Author Topic: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 244499 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2050 on: September 28, 2013, 10:56:25 AM »
Norma, here's another sinkhole, they must be getting around! I think you were the lucky one!!! :-D

jon

http://slice.seriouseats.com/images/20100906-epic-pizza-fail.jpg

Lol Jon, that sure is a big "sinkhole".  :-D  I am glad I didn't have that mess to clean up.   >:D 

Norma


Offline Skee

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2051 on: September 30, 2013, 09:17:28 PM »
Norma,

I've also noticed a slightly less dark crust over time but have compensated by cooking at 500F instead of 475F - it shaves a few minutes off the cooking time, too.  I think the pans get less conductive as they carbonize.

Cheers,
Britt

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2052 on: September 30, 2013, 10:06:45 PM »
Norma,

I've also noticed a slightly less dark crust over time but have compensated by cooking at 500F instead of 475F - it shaves a few minutes off the cooking time, too.  I think the pans get less conductive as they carbonize.

Cheers,
Britt

Britt,

Thanks for telling me you also notice a slightly less dark side crust over time, but you have compensated by cooking at 500 degrees F instead of 475 degrees F.  You might be right that the steel pans get less conductive as they carbonize.  While I was at market last Monday making my doughs I turned my oven up the whole way to try and get rid of the junk on my bottom deck.  I kept working on that the whole time I was at market.  Maybe my oven is not turned back to where it was before in temperature although I did mark where the temperature dial should be.  I took my IR gun over to market today so tomorrow I will take some temperature readings.

Norma

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2053 on: October 05, 2013, 06:46:02 PM »
Norma, how much dough are you using for an 8x10 pie nowadays?
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2054 on: October 05, 2013, 10:47:29 PM »
Norma, how much dough are you using for an 8x10 pie nowadays?

Craig,

I am using 9.5 ounces of dough for a 8"x10" pan.

Norma

Offline FabioFognini

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2055 on: October 24, 2013, 05:31:25 PM »
As a rookie here, I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who's taken the time to contribute to this thread (as well as the Buddy's/Shields). Particularly to Norma and Peter who have been more than generous with their thoughts and experiments.

I run a non-food technology business at the moment, and if my customers had any idea of the ratio of time I've spend reading this thread wall-to-wall vs. thinking about their issues (This thread = hydration %, work = IDY%), they'd probably suggest I'd have more fun doing pizza for a living. I wouldn't disagree.

Just wanted you to know how appreciated all the good work is. I'll be doing some Detroit Style experiments of my own this weekend, and looking forward to having my friends and family eat it up with they faces!

Best,
Fabio

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2056 on: October 24, 2013, 06:00:36 PM »


I run a non-food technology business at the moment, and if my customers had any idea of the ratio of time I've spend reading this thread wall-to-wall vs. thinking about their issues (This thread = hydration %, work = IDY%), they'd probably suggest I'd have more fun doing pizza for a living. I wouldn't disagree.
...

LOL. Glad you've got your priorities straight ! 

Offline Serpentelli

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2057 on: October 24, 2013, 06:12:53 PM »

I run a non-food technology business at the moment, and if my customers had any idea of the ratio of time I've spend reading this thread wall-to-wall vs. thinking about their issues (This thread = hydration %, work = IDY%), they'd probably suggest I'd have more fun doing pizza for a living. I wouldn't disagree.

Just wanted you to know how appreciated all the good work is. I'll be doing some Detroit Style experiments of my own this weekend, and looking forward to having my friends and family eat it up with they faces!

Best,
Fabio

Fabio,

Well-said and I agree 1000%. There are many days while at work when my employees drop something off on my desk and see a picture of one of Norma's beautiful pies, or one of Craig's brilliant spreadsheets, or one of countless others' posts or pictures on my computer.

There was a time not too long ago where I was spending way too much time on discussion groups within my own non-pizza industry. Those groups were often filled with unhelpful and often times plain mean-spirited posts. For the most part, this site has been devoid of such nonsense. This is a great community. Thanks in great part to people like Norma!

Norma for Queen!

John K
I'm not wearing hockey pads!

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2058 on: October 24, 2013, 08:07:24 PM »
As a rookie here, I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who's taken the time to contribute to this thread (as well as the Buddy's/Shields). Particularly to Norma and Peter who have been more than generous with their thoughts and experiments.

I run a non-food technology business at the moment, and if my customers had any idea of the ratio of time I've spend reading this thread wall-to-wall vs. thinking about their issues (This thread = hydration %, work = IDY%), they'd probably suggest I'd have more fun doing pizza for a living. I wouldn't disagree.

Just wanted you to know how appreciated all the good work is. I'll be doing some Detroit Style experiments of my own this weekend, and looking forward to having my friends and family eat it up with they faces!

Best,
Fabio

Fabio,

Glad you learned something about making a Detroit style pizza from this thread and the Buddy's/Shields thread. 

Pizza making is a lot of fun even if everything doesn't turn out right some of time.  At least something is learned from those mistakes. 

Peter and other members have always been my guiding light in my adventures here on the forum. 

Let us know how you make out in your adventures in making a Detroit style pizza and what your friends and family think of your Detroit style pizzas. 

To put a little tang into this thread I have upped the hydration on my Detroit style pizzas for market.  Although my steel pans were seasoned well and not giving me any problems this week one of them just had a large peel off of the seasoned bottom.  I sure don't know what that happened.  :-D

Norma


Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2059 on: October 24, 2013, 08:08:47 PM »
Fabio,

Well-said and I agree 1000%. There are many days while at work when my employees drop something off on my desk and see a picture of one of Norma's beautiful pies, or one of Craig's brilliant spreadsheets, or one of countless others' posts or pictures on my computer.

There was a time not too long ago where I was spending way too much time on discussion groups within my own non-pizza industry. Those groups were often filled with unhelpful and often times plain mean-spirited posts. For the most part, this site has been devoid of such nonsense. This is a great community. Thanks in great part to people like Norma!

Norma for Queen!

John K

Thanks John!

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2060 on: November 02, 2013, 09:18:46 AM »
Radio interview with Shawn Randazzo about Detroit Style Pizza.  http://www.cbc.ca/windsormorning/food-with-jonathan-pinto/2013/09/26/food-with-jonathan-pinto---detroit-style-pizza/ 

Shawn says in the interview that he is on a eight to ten year mission to promote Detroit Style Pizzas.

USA TODAY about Detroit Style Pizza Makers at Brown Dog Pizza in Telluride, Colorado. 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/columnist/greatamericanbites/2013/09/26/detroit-style-pizza-brown-dog-telluride/2874395/ 

Forbes article about Tony Gemignani serving Authentic Detroit Style Pizza.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larryolmsted/2013/10/15/americas-best-pizzeria-comes-to-las-vegas/ 

VIA 313 featured in Culturemap.  http://austin.culturemap.com/news/food_drink/10-07-13-where-to-eat-in-october-rainey-street/

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2061 on: November 06, 2013, 07:32:21 PM »
I had a leftover Detroit style dough ball in a pan yesterday so it was brought home and baked tonight.  I tried the Sclafani crushed tomatoes that I purchased when I was in Trenton, NJ.  I thought the taste of the Sclafani crushed tomatoes tasted great on a Detroit style pizza.  I did add a tiny amount of sugar and a little Greek oregano to the tomato sauce.

Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2062 on: November 06, 2013, 07:33:48 PM »
Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2063 on: November 06, 2013, 09:34:51 PM »
Always with the beautiful crust, Norma!

John K
I'm not wearing hockey pads!

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2064 on: November 07, 2013, 07:00:24 AM »
Always with the beautiful crust, Norma!

John K

Thanks John!

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2065 on: December 30, 2013, 06:06:38 PM »
It looks like Detroit Style Pizza Company is offering a Detroit Style Pizza Dough Recipe Mix. 

The Authentic Detroit Style Pizza Dough Recipe Mix includes ten packs of dough, which yields enough dough balls to bake 10 large or 20 small Authentic Detroit Style Pizzas. The mix is sold for $15 for 10 packs and ships to anywhere in the Continental U.S.

Commercial Authentic Detroit Style Pizza dough mix is also available to restaurants, pizzerias and other food vendors in bulk packages that yield 20 lbs. and 40 lbs. of dough, respectively. Commercial dough is available by contacting Detroit Style Pizza Co. via email.

http://detroitstylepizza.co/doughmix/ 

I wonder if there is an ingredient list and Nutrition Facts for the Authentic Detroit Style Pizza Dough Recipe Mix to be able to figure out how to clone their Detroit Style Pizza Recipe Mix.  :-D

There are also congratulations to John Kim and Sean Kwon Ė Newest Authentic Detroit Style Pizza Makers!

John Kim and Sean Kwon recently joined an elite group of pizza chefs by becoming our newest Authentic Detroit Style Pizza Makers! The pair to open an Authentic Detroit Style Pizzeria in Seoul, which promises to make Authentic Detroit Style Pizza an international sensation.

Born in Seattle, Washington and raised in Beijing, China, John Kim is globally cultured to say the least. He has traveled to over 26 different countries and heís fluent in three languages. John's love for pizza grew while attending the Johns Hopkins "joint venture" program. Late night pizza runs and a unique twist to reheat pizza slices on a frying pan for a crispy crust was Johnís favorite. Authentic Detroit Style Pizza crust is likewise crispy on the outside and he wants to make it as famous as Chicago and New York style pizza. John is a firm believer in joining the movement of spreading the Authentic Detroit Style Pizza around the world, and Seoul is the first stepping stone for him.

Similar to John, Sean Kwon was born in Seoul, Korea but grew up overseas and has spent all his life adapting to new cultures. He has lived in Taipei, Houston, Philadelphia, Beijing, and now he resides in Seoul. Having a passion for food and the restaurant industry, it was always Seanís dream to one day become a restaurateur. When John approached him with the idea of opening an Authentic Detroit Style Pizzeria in Seoul, Sean immediately came onboard and now the two are in the process of introducing this awesome style of pizza to South Korea.

John and Sean both share an ultimate goal to use their love for pizza to help orphans and people in need in South Korea one square pizza at a time. We wish John and Sean all our best in their noble quest!

Another link.  http://detroitstylepizza.com/uncategorized/authentic-detroit-style-pizza-lovers-holiday-wish-list/   

THE MOTOR CITY SECRET IS OUT - JOIN THE REVOLUTION!  ;D

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2066 on: January 28, 2014, 08:52:33 PM »
A few photos of 3 veggie Detroit style pizzas from today.

Norma


Offline FabioFognini

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Gummy Crumb Advice?
« Reply #2067 on: February 25, 2014, 08:31:16 PM »
I've been incrementally modifying my dough/cheese/sauce formulas, and I have to say (thanks largely to the folks who have posted so generously on this board), I'm getting happier and happier with the results.

That said: The last couple of pizzas, while very delicious, have consistently had a somewhat gummy texture to the crust. The crust browns nicely- but the crumb is a softer/gummier/wetter than I'd like (though, it does have decent voids) It's almost like it could use 30% more bake time than the entire rest of the pizza needs. I'm looking for something akin to the crumb shots Norma routinely posts- but mine is not as bright white, and I'd bet more dense/chewy in texture. Flavor is great but I'm looking for an...I don't know...a less...wet experience. I'm a big believer in changing only one variable at a time- so I'm wondering if anyone has a good idea as to what I should tinker with first in order to produce a more "dry" or airy crumb. Some candidates:

1) Flour type
2) Hydration %
3) Bake time/temp
4) Various voodoo (I'll try anything!)

For reference, I've been baking these at 500 degrees (preheated for an hour) on a stone, bottom oven rack, in the appropriate pans (from bucket outlet, seasoned, etc.) for 15 min. The dough formulation this time was:
Flour (75% All Trumps HG, 25% KAAP): 100%
Water: 75%
IDY: .6%
Salt: 2%

I've tried the above method/formula with different cheese blends, as well as with baking with the sauce in place and/or adding it after. To date, those don't seem to have any affect on the gummy situation.

Any ideas on what I should think about changing next, most likely suspects, etc. would be greatly appreciated!
-FF


Offline norma427

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Re: Gummy Crumb Advice?
« Reply #2068 on: February 25, 2014, 09:33:42 PM »
I've been incrementally modifying my dough/cheese/sauce formulas, and I have to say (thanks largely to the folks who have posted so generously on this board), I'm getting happier and happier with the results.

That said: The last couple of pizzas, while very delicious, have consistently had a somewhat gummy texture to the crust. The crust browns nicely- but the crumb is a softer/gummier/wetter than I'd like (though, it does have decent voids) It's almost like it could use 30% more bake time than the entire rest of the pizza needs. I'm looking for something akin to the crumb shots Norma routinely posts- but mine is not as bright white, and I'd bet more dense/chewy in texture. Flavor is great but I'm looking for an...I don't know...a less...wet experience. I'm a big believer in changing only one variable at a time- so I'm wondering if anyone has a good idea as to what I should tinker with first in order to produce a more "dry" or airy crumb. Some candidates:

1) Flour type
2) Hydration %
3) Bake time/temp
4) Various voodoo (I'll try anything!)

For reference, I've been baking these at 500 degrees (preheated for an hour) on a stone, bottom oven rack, in the appropriate pans (from bucket outlet, seasoned, etc.) for 15 min. The dough formulation this time was:
Flour (75% All Trumps HG, 25% KAAP): 100%
Water: 75%
IDY: .6%
Salt: 2%

I've tried the above method/formula with different cheese blends, as well as with baking with the sauce in place and/or adding it after. To date, those don't seem to have any affect on the gummy situation.

Any ideas on what I should think about changing next, most likely suspects, etc. would be greatly appreciated!
-FF

FabioFognini,

I could give you links in this thread so you might not have somewhat of a gummy texture, but tomorrow I am starting jury duty and don't have the time right now to look for all the links and answer your questions.  Maybe another member might have time to answer your questions.  If no one answers your questions I might be able to help when I am on the forum more.

Norma

Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: Gummy Crumb Advice?
« Reply #2069 on: February 25, 2014, 11:46:55 PM »

Any ideas on what I should think about changing next, most likely suspects, etc. would be greatly appreciated!
-FF

Hi FF.

I think your pizzas are looking quite good overall with good color on the sides and bottom.  Your crumb does look a little flat and that may be resulting in the dense and gummy texture you're getting.  I suspect that your dough is under-developed.

I would suggest
1.  Check to make sure your yeast isn't too old.  If it is buy new yeast.
2. If your yeast is okay, try upping the amount you are using, say up to 1% or a little more.
3.  Even though you are using  IDY, you may still try "activating" the yeast in some warm water prior to adding it to your flour/salt mixture.
4. Finally, check the temperature of the dough.  Make sure your water is not too hot (kills yeast) nor too cold. If you're mixing the dough by hand, I'd suggest 80 F water.  If using an electric mixer, try 65 or 70 F water.

Hope it helps and let us know when you get it figured out.

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2070 on: February 26, 2014, 07:16:56 AM »
FabioFognini,

I called a number for jury service last evening and no jurors have to report today that had been scheduled for a three day minimum of jury service.  The message said we will not be rescheduled either, so that is why I can try to answer some of your questions now.  I guess if I would not have looked at the website to find out information about reporting for juror service I would be driving in to the courthouse right now in the snow.  The website for juror duty did give a phone number to call after 6:00 PM last evening, but I did not call until after 10:00 PM. 

Thanks Tim for stepping in and helping Fabio out!

Peter's post at Reply 21 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=28783.msg290850#msg290850 give a link to how I handle the Detroit style dough and why it is not sticky when it is cold.  He references Replies 2005 and 2006 on this thread of how I use the two-step mixing process with a rest period in between, strengthens the gluten matrix and improves the hydration of the flour and other things.  I will link Reply 2005 where is located on this thread.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg264715.html#msg264715  I also explained to Gin at Reply 1991 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.msg262276#msg262276 how I mixed this dough at home in my Kitchen Aid mixer and what I did from there on.  You can see what Tim did at when making his Detroit style pizza and what combinations of flours he used at Reply 1992 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.msg263022#msg263022  In my Reply to Qarl at 1580 I linked to some bakes of a Detroit pizza in home ovens. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.msg239366#msg239366   

The flour type I had been using was the Occident flour which is bleached and bromated.  This week I tried the Full Strength flour and it seemed to work the same as the Occident flour.  I have upped the hydration I was using by feeling the dough when the first or second mix is done.  Watching how the doughs mixes helps me to do that, but your hydration of 75% should work fine.  I don't know what your combined protein levels are with using 75% All Trumps and 25% KAAP.

What does you dough look like in the steel pan after it is tempered and what type of mixer and mixing method are you using for the dough?  Also what TF are you using? 

If I can give any other help let me know.

Norma

Offline FabioFognini

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2071 on: February 26, 2014, 08:45:53 PM »
Tim,
Thanks much for the ideas and encouragement. While my yeast has about another 6 months before its expiration date, I think I'll go with a new package of IDY- it definitely couldn't hurt! I may also experiment with using a bit more and let you know how it goes.

Norma,
Very glad you didn't end up driving to the courthouse in the snow only to find you didn't have jury duty! And thanks also for pointing to the relevant pieces of discussion on this board- I think it's really helped!

I had been using a single mix in a home cuisinart stand mixer with a dough hook after a 15 min autolyse, and in retrospect, my mix has probably been far too short. The tempered dough in the pan hasn't been as puffy and "alive" looking as it did early on, or as much as the more successful examples on this board appear (mine's more smooth, less bumpy and bubbly).

After looking at the discussion to which you pointed, it seems clear to me that my dough is underdeveloped. It has plenty of time to hydrate with an overnight fermentation and a couple of hours to get back up to temp before being pressed into service, but it's clear looking at the pics that mine isn't as smooth and well developed as the less gummy examples posted here. I think my biggest adjustment will be to my mixing method, and I feel like that approach has some promise! I'll of course advise when I have some results (hopefully this weekend).

Thanks again,
Fabio


Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2072 on: February 26, 2014, 09:31:38 PM »
Tim,
Thanks much for the ideas and encouragement. While my yeast has about another 6 months before its expiration date, I think I'll go with a new package of IDY- it definitely couldn't hurt! I may also experiment with using a bit more and let you know how it goes.

Norma,
Very glad you didn't end up driving to the courthouse in the snow only to find you didn't have jury duty! And thanks also for pointing to the relevant pieces of discussion on this board- I think it's really helped!

I had been using a single mix in a home cuisinart stand mixer with a dough hook after a 15 min autolyse, and in retrospect, my mix has probably been far too short. The tempered dough in the pan hasn't been as puffy and "alive" looking as it did early on, or as much as the more successful examples on this board appear (mine's more smooth, less bumpy and bubbly).

After looking at the discussion to which you pointed, it seems clear to me that my dough is underdeveloped. It has plenty of time to hydrate with an overnight fermentation and a couple of hours to get back up to temp before being pressed into service, but it's clear looking at the pics that mine isn't as smooth and well developed as the less gummy examples posted here. I think my biggest adjustment will be to my mixing method, and I feel like that approach has some promise! I'll of course advise when I have some results (hopefully this weekend).

Thanks again,
Fabio

Fabio,

Thanks for saying you are glad I didn't drive to the courthouse to find out I really did not have to report for jury duty.  I could have postponed my jury summons for 6 months, but am glad now I did not.

Do you have a flat beater for your Cuisnart stand mixer?  I also believe you maybe you did not mix long enough with your dough hook.  I use speeds one and two on my Hobart at market to get the gluten strong on both mixes with only the flat beater.  I also use higher speeds at home in my Kitchen Aid mixer with my flat beater only in trying to develop the gluten until it is strong enough. 

You can always use you home oven with the light on only to help temper the dough until it looks high enough.  I have the heating unit at market to do that work for me. 

Good luck in your next attempt and let us know how it goes!

Norma

Offline Jackitup

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2073 on: February 26, 2014, 10:11:20 PM »
Do you have a flat beater for your Cuisnart stand mixer?  I also believe you maybe you did not mix long enough with your dough hook.  I use speeds one and two on my Hobart at market to get the gluten strong on both mixes with only the flat beater.  I also use higher speeds at home in my Kitchen Aid mixer with my flat beater only in trying to develop the gluten until it is strong enough. 
Norma

 ^^^
I do this also when making ciabatta/focaccia type doughs. Higher speeds with about 1/2 to 2/3 the flour and all of the water so I don't strain the machine too much and also keeps the dough from climbing up the beater. Add the rest of the flour towards the end and slow it down a bit using the spriral hook. Huge step on building that strong dough structure imo. Also spend a bit of time doing that slap/fold technique too

jon
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 10:13:13 PM by Jackitup »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #2074 on: March 01, 2014, 07:59:58 AM »
If anyone is interested in some articles from Detroit Style Pizza Co. these are links.

http://detroitstylepizza.com/uncategorized/how-to-make-authentic-detroit-style-pizza-sauce/

http://detroitstylepizza.com/uncategorized/interview-with-tony-gemignani/ 

Gene DiMillo recently earned his Authentic Detroit Style Pizza Maker status by training with World Champion Pizza Maker Shawn Randazzo at Detroit Style Pizza Co., and is joining Chris Tyll to open a new Italian pub in Maine.

Gene's family operates one of the top-five grossing restaurants in Maine, DiMillo's On The Water; and Chris is working on opening his third establishment after successfully owning and operating Pat's Pizza Old Port for four years and recently undertaking a unique boutique bowling alley project (the new restaurant will complement the bowling alley).

A Michigan native, Chris served 13 years in the Navy, including four tours in Iraq. The pair will also join with 22-year Olive Garden veteran Dale Hermann to bring Authentic Detroit Style Pizza to Maine. We wish them all the best and great success!

http://detroitstylepizza.com/uncategorized/the-1-best-way-to-market-detroit-style-pizza/ 

http://www.dailypress.com/entertainment/food/the-dish-blog/dp-union-brothers-detroitstyle-pizza-now-open-in-york-county-20140213,0,5869496.story 

Via 313 in this article.  http://www.fodors.com/news/where-to-eat-at-this-years-sxsw-festival-10328.html  I saw that Via 313 had a filming for Food Paradise for the Travel Channel this past week.  Way to go Zane and Brandon!  :chef: ;D 8)

Norma


 

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