Author Topic: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps  (Read 6091 times)

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Offline fazzari

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bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« on: October 21, 2012, 03:08:26 AM »
I finally got a 50 pound bag of bromated All Trumps from the East Coast, because I am interested in doing some testing on my own.  I want to see with my own eyes the effects this flour will have on my NY style pizzas and ultimately with my cracker crusts.  And in fact, this week I should receive a product called King Kaiser, which I am told is All Trumps with ascorbic acid added...and then I can test all three.

But, for the first experiment I made two batches of dough, one with unbleached All Trumps and the other with bromated All Trumps.  Everything was identical in the two batches except the flour:

flour  100%
water  62       70 degrees
salt      2
sugar    2
oil        2
IDY       .5

mix 4 minutes.  Rest 5 minutes. Mix 3 minutes.  Scale, ball, and refrigerate.

The first two doughs in the experiment were in the fridge 24 hours, and then were taken out to warm up for 2 hours.  You can see from the picture below, that one of the doughs is noticably larger...that one is the bromated one.

John


Offline fazzari

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Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2012, 03:20:49 AM »
I stretched out both doughs, dressed them and baked them in my deck at work (565 degrees tonight).  They both took 5 minutes to bake, both browned nicely, and both were delicious.  Oven spring was greater in the bromated crust, and the bromated crust was more tender, not as chewy as the unbleached pie.  The winner of the first test is clearly the bromated pie.
The first 3 pictures are the bromated crusts and the last 3 are the unbleached crusts.
John

Offline fazzari

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Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2012, 03:27:34 AM »
I also used part of the bag to sheet out cracker crusts.  The bromated dough is a lot different, it seems drier, and stronger, and I noticed I had to adjust my sheeter to roll thinner than normal to get the right thickness factor.  The pizza below is 33 hours old.  It has good oven spring, but the bottom isn't quite what I'm looking for...we'll see what a bit more age does to these doughs.
John

Offline norma427

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Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2012, 08:08:40 AM »
John,

Your experiments are very interesting and will looking forward to more.   ;D

All of your pizzas look very tasty!

Norma
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Offline scott r

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Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2012, 09:34:48 AM »
aah... same findings as me.    non bromated all trumps is pretty much just like kasl.    I actually have better luck with harvest king, which is not bromated.   It matches the bromated all trumps a little better in tenderness.  Im interested to hear how the dough with ascorbic acid turns out.   In my tests it still was not nearly as nice as the bromated crusts I made.   

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2012, 10:09:30 AM »
John, is the cracker crust docked?  Thanks.
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2012, 10:45:13 AM »
John,

I don't know if you saw the PMQ Think Tank thread on the All Trumps bromated versus unbromated issue at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=78733#p78733 but Tom Lehmann weighs in on that topic in that thread. I thought somewhere that I had read that Tom indicated that a bromated flour didn't require as long a mix as the unbromated version. However I could not find any post where he said that. But, in the same thread, the member AFS, who made a switch from the bromated All Trumps to the unbromated version said that he had to increase the mix time. Also, scott123 indicated that a bromated high-gluten flour does not need as much knead time as an unbromated high-gluten flour, at Reply 1032 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg162683/topicseen.html#msg162683. If all of this is true, then a truer test of the two versions of the All Trumps flour might call for a shorter knead time for the bromated All Trumps than for the unbromated All Trumps.

You might also note from Tom's PMQTT post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=30723#p30723 that he sees merit in the bromated All Trumps when the cold fermentation time goes beyond three days.

Peter

Offline scott r

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Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2012, 11:08:59 AM »
My findings showed that its not true.    general mills told me to do the same thing and it doesn't help at all.   Maybe john will test and find out that im an arse.    Mixing the non bromated all trumps longer just made it even more chewy for me.   

Offline fazzari

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Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2012, 02:16:07 AM »
John,

I don't know if you saw the PMQ Think Tank thread on the All Trumps bromated versus unbromated issue at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=78733#p78733 but Tom Lehmann weighs in on that topic in that thread. I thought somewhere that I had read that Tom indicated that a bromated flour didn't require as long a mix as the unbromated version. However I could not find any post where he said that. But, in the same thread, the member AFS, who made a switch from the bromated All Trumps to the unbromated version said that he had to increase the mix time. Also, scott123 indicated that a bromated high-gluten flour does not need as much knead time as an unbromated high-gluten flour, at Reply 1032 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg162683/topicseen.html#msg162683. If all of this is true, then a truer test of the two versions of the All Trumps flour might call for a shorter knead time for the bromated All Trumps than for the unbromated All Trumps.

You might also note from Tom's PMQTT post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=30723#p30723 that he sees merit in the bromated All Trumps when the cold fermentation time goes beyond three days.

Peter

Thanks for the info Peter...don't believe I had read that until now.  I have read all that scott has written on the bromated flours, and am going to eventually experiment with shorter mix times, but I had to start somewhere, so I started exactly where my dough process is right now.

Norma, maybe one day on our birthday we will meet and share a pizza..what do ya think?

John

Offline fazzari

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Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2012, 02:23:40 AM »
Tonight I had round 2 of bromated dough experiments after work.  The following 2 doughs were 50 hours old, and were taken out to warm up two hours prior to bake.  Again, you can see, that the bromated dough is much larger than the other one.  Each of these was baked in a hotter oven tonight (580 degrees), they each amazingly took just a hair over 4 minutes to bake.  They both browned very nicely, especially the bottoms...again I notice that the bromated dough has more oven spring....both are delicious and tender.  Although the crusts are again completely golden brown they are not what I would consider crisp, they are foldable (if that is a word)
John


Offline fazzari

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Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2012, 02:33:25 AM »
But, now for the pizza of the night.  This is a cracker crust I rolled 56 hours ago.  I baked it in a 540 degree oven.  Pictures can't come close to describing this pizza.  Member Essen once described the perfect pizza as having an egg shell bottom, with pillows of softness above that...(it was something like that!!).  Well believe it or not, you can obtain this texture with a cracker crust also, and the one below is one of them.  You can see the difference in the bottom shot alone...you can see the tiny little blisters all along the bottom..and these equal tenderness.  By the way, we don't dock our doughs JD.  I don't attribute this to bromated flour though, as I have had many, many of these over the years...with just normal everyday flour.....but maybe I could achieve them even more often...who knows?
John

Offline scott r

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Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2012, 03:08:17 AM »
I really really want to try one of those.    Can I buy one and you freeze it for me?   would that be the best way to do it?             

Offline scott r

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Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2012, 03:11:38 AM »
I think the only laminated pizza I have ever had was round table.... and I know your kicking their ass.   

Offline norma427

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Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2012, 09:28:59 AM »
John,

Interesting experiments!  :chef:  All those pies look great.

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2012, 11:48:52 PM »
Interesting day today.  Last two doughballs......64 hours old......but these I reballed because I thought they needed some energy.  I reballed them 12 hours prior to bake and took them out to warm up 3 hours prior to bake.  Again you can see, the bromated dough is larger.  The bromated dough was much, much stronger than the other one and was tougher to stretch out.  But, the bromated dough has much more oven spring, and I think made a beautiful pizza.  But as for the tasting....the reball raises both doughs many notches in my books... both crusts were crisp, and light, and of course extremely flavorful given the time they've fermented.  Could not pick a best pizza today for taste, but by appearance I'd say bromated dough hand's down.  I'd be proud to serve either of these pies.
John

Offline fazzari

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Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2012, 12:00:58 AM »
My experiment with my cracker dough was another huge success as far as quality goes.  I baked a skin rolled 72 hours ago, and it was fantastic.  I am amazed the quality is holding on so long, maybe this goes to the Dough Doctor's remarks about bromated flours for doughs held 3 days or more.  I'll find out more tomorrow.
John

Online Pete-zza

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Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2012, 12:08:02 AM »
John,

In the photos, can you tell us which pizza was made with the bromated flour and which was made with the unbromated flour?

Peter

Offline scott123

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Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2012, 04:54:12 PM »
This is incredibly informative, John. Well done.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2012, 05:57:42 PM »
Excellent work as always John. Could you please put up a crumb shot of this experimental cracker. Also, did you laminate/bookfold this or just shoot it straight on through your sheeter? Baked right after sheeting?     Thanks.
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Offline fazzari

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Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2012, 10:09:57 PM »
John,

In the photos, can you tell us which pizza was made with the bromated flour and which was made with the unbromated flour?

Peter

Peter
Sorry, the first three pictures of each reply are the bromated ones.
 John


 

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