Pizza Dough Recipe

[Letterpress Man]

Yeah, total newbie but you gotta start somewhere. We have a place here in upstate NY called Guiseppe's that makes excellent pizza. I really couldn't tell what style because it's pretty much the same as you'd get at any local pizza shop round here. It's a standard 12 cut rectangular pizza with a soft chewy center and crisp crust. The sauce isn't too heavy and the cheese is thick chewy and browned. The crust is probably 1/4" thick in the center and around 1/2" on the outside. I've been trying to come up with a dough and sauce combination that I like, but even though every attempt is real good, there's been none like the local shop. A friend who owns a local restaurant gave me their recipes, but it's still just not happening. I have a batch of dough that I made with high gluten flour and a bit of non-diastatic malt powder thrown in for good measure, that's been sitting in the fridge for the past 3 days for added flavour. I'm going to try that tonite to see how it comes out. But seriously, how do they do it? I'm using the same flour and same ADY because I'm buying it from my Sister-in-law who works at the local bakery. I know that everyone's tastes are different, so that adds to the whole difficulty. Most of what I come up with is good, but a tad flavourless. I added a Tablespoon of white vinegar to this batch as well as suggested in another thread. I guess what I'm looking for are suggestion or better yet recipes and I'll just have to try them one at a time to see if any work out for me.

[weemis]

In order to help you out, we'd need to see the recipe you're working with and also your process. Also pics of the pizza you're trying to make and then pics of what you've done as well. Once we have these details, someone will probably be able to help you out. Without all that stuff (or at least most of that stuff), it's nearly impossible to help out.

[The Dough Doctor]

L.M.;
You struck a note when you said "flavorless". Salt has a significant role in the flavor of the finished pizza crust, and many other foods for that matter. Maybe your dough formula is lacking in salt as compared to your target dough/crust. Maybe as a first step I would suggest that you make a couple doughs with increasing salt levels from where you're presently at. While we normally recommend salt levels in the neighborhood of 1.75% of the total flour weight, I've seen it as high as 3% too. If you go much beyond 3% the finished crust will begin to take on a bit of a salty taste.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

[AimlessRyan]

Doc, have you ever been to Sal & Carmine's, on the west side of Broadway at about 108th in Manhattan?

Talk about salt!!! That place must use about 10% salt in their dough. It was horrible, yet I think it's a very popular pizzeria (specifically because of the saltiness, from what I've read). This is one of a few places Michael Dorian (Pizza! The Movie) suggested that I try, so I had high hopes. However, I ended up very glad that I only bought one slice and saved room for a giant slice at Koronet, a couple blocks up the street.

[TomN]

L.M.;
You struck a note when you said "flavorless". Salt has a significant role in the flavor of the finished pizza crust, and many other foods for that matter. Maybe your dough formula is lacking in salt as compared to your target dough/crust. Maybe as a first step I would suggest that you make a couple doughs with increasing salt levels from where you're presently at. While we normally recommend salt levels in the neighborhood of 1.75% of the total flour weight, I've seen it as high as 3% too. If you go much beyond 3% the finished crust will begin to take on a bit of a salty taste.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom,

I use four cups of Pendleton POWER flour each time I make dough.  How much salt would you recommend to add? Thank you.

TomN

[Letterpress Man]

This was the recipe from my last attempt which turned out much better, but still not quite there:

- 2 cups of water
- 5 to 6 cups of high gluten flour
- 2-1/2 teaspoons of ADY
- 0.50 ounces of non-diastitic malt powder
- 1 teaspoon of kosher salt
- 4 teaspoons of canola oil

I mix the 2 cups of water (100 degrees) with the ADY and three cups of the flour, and mix on the lowest speed for two minutes. I then cover and let rest for twenty minutes. After this I uncover and mix on lowest speed for 5 minutes. Then I add a cup of flour and the salt and knead with the hook for three minutes; adding an additional cup of flour and kneading three minutes; and then adding the final amount of flour and kneading a final three minutes. I cover and let rest again for another 20 minutes; I then transfer to a greased bowl, cover and place into the refrigerator for three days...pressing down the dough if it starts to rise more than the double mark I have on the container. After three days I remove from the fridge, press down, let rest 20 minutes, separate the dough in two, sheet it and dress it and then let it rest on top of the stove while the oven warms up for 20-30 minutes. I place the pizza pan directly on top of my stone, which is placed on the floor of the oven and bake it about 15 minutes at around 550 degrees. Why not bake it on the stone itself? I do, but more times than not I just bake them on my 14" American Metalcraft pans that I purchased. After an almost 12 hour work day it's often just easier to get the sucker onto a pan than try and wrangle with the peel and stone. I'm going to make a couple changes to this when I make it again tonite. I'm going to up the malt powder to 0.80 ounces; use EVOO instead of canola oil, add two teaspoons of sugar and up the kosher salt to 1-1/2 teaspoons.

[AimlessRyan]

Letterpress Man,

If you measure non-diastitic malt powder by weight, as it appears you do, why don't you also measure flour and water by weight and express your dough recipe/formula in bakers' percents?

[Letterpress Man]

That would probably be a great idea, but since my kitchen scale died a while back and I didn't feel like waiting until I got a new one, I carried on the old fashion way. I've since procured a new one, and I suppose once I zero in on something I'd consider calling my own, I'll get it down on paper in weights. Laziness really. I can't leave the scale out or the kids will break it...like the previous one. And sometimes I just don't feel like going to the minimal effort to go get it from it's secure hiding place. I figured the amount of DME based on 2% of the flour's weight from the original recipe I started with......

Flour.....40.00 ounces
Water.....22.00 ounces
ADY.....0.625 ounces
Sugar.....0.50 ounces
Salt.....0.75 ounces
Oil.....0.875 ounces

[weemis]

That would probably be a great idea, but since my kitchen scale died a while back and I didn't feel like waiting until I got a new one, I carried on the old fashion way. I've since procured a new one, and I suppose once I zero in on something I'd consider calling my own, I'll get it down on paper in weights. Laziness really. I can't leave the scale out or the kids will break it...like the previous one. And sometimes I just don't feel like going to the minimal effort to go get it from it's secure hiding place. I figured the amount of DME based on 2% of the flour's weight from the original recipe I started with......

Flour.....40.00 ounces
Water.....22.00 ounces
ADY.....0.625 ounces
Sugar.....0.50 ounces
Salt.....0.75 ounces
Oil.....0.875 ounces

Just to get us all on the same page, I've calculated your recipe in grams (rounded to the nearest whole number), unequivocally easier in math, then broken it down into baker's percentages.


flour... 1134 gr (100%)
water... 624 gr (56%)
yeast...   18 gr (1.5%)
Salt...     21 gr (1.8%)
oil...       25 gr (2.2%)

you should play around with the dough calculator. it has recommendations as to amounts of each ingredient. this also allows you to make as many dough balls as you want at a time, which is priceless!

http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html

also, now you can compare your recipe to other recipes on this site.

[weemis]

if you have any questions about bakers percentages, check out this link:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6329.0.html

[Letterpress Man]

Okay then, I'll be away playing for some time with this baby. Ta very much.

[The Dough Doctor]

Ryan;
My favorite N.Y. Pizzeria is Patsy's (Brooklyn) or is it now Grimaldi's? Whatever, if it was good enough for Frank Sinatra it is plenty good for me. Truthfully, it's my favorite pizza place in New York.
Tom Lehmann

[c0mpl3x]

try bringing up your water to 62% and your oil down to .5%, just a guess.

without a benchmark for us to go off of, it's kind of hard to dial in what you are looking to get. is there any national chains that come to mind? or chains in your area? many members are all over here, and one or several may know of one or several of the shops you visit and can impact your results more directly

[Letterpress Man]

Okay, thanks for the help. After several trial batches I think I finally have my dough right where I want it. Now onto the sauce! My shipment from Escalon will be in this afternoon, and that's what I'll be using to start a new with. I ordered the 6 IN 1 All-Purpose Ground Tomatoes in Extra-Heavy Puree. I'm thinking that I may just add that alone as the sauce and top with mozzarella to see how it tastes. The sauce I've been making in the past is spiced very sparingly, but it still seems overpowering. The local pizza that I'm fond of seems to just use a plain tomato sauce. I've tried to detect spices in it, but it really just looks and tastes like fresh sweet tomato. I'm going to try asking the girl who makes the pizza if she'll tell me how she makes the sauce...it's a long shot. At the very least I might find out what the tomato products are. I've seen the US Foodservice trucks and the Sysco trucks both there making deliveries, so that narrows it down a bit. The girl who makes the pizza did tell me last time I was in that the cheese is only mozzarella and not a blend like I thought. Again, it probably tastes better because it's restaurant quality from US Foodservice or Sysco.

[AimlessRyan]

I like you, man. Nice detective work.

In my opinion, you're on the right track with your thoughts about sauce. My experience is that most really good sauce is very simple, and it starts with high quality tomato product. With that in mind, I always use high quality tomato product for pizzas I consider "Ryan style," and I rarely add anything to the sauce. However, I change this approach as soon as I start trying to clone certain pizzerias' pizza, because I'm more interested in replicating their pizza than making it great. In those cases, I usually use a lower quality tomato product and add whatever I feel makes it taste like the pizza I'm trying to clone.

It's easier to make good pizza by using good ingredients and simplicity than it is to clone mediocre pizza by using lower quality ingredients and additives to mask the low quality of the ingredients (which is what most pizzerias and chains do).

But it sounds like the pizzeria you frequent has some pretty good-quality, simple sauce. So if you keep making it simpler and you still feel like it should be even simpler, don't hesitate to go so far as using a good tomato product straight out of the can. It might end up being your 'Eureka' moment.

Despite my opinion that great sauce is most easily made out of high quality tomato product straight out of the can, trying to make decent sauce out of mediocre tomato product has really upped my game.

[Letterpress Man]

Is there really that much difference between brands of high gluten flour? I ordered some King Arthur Sir Lancelot to experiment with, and I ended up creating exactly what I was looking for. So, not wishing to spend that kind of money for only 3 pounds of flour I opted for a better plan. My sister-in-law works at a local bakery and I asked her to get me some. What she got me was Hummer high gluten flour. The first thing I noticed was the strong smell of the flour; this hadn't been apparent in the KASL. Thinking that maybe it was the storage container the flour was in I poured the flour into another, but no it was the flour. Anyroad, I made some pizza dough and Italian bread. While both came out great, they had a much different aroma and taste than did the dough I made with the KASL. Is it just me, or is there that big a difference between brands?? If so, I just found a local store that is supplied by the Dutch Valley Food Distributors, and they carry every conceivable kind of flour, including the KASL in 50 pound bags!! And at about $25 it's a great bargain. Any thoughts...similar experiences??

[norma427]

Is there really that much difference between brands of high gluten flour?

Letterpress Man,

I have used KASL, All Trumps, Kyrol, Pillsbury Balancer and ADM high gluten flour.  They all worked for me.  I really liked KASL, but since it is more expensive than the other flours that is why I stopped using it.

Right now I am using Kyrol and it performs good for me.  All the above flours make about the same pizza for me.  I never noticed any unusual smell in any of the high gluten flours I have used. 

I never tried Hummer high gluten flour though, so can’t comment on that. 

If you have access to flours from Dutch Valley, the GM Full Strength and the Occident bromated also are good flours to used for pizza, but they are a little lower in protein and both are bromated.

Experiment and have fun! 

Norma

[The Dough Doctor]

Letterpress Man;
Keep in mind that there is no standard for "Hi-Gluten" when it comes to flour. We have tested some HG flours and found them at between 10 and 11% protein content, while others are at 12 to as high as 14%, especially for the commercial flours such as All Trumps, Remarkable, Big Spring, Power, Regal, Gigantic, Hi-Rise, and Dominator, to name just a few. I agree with Norma, and I'll go so far as to say that regardless of what it says on the bag, if the flour works for you, it's the right flour for you. By all means shop around and evaluate different flours, experimenting is half of the fun of making pizza, the other half is eating your creations, and as I've been known to say, "don't worry about making mistakes, they'll taste good too".
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

[Letterpress Man]

This is a blast. I love pizza; and actually ate it pretty much every nite when I was at college...decades ago. Anyroad, now I have a kind of different issue. I believe I have the dough perfect...recipe listed below. Problem is that when I take it out of the refrigerator, punch it down and let it rest while it comes up to room temperature; when I go to sheet it, it doesn't hold it's shape...it shrinks back. I try letting it rest longer and it does make it sheet better, but everything I've tried it still takes maybe a good 10 minutes to get it stretched out to the full size of the pan. I know that this is because of the high gluten flour, but how do ya'll...or even pizza places for that matter...get it stretched out and sheeted? I've heard of dough relazer, but I'm very hesitant to add anything like that to my precious dough. Is it something simple like I'm kneading too long and making too much gluten?

High Gluten Flour (100%).....534.43 grams
Water (63%).....................336.69 grams
ADY (0.75%)........................4.01 grams
Salt (3.0%)........................16.03 grams
Oil (2%).............................10.69 grams
Sugar (1%)..........................5.34 grams
Total (169.75%)..................907.2 grams

I typically add the yeast, water and sugar to the stand mixer and stir for 2 minutes on setting 1 with the paddle; then I add half the flour and stir for 5 minutes on setting 1 with the paddle; I cover and let rest for 20 minutes; then I add the other half of the flour, the salt and oil, and when it comes together I knead for 10 minutes on setting 2 with the hook; I let it rest again for 20 minutes and then place it into a covered greased bowl in the refrigerator for 1 to 3 days.

[Pizza De Puta]

The problem you describe is "elasticity".  Turn up the heat and set your kitchen temperature for 80 degrees.  After proofing your dough in the fridge for at least 24 hours, let your dough sit out for three hours and don't open the dough balls until they warm up to at least 70 degrees.  This should keep them from shrinking back after stretching.

This is a blast. I love pizza; and actually ate it pretty much every nite when I was at college...decades ago. Anyroad, now I have a kind of different issue. I believe I have the dough perfect...recipe listed below. Problem is that when I take it out of the refrigerator, punch it down and let it rest while it comes up to room temperature; when I go to sheet it, it doesn't hold it's shape...it shrinks back. I try letting it rest longer and it does make it sheet better, but everything I've tried it still takes maybe a good 10 minutes to get it stretched out to the full size of the pan. I know that this is because of the high gluten flour, but how do ya'll...or even pizza places for that matter...get it stretched out and sheeted? I've heard of dough relazer, but I'm very hesitant to add anything like that to my precious dough. Is it something simple like I'm kneading too long and making too much gluten?

High Gluten Flour (100%).....534.43 grams
Water (63%).....................336.69 grams
ADY (0.75%)........................4.01 grams
Salt (3.0%)........................16.03 grams
Oil (2%).............................10.69 grams
Sugar (1%)..........................5.34 grams
Total (169.75%)..................907.2 grams

I typically add the yeast, water and sugar to the stand mixer and stir for 2 minutes on setting 1 with the paddle; then I add half the flour and stir for 5 minutes on setting 1 with the paddle; I cover and let rest for 20 minutes; then I add the other half of the flour, the salt and oil, and when it comes together I knead for 10 minutes on setting 2 with the hook; I let it rest again for 20 minutes and then place it into a covered greased bowl in the refrigerator for 1 to 3 days.