Author Topic: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps  (Read 6412 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 902
Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2012, 10:19:25 PM »
Excellent work as always John. Could you please put up a crumb shot of this experimental cracker. Also, did you laminate/bookfold this or just shoot it straight on through your sheeter? Baked right after sheeting?     Thanks.

Bob,
Our workflow is as follows:
Mix the dough
Let the dough rise (about 80 to 90 minutes)
Sheet the dough (we laminate ours) and cut out skins
Stack the skins and refrigerate

The following cracker was rolled on Friday, so this is 96 hours old.  Under normal circumstances it would be hard to get a skin this old to form a crust, and in most cases the oven tender would be constantly trying to find a hot spot in is oven to get some color.  But, not this one.....this is another fantastic crust.  And if you look very carefully at the crumb shot you will see the tiniest of pinholes which were created during the lamination process.  I can't believe I even mean it, but maybe tomorrows pizza will be as good?
The crumb shot is not of the pepperoni, green pepper and onion pizza, but of another experimental one we had tonight.
John
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 10:22:23 PM by fazzari »


Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 902
Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2012, 10:34:37 PM »
This is incredibly informative, John. Well done.

Scott,
This is nothing but absolute fun for me...unfortunately, my allergies are just killing me right now...that's right flour kills me!  But, the bromate issue brings up many more questions for me, perhaps I can answer some with some more experiments.  As I told you, I am awaiting the bleached, ascorbic acid added stuff and then I'll try some more fun things for experiments.  It's unfortunate that one cannot learn with so few experiments.  My God, sometimes it takes a week or two of mulitiple tens of bags to figure what is going on with my my dough.  Anyway, I'm sure I'll have alot to bounce off you after the next couple weeks.

John

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10811
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Easy peazzy
Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2012, 10:59:36 PM »
Bob,
Our workflow is as follows:
Mix the dough
Let the dough rise (about 80 to 90 minutes)
Sheet the dough (we laminate ours) and cut out skins
Stack the skins and refrigerate

The following cracker was rolled on Friday, so this is 96 hours old.  Under normal circumstances it would be hard to get a skin this old to form a crust, and in most cases the oven tender would be constantly trying to find a hot spot in is oven to get some color.  But, not this one.....this is another fantastic crust.  And if you look very carefully at the crumb shot you will see the tiniest of pinholes which were created during the lamination process.  I can't believe I even mean it, but maybe tomorrows pizza will be as good?
The crumb shot is not of the pepperoni, green pepper and onion pizza, but of another experimental one we had tonight.
John

John,

Thanks so much for your reply. I have been following you for some time and am real happy to have just read your last post to Scott indicating that you are inspired enough with these current experimentations to say that you two will have much to bounce back an forth in the coming weeks. Look forward to that! I am in planning mode to go forward with something commercial soon myself and I like the way you think.

Appreciate the crumb shot you posted as per my request and that pie looks great, also displays your characteristic lamination in the rim. Not trying to be a stickler here but I am very interested in the crumb of the pie you posted in the following pic that I will post up here at my closing. John, if your journey with this current topic leads you to be able to replicate this particular pie(which I'd bet money will happen) please put up a crumb shot of this when it is found again...thank you sir!  :chef:

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 902
Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2012, 06:07:28 PM »
Here's a 5 day old laminated cracker crust made from bromated All Trumps.  It is simply unbelievable, that an excellent quality and textured crust could possibly last this long.....this is an all star pizza!

John


Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 902
Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2012, 11:48:24 PM »
Made two more batches of NY style doughs, one with unbleached All Trumps the other with bleached and bromated All Trumps. Made both batches exactly the same using the same ingredients as the first experiment, but changed up on the mixing.  Each of the doughs is mixed exactly 3 minutes....it is then bagged and left to bulk ferment in the fridge.  The following doughs were baked at the 42 hour mark.  They each were balled and scaled at the 29 hour mark, and were taken out to warm up 3 hours prior to bake.  Again the bromated dough is a lot larger than its counterpart, it is also a ton stronger and takes much more energy to open up.  The bromated dough also exhibits a lot more oven spring.  Because these doughs were balled about 11 hours prior to bake, they are nice and crisp, with the unbromated one being the crispier.  Both pizzas delicious, with excellent texture.  Although my ovens are a little cooler right now (535) the pizzas cooked in right at 5 minutes.  The first set of pictures is the bromated one.

John

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 902
Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2012, 11:51:19 PM »
And last is my 7 day old cracker dough made with the bromated All Trumps.  Still and excellent crust..which is simply amazing to me.
John

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22127
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2012, 07:27:19 AM »
John,

That is an interesting set of experiments. To my eye, the pizzas made using the bromated All Trumps look more appealing.

It would be interesting to see if there are ways to get the unbromated All Trumps to perform like the bromated All Trumps, for the benefit of those who might want to avoid the potassium bromate. For example, I wonder what the results would be if you increased the hydration of the unbromated All Trumps dough, used more yeast and a longer fermentation. It also appears that you did not re-ball the dough balls, as you have done on prior occasions. This makes me wonder what would happen if you reballed the dough ball with the unbromated All Trumps.

Peter


Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 902
Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2012, 10:54:24 PM »
John,

That is an interesting set of experiments. To my eye, the pizzas made using the bromated All Trumps look more appealing.

It would be interesting to see if there are ways to get the unbromated All Trumps to perform like the bromated All Trumps, for the benefit of those who might want to avoid the potassium bromate. For example, I wonder what the results would be if you increased the hydration of the unbromated All Trumps dough, used more yeast and a longer fermentation. It also appears that you did not re-ball the dough balls, as you have done on prior occasions. This makes me wonder what would happen if you reballed the dough ball with the unbromated All Trumps.

Peter

Yes, they are interesting!!  I'm thinking that because the bromated doughs are so strong compared to the others that scaling and balling the unbromated doughs closer to bake time will make up for this.  I'll give it shake tomorrow and see what happens.  I'm not reballing any of this batch because the doughs were bulk fermented.
John
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 11:01:52 PM by fazzari »

Offline Don K

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1281
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Ohio
Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2012, 11:01:22 PM »
Is the protein content the same for both the bromated and unbromated?
The member formerly known as Colonel_Klink

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 902
Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2012, 11:04:09 PM »
Is the protein content the same for both the bromated and unbromated?

Both are 14.2
John


Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 902
Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2012, 11:13:40 PM »
Todays doughs were baked at the 65 hour mark.  They were scaled and balled 12 hours prior to baking and were taken out to warm up 2 hours prior to baking.  I had a 580 degree oven to use today.  As usual the bromated dough is much larger than the other, is much stronger, and has much more oven spring.  The first 3 pics of pizza is the bromated one.  Both pizzas were excellent to eat, the unbromated one has better texture, it is crisper.
John

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 902
Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2012, 09:47:21 PM »
I've finally found some time to compare the bromated All Trumps with bleached and ascorbic acid added King Kaiser (which is the All Trumps flour).  From the reading I've done, ascorbic acid is one of the conditioners used in flour to replace the bromates...so I was wondering how good a replacement it is.

In this round I made two identical batches of dough using the two flours...I used the same proportions of ingredients as the beginning of this thread, but this time I prefermented 25% of the flour (16 hour poolish).  The doughs were mixed a total of 3 minutes, then scaled, balled and refrigerated.

These doughs were in the fridge 23 hours and were taken out 3 hours prior to baking.  Both doughs rose nicely in the fridge, both doughs opened very easily, in fact, I probably should have let them warm up only 1 hour.  The first 3 pics are the bromated dough, the second 3 are the ascorbic acid added dough.  They both are equally tasty , nothing exceptional, and didn't brown as thoroughly as I enjoy.
John

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10811
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Easy peazzy
Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2012, 10:07:29 PM »
Thanks for your continuing experimentations fazzari
no more cracker trials with that outrageous rise crust for this dough?
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 902
Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2012, 10:27:07 PM »
The second day of using these two doughs was amazing.  Knowing that the previous doughs were rather loose, I chose to reball these.  These doughs were in the fridge 45 hours, were reballed 12 hours prior to baking and were taken out to warm up 3 hours prior to baking.  The doughs seem to be almost identical in texture, flavor, and appearance....they also were crisp, they browned beautifully (top and bottom) and were two of the better doughs I've ever eaten.  My crew concurred, as they loved them.  Again, the first 3 pics are the bromated dough.

John


Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 902
Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2012, 10:30:45 PM »
Thanks for your continuing experimentations fazzari
no more cracker trials with that outrageous rise crust for this dough?

I've got half a bag left of the King Kaiser that I will use on more cracker doughs...I'll make sure and post what I find.  We used 3 bags of the King Kaiser at work, and thought the doughs were excellent...I happened to be away for a few days and wasn't able to document things the way I like...but my brother said they were excellent.

John

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10811
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Easy peazzy
Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2012, 10:36:17 PM »
Thank you John...you make awesome pizza man.  8)
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 902
Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2012, 10:21:49 PM »
3rd day of dough comparisons.  These doughs were in the fridge 69 hours, were reballed 12 hours prior to bake and were warmed up 3 hours prior to bake.  Excellent, excellent pizzas..the both of them were almost identical.  The first 3 pics are the bromated dough, and the second 3 the ascorbic acid dough
John

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 902
Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2012, 10:25:21 PM »
I also baked off a cracker crust made from the bromated flour, it was rolled a couple weeks ago and frozen.  I took it out of the freezer 5 days ago.  It cooked up rather nicely...and although it is not perfect, the point is it is good for as old as it is.  Any other old crust would cook up white, pimply and have the texture of a rag
John

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 902
Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2012, 10:46:46 PM »
The experiments I have done with the All Trumps, the bromated All Trumps, and the King Kaiser flour have given me a clue, just a clue of what I believe is happening.  These are almost anecdotal experiments in that they are so small, and involve so few of the differing variables available to the pizza maker.  Having said that, given that most of the experiments were baked in ovens at around the 540 to 550 mark, and given the very limited ways I used to mix the doughs, and given that the results of the  experiments I have done on my own laminated cracker crusts have a bearing in my thinking about the New york style pizzas, I think that:
1)  The bromated doughs and the ascorbic acid doughs are much stronger than the other doughs, and because of this, they seem to make a better pizza than the others as they age...(I'm talking about not manipulating the dough at all as it ages).  As for my cracker crusts, the bromated doughs don't make a better crust..but they do make a crust the ages much, much better than other doughs.  By using good dough management one can overcome the aging problem.
2)  Again given the very limited experimental parameters I used, I can see no verifiable difference in the doughs containing bromates and those containing ascorbic acid.
3)  Even though the aged bromated doughs are much better than the plain ones, one can even the playing field by reballing doughs, which I believe give a much better texture.  Even the bromated doughs eventually are helped by reballing.

John

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10811
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Easy peazzy
Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2012, 11:09:27 PM »
Such great experimenting, thanks John! The way you report/keep track of your findings, as always, is most impressive and beneficial....it is much appreciated.   :chef:
Please, what is your "usual" flour used there at the shop for the crackers?
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"