS which was the best yet with a properly crisp crust that was similar to kolache in texture (note the air bubbles).


Britt,

Your photo of last night's gluten-free Detroit style looks very good!

Norma
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Offline Skee

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2001 on: July 03, 2013, 02:15:22 PM »
This probably sounds stupid but I'm curious how you guys make gluten-free pizzas. Thanks.  :chef:
Yours looks really natural and tasty Skee...awesome caramelizing too!
Thanks Bob (and Norma too)!  The search for a good gluten-free crust started in earnest for me when my wife finally agreed to do an elimination diet to determine the source of her almost nightly bloating and sometimes painful tummy area - turned out to be gluten, which is what I expected but was hoping that it would be something easier like corn or soy.  With DS pies on the menu three weeks out of every four, I needed something right away and I tried a recipe in the gluten-free section of this forum (and included some pics if you want to go there and compare to the one from yesterday and marvel at the difference - http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10105.msg243830.html#msg243830).

Basically, I ended up taking a regular "emergency" pizza dough and replaced the wheat flour with a mix of brown rice flour and potato and tapioca starches, added a little xanthum gum (this acts like gluten) and baking powder (for some more oomph in the rise, might not be necessary and I intend to experiment with removing it), and used coconut milk instead of water to add a little more body without adding dairy.  With the yeast and the xanthum gum, the dough rises pretty normally and easily presses into the DS pan, then I let it sit a while to form a skin on top and rise again, then dress and cook just like usual.  I also made a normal DS at the same time and the gluten-free took a couple minutes longer (related to dough weight only, I think).

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2002 on: July 03, 2013, 02:19:21 PM »
Thank you Skee; how does the crust flavor compare when making a DS gluten free?
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Offline Skee

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2003 on: July 03, 2013, 04:12:49 PM »
Thank you Skee; how does the crust flavor compare when making a DS gluten free?
Since it's not aged and the GF flour mix tastes like rice noodles smell, it definitely doesn't taste as good as a wheat crust.   If you didn't have a wheat crust for direct comparison, I don't think many people would complain, though.  It is MUCH better than the crusts that I made from GF biscuit recipes, though (those usually ended up like bricks after about five minutes out of the oven). 

I suggested to my wife that I could cut down the crust weight by maybe 25% to see if moving the balance more towards the toppings made it taste better and she said she's happy with it now, likes the balance as-is and the rice-noodle flavor doesn't bother her.  So I'm thinking about trying a cold-ferment with a poolish made with 1/4 the GF flour mix for the next one to see if I can boost the yeast-derived flavors a bit.

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2004 on: July 08, 2013, 06:25:37 PM »
A member had sent me a PM asking me how I made this dough less sticky.  I said I would post photos on how the dough looks coming out of the mixer and how I ball the cut and scaled dough.  I did take those photos today and will post about them at another time, but I had problems at market today with my deli case nearing the time I had to leave market.  I saw when I went to put the steel pans and the dough balls that are kept in plastic balls into the deli case the top of my deli case was dripping water.  I knew that couldn't be a good thing.  I have been checking by feeling up above the metal plates the last few weeks since the weather is really hot to see if the top refrigerated coils are frozen, or starting to freeze.  The bottom coils never freeze.  When I checked today the top coils were frozen almost up to the top of my deli case.  I knew if I didn't do something about that my deli case wouldn't keep the right temperature tomorrow.  I put two fans into the deli case and luckily they defrosted until I finished grating the cheese and washed dishes. I was about 10 minutes late leaving market though. That is one problem with deli cases that are kept in such hot conditions where it is also so humid.  I had to try and cram the Detroit style doughs into my pizza prep fridge until I could get the coils defrosted.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2005 on: July 10, 2013, 08:58:23 AM »
These are the photos of what one batch of Detroit style dough, scaled dough, balled dough balls and dough ball in a steel pan looks like.  To explain a little more the dough for the Detroit style pizzas is 75% hydration and is mixed for 2 times with a rest period in between of about 15 minutes.  The whole mix is done with the flat beater attachment for my Hobart mixer.  That is the same mixing method I used at home for my Kitchen Aid mixer at home. 

It can be seen how sticky the dough is after using the mixing methods I posted above.  The dough is strong though.  The batch of dough is then put on the floured marble slab.  A little more flour is placed where the batch of dough will be placed.  When the sticky dough is placed on the marble slab it is then folded over a few times.  It can be seen then it looks like it isn't sticky, but it still is somewhat sticky as can be seen on my fingers when I was stretching the dough again to show what it looks like and how strong it still is.  It then can be seen what some balled dough balls look like.  Note the little mound of flour on the marble slab between the balled dough balls and the scaled dough balls.  That mound of flour and the other flour on the bench is how I ball the dough balls so they aren't sticky, but I have to work quickly.  If the dough when balling feels too sticky, I just dip the dough ball in that little mound of flour and ball more.  Sometimes the balling process can take 10 tucks under, or more to ball to make them feel normal, but they are still very soft.  The top and bottom of a dough ball can also be seen in two of photos.   The last photo is of a dough ball in a greased steel pan.  As can be seen the dough ball is already starting to spread in that short amount of time it takes to ball and place all the dough balls in steel pans or in plastic bags.

Norma
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 09:00:02 AM by norma427 »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2006 on: July 10, 2013, 09:04:14 AM »
This post is to show what a pressed out dough ball looks like the next day before it is tempered.  The dough balls are very easy to press out when they are cold.  Two photos of how the steel pans are stacked in the deli case and how some of the dough balls are in plastic bags.  There were already steel pans taken out of the deli case when that photo was taken for tempering.  It can be see how the dough balls spread out in the steel pan until the next day.  One photo of how my small pizza stand looks like in the morning at market if anyone is interested, and the last photo is how a tempered dough ball looks like in the steel pan before adding the dressings.  The first boardwalk style of pizza was soon finished baking when the photo was taken of my pizza stand.  The tempered dough in the steel pan is very sticky again after tempering.

If there are any questions about mixing, or other methods and I will try to answer them.

Norma
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2007 on: July 10, 2013, 09:36:33 AM »
Boy Norma, you sure have done a great job in utilizing every square inch of space you have available their at your stand. It looks really nice and thanks for the pic of you at Market.
Those elastic band plastic covers on your DS dough pans sure do look familiar!  :-D
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2008 on: July 10, 2013, 10:13:41 AM »
Boy Norma, you sure have done a great job in utilizing every square inch of space you have available their at your stand. It looks really nice and thanks for the pic of you at Market.
Those elastic band plastic covers on your DS dough pans sure do look familiar!  :-D

Bob,

Thanks for posting that it was a good job of utilizing the small space I have at market.  My mother and I built almost that whole stand.  Just ask Steve though how hard it is to get past one another behind the oven to the pizza prep fridge to the cash register.  We can't get by each other without brushing against each other.  Many times our faces are almost right against that oven.  Luckily we haven't been burnt in our faces.  The heat out of the oven isn't fun either on hot days.

Yep Bob, you helped me with those processing hats for my steel pans.  ;D They work great for me.  Thanks!

Norma
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Offline Skee

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2009 on: July 10, 2013, 12:07:04 PM »
Norma,

Thanks for the fresh pics!  I can certainly appreciate having to work in a small space with a hot oven behind you but usually did it without another person getting in the way...

Are you balling the dough, fermenting each ball in a bag, then stretching the cold dough in the pan right out of the bag or are you proofing a while before stretching?  And are you re-balling between the bag and the pan?

Cheers,
Britt


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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2010 on: July 10, 2013, 02:11:16 PM »
Norma,

Thanks for the fresh pics!  I can certainly appreciate having to work in a small space with a hot oven behind you but usually did it without another person getting in the way...

Are you balling the dough, fermenting each ball in a bag, then stretching the cold dough in the pan right out of the bag or are you proofing a while before stretching?  And are you re-balling between the bag and the pan?

Cheers,
Britt

Britt,

What kind of job did you have that you worked in a small place in the heat?  I like having Steve to talk to and also he is a great pizza maker, so I don't really mind if we get in each others way.  I am always interested in talking to people that have to work in the heat.  At least I don't have to work in the direct sun like some people do and do also have fans to help with the heat.  I can count 5 things at market that contribute to heat though.

To answer your questions, I do oil my dough balls before they are either placed in the steel pans, or they are put into the plastic bags.  That part I didn't show in the photos.  I only have 8 small steel pans, so that is why I also put some dough balls in the plastic bags.  Eight oiled dough balls go right into the steel pans.  The ones in the steel pans and the ones in the plastic bags are cold fermented until the next day.  I never reball any of the dough balls in the plastic bags.  Some of the dough balls in the plastic bags get pretty misshaped, but I find they work well when just dumped into the steel pans when I need them to be pressed out and tempered.  They are all pressed out cold and they are all tempered until they look like what I showed in the last photo I posted.  I found a couple things interesting that happened yesterday.  We were busy and somehow Steve put some steel pans with dough balls in them right in the tempering unit and they weren't stretched out.  When we needed those to make pizzas Steve said he didn't know what happened that he forgot to stretch them when they were cold.  Steve could stretch them out with a little difficulty because they were really sticky, but they made fine Detroit style pizzas.  There was also another pressed out dough ball with cheese already applied that was already tempered and put on top of my one rack.  That pressed out dough ball that had the cheese applied also still had a plastic cap on.  Somehow that pan was forgotten about for a few hours too.  I should have taken a photo of how high that pressed out dough ball rose, but didn't.  That tempered dough also supported the toppings when baking. 

In no way am I saying that my way of doing everything is right for a Detroit style dough and pizza.  It is only this way of mixing and what other methods I use that work for me at market.  Peter helped me a lot to decide how I could do all of this at market.

Norma
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Offline Markus M.

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2011 on: July 11, 2013, 12:00:41 PM »
The amount of multi tasking and organization that must happen in that space to come out with product, that is as amazing looking as yours.... :o WHEW!!. You must be one hard working woman! Good Job would be an understatement.

Offline Skee

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2012 on: July 11, 2013, 02:14:31 PM »
Norma,

Thanks for the workflow info! I decided to skip balling the dough for my DS and just put it directly in the pan after bulk fermenting and haven't noticed any negatives, which is probably about the same as you going from a sticky bag to the pan.

I worked as a chef and pastry chef for 15 years and many of those jobs involved working in tiny, cramped spaces, often in front of deck ovens (when I was making pizza and bread for instance).  Having someone to talk to is nice, though, and my wife and kids are usually good about keeping out of my way at home - last Tuesday I was making three different pizzas and a pasta dish for dinner and I finally had to lock the dog in the study and yell at everyone to keep out for the final 10 minutes or someone's dinner was going to be served cold!

Britt

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2013 on: July 11, 2013, 03:14:59 PM »
The amount of multi tasking and organization that must happen in that space to come out with product, that is as amazing looking as yours.... :o WHEW!!. You must be one hard working woman! Good Job would be an understatement.

Markus,

Yes, there is a good amount of multi tasking and some organization to be able to make different pizzas in a small space.  Sometimes it does get a bit chaotic.  :-D  Thanks for your kind comment!

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2014 on: July 11, 2013, 03:28:22 PM »
Norma,

Thanks for the workflow info! I decided to skip balling the dough for my DS and just put it directly in the pan after bulk fermenting and haven't noticed any negatives, which is probably about the same as you going from a sticky bag to the pan.

I worked as a chef and pastry chef for 15 years and many of those jobs involved working in tiny, cramped spaces, often in front of deck ovens (when I was making pizza and bread for instance).  Having someone to talk to is nice, though, and my wife and kids are usually good about keeping out of my way at home - last Tuesday I was making three different pizzas and a pasta dish for dinner and I finally had to lock the dog in the study and yell at everyone to keep out for the final 10 minutes or someone's dinner was going to be served cold!

Britt

Britt,

I am not sure, but think my balling adds more structure to the dough.  I think Buddy's might just stick the scaled doughs in the pan, but am not sure.  Come to think of it the plastic bag dough balls does ferment, but seems to slump more than the dough balls that are directly placed in the steel pans.  I am not really sure is the number of times I spent balling the dough balls really helps at all.  The plastic bag really isn't sticky and the oiled dough balls usually just fall out, unless the dough would become warm and then it is highly sticky. 

Thanks for telling me more about your work in the heat.  I didn't know you were a chef and pastry chef for 15 years. :chef:  I had to chuckle about your comments about your wife, kids and dog and keeping everyone out of the way in the last minutes or you would serve them cold dinner.   :-D

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2015 on: July 11, 2013, 03:34:16 PM »
I saw in another thread Peter mentioned in an email he received from Buddy's pizza that their pizza really isn't a Detroit style pizza, but a Sicilian style pizza.

Buddy's says in this fairly recent article that Buddy's pizza is a Sicilian-square pizza and does not mention a Detroit style pizza at all.
http://royaloak.patch.com/groups/announcements/p/buddys-pizza-debuts-4-new-thin-crust-options-today 

I guess I am calling my Detroit style pizza at market the wrong thing.  :-D

Norma
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Offline Skee

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2016 on: July 11, 2013, 04:23:14 PM »
I saw in another thread Peter mentioned in an email he received from Buddy's pizza that their pizza really isn't a Detroit style pizza, but a Sicilian style pizza.
Well, since Shawn declared that DS requires a deck oven, I guess Buddy's can't use the term, right?  ;)

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2017 on: July 11, 2013, 04:58:46 PM »
Well, since Shawn declared that DS requires a deck oven, I guess Buddy's can't use the term, right?  ;)

Britt,

I sure don't know if Shawn is right or wrong that you need to have a deck oven to make a DS style pizza.  Buddy's did bake in deck ovens at one time, so who is to say what really makes a DS style pizza.   I guess Shawn might have made his own rules.   :-D

Norma 
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2018 on: July 16, 2013, 09:48:07 PM »
I don't know how this insect got in my steel pan I had used to make a Detroit style pizza today, but when I went to wipe out the pan it was there.  I thought it was dead, but when my friend Addison picked it up and it was still alive.  I sure didn't want to touch it.  :-D  I found out it was a June bug and never had seen one before.  My one farmer friend that has peach trees told me that June bugs can eat peaches very fast when they are on peach trees.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2019 on: July 18, 2013, 07:09:35 AM »
I decided to try saucing the Detroit style pizzas after the bake on Tuesday.  I guess I was trying to be true to the way Buddy's puts their sauce on their pizzas before.  I think I like the looks of the Detroit style pizzas better if the sauce is applied after the bake.  I asked Steve if he thought I was bullheaded that I didn't try that before and he said yes I am bullheaded  :-D  because he does usually sauces his Detroit style pizzas after the bake.  I know other members also sauce their Detroit style pizzas after the bake.

Norma
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