Convert finished dough into a poolish?

[Pete-zza]

Thanks Pete!  So one final question.....I spoke with Amberlie at sourdo.com about using additional yeast as Jeff shows in his recipe but she said absolutely not!  She said that would defeat the purpose of using a culture.  Although Jeff shows yeast as an "optional" ingredient he does use it himself in his recipe.  It does seem contradictory to use yeast and a culture in the same recipe.  What do you guys think about this?

AJ72,

At one time, Jeff did use a combination of natural starter and commercial yeast in order to get more "puff" out of the dough and finished crust, as I mentioned in the second paragraph of Reply 162 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg94261/topicseen.html#msg94261. In that same post, I also discussed my experience in using a combination of natural starter and commercial yeast. I agree with Craig that you don't need to use any commercial yeast with the natural leavening if it is in good and active condition.

Peter

[AJ72]

Ok so if Marco recommends 1-5% vs with respect to water then what would that translate to vs weight of flour?  Thanks.

[AJ72]

In a nutshell guys what I'm trying to ask is......If I was to use the Lehmann NY Style Dough recipe at 65% hydration using cold fermentation and replacing IDY with starter, How much starter would you recommend with respect to 100% flour weight?  I would would be doing a 2 day cold ferment with a 2 hour warm rise before baking.  My goal is to produce a NY Style street pie without commercial yeast.  Thanks!

[Pete-zza]

Ok so if Marco recommends 1-5% vs with respect to water then what would that translate to vs weight of flour?  Thanks.

AJ72,

I wouldn't get hung up on that number. The reason why Marco recommended 1-5% starter with respect to the weight of water is because that is the way things are done in Naples. When they make the dough in Naples, they start with the water and then select the amounts of the other ingredients, including the starter (or commercial yeast, if used), with respect to the amount of water. In the U.S., we measure everything in a dough recipe, other than the flour, as a percent of the weight of the flour, not the water. Once you decide on which recipe to use, you can convert the 1-5% starter to a percent of the flour.

To give you a simple example, if you look at Craig's dough recipe at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20477.msg202047.html#msg202047, he uses the Ischia culture at 1.3% of the formula flour (the U.S. method). With 1300 grams of flour, the amount of Ischia culture he uses is 16.9 grams (1.3% of 1300 grams). The water in Craig's recipe comes to 62.5% of 1300 grams, or 812.5 grams. At 16.9 grams, the percent of the Ischia culture with respect to the formula water is 16.9/812.5 = 2.08%. So, his Ischia culture as a percent of the formula water falls within Marco's range.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

In a nutshell guys what I'm trying to ask is......If I was to use the Lehmann NY Style Dough recipe at 65% hydration using cold fermentation and replacing IDY with starter, How much starter would you recommend with respect to 100% flour weight?  I would would be doing a 2 day cold ferment with a 2 hour warm rise before baking.  My goal is to produce a NY Style street pie without commercial yeast.  Thanks!

AJ72,

You will not be able to use 1-5% natural culture with a cold fermentation application as you described. The 1-5% is for a dough that is to be fermented at room temperature, preferably at 64.4-68 degrees F (18-20 degrees C). You will need to use much more than 5% culture for a cold fermented dough. In experiments I conducted several years ago using a natural starter with the Lehmann NY style dough formulation, and where the dough was cold fermented (retarded) for 45 hours, I used 20% natural preferment (measured with respect to the formula flour). You can read the details as I reported them at the time at Reply 151 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg11774.html#msg11774. In your case, you would have to modify the Lehmann formulation based on the amount of dough you want to make, the size of the pizza, and the thickness of the crust that you are after.

Another member, Barry, recently attempted something along the lines that you have in mind. You might want to read about his efforts at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21530.msg217284.html#msg217284.
Peter

[norma427]

AJ72,

If you are interested in looking though my thread, this is where I used the Ischia starter for a Lehmann dough and did cold ferment it. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.0.html  Peter helped me with that thread.

Norma