bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps

[Don K]

Those pies are gorgeous John!

[Pete-zza]

John,

I was getting ready to ask you what conclusions your drew from your experiments on the bromated vs. ascorbic acid doughs when I saw your recent post on your conclusions.

I was doing some research on the General Mills high-gluten flours and, interestingly, it looks like the only high-gluten flour they offer that has the ascorbic acid is the King Kaiser, at 45-55 ppm (http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/king-kaiser-flour-bleached-ascorbic-acid-enriched-malted-50-lb/54472000?mct=Flour&ct=high-gluten&typ=Type). As best I can tell, the only All Trumps flour that GM offers that has the same specs as the King Kaiser flour, but for the use of the bromate, is the version at http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/all-trumps-flour-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/50121000?mct=Flour&ct=general-mills-all-trumps&typ=Brand. That version comes in a 50-pound bag. Is that the version you used for your experiments? I ask this question because that version is not bleached. GM sells a bleached and bromated All Trumps flour but only in 25- and 100-pound bags, and the specs for those flours are slightly different than the specs for the unbleached bromated All Trumps (see, for example, the specs for the 25-pound bag bleached/bromated All Trumps at http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/all-trumps-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-25-lb/50115000?mct=Flour&ct=general-mills-all-trumps&typ=Brand).

Some time ago, when I was trying to clone the Papa John's dough, I saw from the ingredients list I was able to get for their dough that they used ascorbic acid. I suspected that PJ might have been using something along the lines of a high-gluten flour or maybe a bread flour so I used 45-55 ppm of ascorbic acid, which is the amount that GM typically uses when adding ascorbic acid to its high-gluten and bread flours. I don't recall how I converted 45-55 ppm to a volume measurement, but for my amount of dough it was between a "smidgen" and a "pinch" mini measuring spoon. I was hoping to learn something from that experiment, but I could not detect any difference from using the ascorbic acid.

As an aside, I see that GM apparently no longer uses ascorbic acid for its Harvest King flour. My recollection is that at one time they used it for both the retail and professional versions of that flour.

Peter

[scott r]

Peter.   As you know I did some trials with adding ascorbic acid to doughs trying to get non bromated flours to perform like bromated flours.   I was unsuccessful, but after reading this I would like to try a few more times.   I wonder if I wasn't using enough during my first trials.   Do you have a guess as to what percentage I should use to get close to 55 ppm in a dough formulation?  I usually use the expanded pizza calculator on our forum, so I could easily plug a number into that.

By the way our friend in toronto seems to be doing very well.   It is crazy how different the flours (and the cheeses) are up there.  We have been trying a bunch of different ones, and many do come with ascorbic acid there.   

[Pete-zza]

Peter.   As you know I did some trials with adding ascorbic acid to doughs trying to get non bromated flours to perform like bromated flours.   I was unsuccessful, but after reading this I would like to try a few more times.   I wonder if I wasn't using enough during my first trials.   Do you have a guess as to what percentage I should use to get close to 55 ppm in a dough formulation?  I usually use the expanded pizza calculator on our forum, so I could easily plug a number into that.

By the way our friend in toronto seems to be doing very well.   It is crazy how different the flours (and the cheeses) are up there.  We have been trying a bunch of different ones, and many do come with ascorbic acid there.    

scott r,

The notes I wrote on the PJ document that I got from PJ says 45-55 ppm equals 0.0045%-0.0055%. Most likely, I used a conversion calculator like the one at http://www.rapidtables.com/convert/number/PPM_to_Percent.htm. From what I can tell from a Google search, one teaspoon of ground ascorbic acid weighs 5.12 grams. That is the conversion factor I would use in the expanded dough calculating tool. I'm sure that at some point I boosted the above percent out of curiosity but, again, I did not detect any difference. Ascorbic acid prevents the gluten bonds from breaking down during kneading but from what I have read the mechanism for doing so is different than the way potassium bromate does it.

I can see the challenge of finding a flour in Canada that performs like a bromated flour, especially since bromated flours are outlawed in Canada.

Peter

[fazzari]

John,

I was getting ready to ask you what conclusions your drew from your experiments on the bromated vs. ascorbic acid doughs when I saw your recent post on your conclusions.

I was doing some research on the General Mills high-gluten flours and, interestingly, it looks like the only high-gluten flour they offer that has the ascorbic acid is the King Kaiser, at 45-55 ppm (http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/king-kaiser-flour-bleached-ascorbic-acid-enriched-malted-50-lb/54472000?mct=Flour&ct=high-gluten&typ=Type). As best I can tell, the only All Trumps flour that GM offers that has the same specs as the King Kaiser flour, but for the use of the bromate, is the version at http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/all-trumps-flour-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/50121000?mct=Flour&ct=general-mills-all-trumps&typ=Brand. That version comes in a 50-pound bag. Is that the version you used for your experiments? I ask this question because that version is not bleached. GM sells a bleached and bromated All Trumps flour but only in 25- and 100-pound bags, and the specs for those flours are slightly different than the specs for the unbleached bromated All Trumps (see, for example, the specs for the 25-pound bag bleached/bromated All Trumps at http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/all-trumps-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-25-lb/50115000?mct=Flour&ct=general-mills-all-trumps&typ=Brand).

Some time ago, when I was trying to clone the Papa John's dough, I saw from the ingredients list I was able to get for their dough that they used ascorbic acid. I suspected that PJ might have been using something along the lines of a high-gluten flour or maybe a bread flour so I used 45-55 ppm of ascorbic acid, which is the amount that GM typically uses when adding ascorbic acid to its high-gluten and bread flours. I don't recall how I converted 45-55 ppm to a volume measurement, but for my amount of dough it was between a "smidgen" and a "pinch" mini measuring spoon. I was hoping to learn something from that experiment, but I could not detect any difference from using the ascorbic acid.

As an aside, I see that GM apparently no longer uses ascorbic acid for its Harvest King flour. My recollection is that at one time they used it for both the retail and professional versions of that flour.

Peter

Peter
When I asked my bakery flour supplier about the possibility of getting an All Trumps Bromated bag to try, she referred me to General Mills.  It was there that I was told that the bromated ones go to the East Coast, but that I should try the King Kaiser blend, because it was the same flour as the All Trumps but has the ascorbic acid added.  So, I went ahead and bought 5 bags to play around with.  At the same time, I went online to find a way to have a bromated All Trumps shipped to me...as per recommendations from Scott, Pennmac was were I went.  Here is their flour page...you can see they offer 50 pound All Trumps bromated, bleached product.    http://www.pennmac.com/search?search=flour
Now, having said that I can't honestly tell you the bag I got was bleached....at the time I was not as informed as I should have been about bleached flour since that is what I have used for years and never thought a second time about it.  Since then, I've done more reading and see that even the bleaching process is controversial in some circles.  If I would have known that at the time, I would have made sure and documented everything....but I know now.

As for your Papa John's experiments using ascorbic acid, let me just leave you one thought....I think that if you are expecting to see a noticeable difference in say a dough ball which sits 24 hours, you probably won't notice much.  It's as the doughball ages that you most likely will see a difference in doughs (one with ascorbic acid, the other one without).....in this instance, I'm assuming that the doughball is left untouched from the time of original balling until bake time.  Maybe Papa Johns is using ascorbic acid as insurance in case their doughs age a little longer than they want, or maybe that particular flour just happens to work for them and it happens to have ascorbic acid.  And maybe what I experienced was just a one time thing....don't know!!   I'd sure love to hear from others what they might have experienced.  Thanks for your help Peter.

John

[Pete-zza]

John,

I stand corrected on the GM bleached and bromated All Trumps flour. I took the code off of the All Trumps bag shown in the photo at PennMac and went back to the GM website. Here are the specs for the bleached, bromated All Trumps flour: http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/all-trumps-enriched-flour-50-lb/50111000?mct=Flour&ct=general-mills-all-trumps&typ=Brand. It comes in a 50-pound bag. What threw me off was the abbreviated title given at the GM website at http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/flour/brand/general-mills-all-trumps that did not say bleached or bromated.

On the matter of the Papa John's clone dough, I used the ascorbic acid in a two-day version of that dough. That is not a version that PJs uses. Their normal fermentation period is around 5-8 days. I did not use the ascorbic acid for that version. Thanks for your opinion on this. I had not associated ascorbic acid with a long fermentation window.

Peter

[Chicago Bob]

John,
I enjoy watching your experiments and it is no secret that you have continual positive results with extended fermentation time windows.
What is your genuine opinion(as far as taste) between a same day, 24hr., and 48hr. dough, concerning the type you work with...thank you.

Bob

[fazzari]

Such great experimenting, thanks John! The way you report/keep track of your findings, as always, is most impressive and beneficial....it is much appreciated.   
Please, what is your "usual" flour used there at the shop for the crackers?

Thanks Bob

Here's an interesting story from real life.  When I started in the business we used nothing but Mondako flour.  It was mandatory, at the time I was part of a franchise and we all used Mondako.  After I got out of the franchise, I started experimenting, and ended up using an ADM high gluten flour for years and years.  I can't remember exactly which ADM product it was because it was under the Food Services of America label.  But I do know that it was bleached and had ascorbic acid.  Well, last winter we went through a hell of a time with our flour, and we just couldn't get it to work...ADM was having a hard time bringing in the new crop of flour.  After a couple discussions with Scott, we tried changing hydration rates, we tried adding diastatic malt...we tried it all.  So, we switched to All Trumps, the unbleached stuff, and it has been amazing so far...we'll see what happens this winter.  With the low hydration rate of our dough, we see changes in flour very quickly.  The question I have about flour now that I have experimented a little bit more is this:  does the bleaching process and the addition of conditioners make a flour more consistent....it sure didn't work for ADM last year...how about with General Mills??

John

[scott r]

I have been using all trumps, full strength, and harvest king for years.    All trumps and full strength always seem to be the same (and are bromated/conditioned), where harvest king seems to change (not bromated/conditioned)

[Chicago Bob]

Thanks Bob

Here's an interesting story from real life.  When I started in the business we used nothing but Mondako flour.  It was mandatory, at the time I was part of a franchise and we all used Mondako.  After I got out of the franchise, I started experimenting, and ended up using an ADM high gluten flour for years and years.  I can't remember exactly which ADM product it was because it was under the Food Services of America label.  But I do know that it was bleached and had ascorbic acid.  Well, last winter we went through a hell of a time with our flour, and we just couldn't get it to work...ADM was having a hard time bringing in the new crop of flour.  After a couple discussions with Scott, we tried changing hydration rates, we tried adding diastatic malt...we tried it all.  So, we switched to All Trumps, the unbleached stuff, and it has been amazing so far...we'll see what happens this winter.  With the low hydration rate of our dough, we see changes in flour very quickly.  The question I have about flour now that I have experimented a little bit more is this:  does the bleaching process and the addition of conditioners make a flour more consistent....it sure didn't work for ADM last year...how about with General Mills??

John

Thanks John,
Oh yes ..I remember your tribulations last year at your shop. Adjustments daily were trying to give you the blues.
I believe your final question posed above will be well worth your efforts....if able to confirm a solid result.
Thanks again..keep at it(I know you will )

[fazzari]

John,
I enjoy watching your experiments and it is no secret that you have continual positive results with extended fermentation time windows.
What is your genuine opinion(as far as taste) between a same day, 24hr., and 48hr. dough, concerning the type you work with...thank you.

Bob

Bob
In regards to our laminated cracker dough (remember that we sheet our dough approximately 90 minutes after it is mixed and then refrigerate the formed skins until they are used).  You simply can't use a same day dough using this process, you get crap!  If a skin sits at least 24 hours, and all the stars line up right, you can have an excellent skin.  An excellent skin bakes in 5 to 6 minutes (550 degrees apprx), has good oven spring, is golden brown and this all happens because there is a tremendous transfer of heat from the brick through the top of the pizza.  Steam rolls off the top on  a perfect skin.  And using Mike's (Esson) description of the texture, it has an eggshell bottom, which yields easily to the tooth, and then has a soft middle.  You can get these skins after 24 hours and they can last up to 72 hours...but it is all variable to the conditions you are in at the time.

In regards to the New York type pizzas, you get to taste the dough more and it is no surprise that time is a great builder of flavor.  When I make these for my personal use...I always use prefermented flour (poolish), so I can enjoy the flavors a little sooner.  I start making pizza after they've sat at least 24 hours in the fridge.  For my taste, the texture matters just as much as the flavor and in fact I think the texture enhances the flavor...don't know why I believe that, but I do.  That is why reballing dough is so exciting to me.....as the flavor of the dough increases as it ages, I can still get the texture I want by timing my reballings right.  Most the best doughs I've eaten were 5 to 6 days old, but I've also experienced excellent 1 to 2 day doughs....and as for the texture I love, these also have an eggshell bottom which yields to a cloudlike texture above it.

Anyway Bob, that's how I like my pizza.

John

[fazzari]

I have been using all trumps, full strength, and harvest king for years.    All trumps and full strength always seem to be the same (and are bromated/conditioned), where harvest king seems to change (not bromated/conditioned)

Thanks Scott
That's the kind of thing I need to know and experience.  We're using about 23 to 25 bags of flour a week, and you can imagine the work it takes to run ovens when you're flour is inconsistent.

John

[Chicago Bob]

Anyway Bob, that's how I like my pizza.

John

Me three John! 
Esson's description is spot on and the best pie I've lucked upon in my oven was from one of your recipes/formulas about a year ago. This is the cause for my current questions of you because I am finally, really paying attention and taking most important notes/filing. Hope you don't feel I'm being a pest, John, I appreciate that you are a busy man...and likewise, appreciate your time/contributions here on our 'lil forum.
You are a good pizza person....

Bob

[norma427]

John,

You pies look terrific.  I have enjoyed watching your experiments.  So do you think the better tastes in the crust and better pizzas are really from reballs and not the ascorbic acid?

I also did a few experiments with ascorbic acid and other ingredients.  I never really had any conclusions because I didn’t continue with those experiments, but they were fun.  This is one link to the thread that I was playing around with ascorbic acid, ginger and other homemade dough conditioners at Reply 157 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg138709.html#msg138709   You can see Peter’s post next after mine.

Norma

[fazzari]

Me three John! 
Esson's description is spot on and the best pie I've lucked upon in my oven was from one of your recipes/formulas about a year ago. This is the cause for my current questions of you because I am finally, really paying attention and taking most important notes/filing. Hope you don't feel I'm being a pest, John, I appreciate that you are a busy man...and likewise, appreciate your time/contributions here on our 'lil forum.
You are a good pizza person....

Bob

Whenever I have the time I'm happy to discuss anything you would like....I'm sorry I don't get to read alot more on this forum....I try to stick with the stuff that interests me the most because of time!!

John

[fazzari]

John,

You pies look terrific.  I have enjoyed watching your experiments.  So do you think the better tastes in the crust and better pizzas are really from reballs and not the ascorbic acid?

I also did a few experiments with ascorbic acid and other ingredients.  I never really had any conclusions because I didn’t continue with those experiments, but they were fun.  This is one link to the thread that I was playing around with ascorbic acid, ginger and other homemade dough conditioners at Reply 157 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg138709.html#msg138709   You can see Peter’s post next after mine.

Norma

Norma
If one was going to try a "real" experiment...he would pick one bag of flour, take samples from it, and add potassium bromate to some, ascorbic acid to some and leave some plain....Now THAT would be the way to experiment.  Since I don't have a way to do this, I tried the next best thing...I used all GM flours, All Trumps and King Kaiser.  So, that's why I say, it's purely anecdotal......I can only report what I observed and tasted in this very small sample of pizzas I made.   And not only was my sample small, I only used moderately hot ovens (550 degrees).  Would my experiments change with a lot hotter oven....I just don't know!!  But, from what I observed....the bromated flour and ascorbic acid flour were almost identical...they were much stronger than the flour with no conditioners...that is I worked harder to open up those doughs.  For a 24 hour dough, the difference wasn't huge....the difference really shows up as the dough ages.  But I was able to reball the weaker doughs to make them as strong as the conditioned doughs and this eliminated the advantage of having conditioned flours.  I couldn't detect taste differences at all...only texture differences.  That is why I mentioned to Peter that maybe Papa jOhns uses the ascorbic acid doughs as an insurance in the aging of their doughs
You know me though Norma....I'm a texture guy, and all doughs come to a point where they need help...and for me, that's the reball.  Anyway, another fun round of experiments.
Be well!!
john

[norma427]

Norma
If one was going to try a "real" experiment...he would pick one bag of flour, take samples from it, and add potassium bromate to some, ascorbic acid to some and leave some plain....Now THAT would be the way to experiment.  Since I don't have a way to do this, I tried the next best thing...I used all GM flours, All Trumps and King Kaiser.  So, that's why I say, it's purely anecdotal......I can only report what I observed and tasted in this very small sample of pizzas I made.   And not only was my sample small, I only used moderately hot ovens (550 degrees).  Would my experiments change with a lot hotter oven....I just don't know!!  But, from what I observed....the bromated flour and ascorbic acid flour were almost identical...they were much stronger than the flour with no conditioners...that is I worked harder to open up those doughs.  For a 24 hour dough, the difference wasn't huge....the difference really shows up as the dough ages.  But I was able to reball the weaker doughs to make them as strong as the conditioned doughs and this eliminated the advantage of having conditioned flours.  I couldn't detect taste differences at all...only texture differences.  That is why I mentioned to Peter that maybe Papa jOhns uses the ascorbic acid doughs as an insurance in the aging of their doughs
You know me though Norma....I'm a texture guy, and all doughs come to a point where they need help...and for me, that's the reball.  Anyway, another fun round of experiments.
Be well!!
john

John,

I think all of your experiments are great and I always learn something from them.  Thanks for explaining that for a 24 hr. dough that differences were not that huge.  I find it was interesting that you were able to reball the weaker dough to make them as strong as the conditioned doughs. 

I agree you did another run of good experiments!

Be well too!

Norma