Author Topic: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps  (Read 9679 times)

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Offline fazzari

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Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2012, 11:45:23 PM »
John,
I enjoy watching your experiments and it is no secret that you have continual positive results with extended fermentation time windows.
What is your genuine opinion(as far as taste) between a same day, 24hr., and 48hr. dough, concerning the type you work with...thank you.

Bob

Bob
In regards to our laminated cracker dough (remember that we sheet our dough approximately 90 minutes after it is mixed and then refrigerate the formed skins until they are used).  You simply can't use a same day dough using this process, you get crap!  If a skin sits at least 24 hours, and all the stars line up right, you can have an excellent skin.  An excellent skin bakes in 5 to 6 minutes (550 degrees apprx), has good oven spring, is golden brown and this all happens because there is a tremendous transfer of heat from the brick through the top of the pizza.  Steam rolls off the top on  a perfect skin.  And using Mike's (Esson) description of the texture, it has an eggshell bottom, which yields easily to the tooth, and then has a soft middle.  You can get these skins after 24 hours and they can last up to 72 hours...but it is all variable to the conditions you are in at the time.

In regards to the New York type pizzas, you get to taste the dough more and it is no surprise that time is a great builder of flavor.  When I make these for my personal use...I always use prefermented flour (poolish), so I can enjoy the flavors a little sooner.  I start making pizza after they've sat at least 24 hours in the fridge.  For my taste, the texture matters just as much as the flavor and in fact I think the texture enhances the flavor...don't know why I believe that, but I do.  That is why reballing dough is so exciting to me.....as the flavor of the dough increases as it ages, I can still get the texture I want by timing my reballings right.  Most the best doughs I've eaten were 5 to 6 days old, but I've also experienced excellent 1 to 2 day doughs....and as for the texture I love, these also have an eggshell bottom which yields to a cloudlike texture above it.

Anyway Bob, that's how I like my pizza.

John


Offline fazzari

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Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2012, 11:50:12 PM »
I have been using all trumps, full strength, and harvest king for years.    All trumps and full strength always seem to be the same (and are bromated/conditioned), where harvest king seems to change (not bromated/conditioned)

Thanks Scott
That's the kind of thing I need to know and experience.  We're using about 23 to 25 bags of flour a week, and you can imagine the work it takes to run ovens when you're flour is inconsistent.

John

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #52 on: November 13, 2012, 12:03:38 AM »


Anyway Bob, that's how I like my pizza.

John
Me three John!  ;D
Esson's description is spot on and the best pie I've lucked upon in my oven was from one of your recipes/formulas about a year ago. This is the cause for my current questions of you because I am finally, really paying attention and taking most important notes/filing. Hope you don't feel I'm being a pest, John, I appreciate that you are a busy man...and likewise, appreciate your time/contributions here on our 'lil forum.
You are a good pizza person.... :chef:

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline norma427

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Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #53 on: November 13, 2012, 06:53:57 AM »
John,

You pies look terrific.  :pizza: I have enjoyed watching your experiments.  So do you think the better tastes in the crust and better pizzas are really from reballs and not the ascorbic acid?

I also did a few experiments with ascorbic acid and other ingredients.  I never really had any conclusions because I didnít continue with those experiments, but they were fun.  This is one link to the thread that I was playing around with ascorbic acid, ginger and other homemade dough conditioners at Reply 157 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg138709.html#msg138709   You can see Peterís post next after mine.

Norma

Offline fazzari

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Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #54 on: November 13, 2012, 10:12:42 PM »
Me three John!  ;D
Esson's description is spot on and the best pie I've lucked upon in my oven was from one of your recipes/formulas about a year ago. This is the cause for my current questions of you because I am finally, really paying attention and taking most important notes/filing. Hope you don't feel I'm being a pest, John, I appreciate that you are a busy man...and likewise, appreciate your time/contributions here on our 'lil forum.
You are a good pizza person.... :chef:

Bob
Whenever I have the time I'm happy to discuss anything you would like....I'm sorry I don't get to read alot more on this forum....I try to stick with the stuff that interests me the most because of time!!

John

Offline fazzari

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Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #55 on: November 13, 2012, 10:28:37 PM »
John,

You pies look terrific.  :pizza: I have enjoyed watching your experiments.  So do you think the better tastes in the crust and better pizzas are really from reballs and not the ascorbic acid?

I also did a few experiments with ascorbic acid and other ingredients.  I never really had any conclusions because I didnít continue with those experiments, but they were fun.  This is one link to the thread that I was playing around with ascorbic acid, ginger and other homemade dough conditioners at Reply 157 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg138709.html#msg138709   You can see Peterís post next after mine.

Norma

Norma
If one was going to try a "real" experiment...he would pick one bag of flour, take samples from it, and add potassium bromate to some, ascorbic acid to some and leave some plain....Now THAT would be the way to experiment.  Since I don't have a way to do this, I tried the next best thing...I used all GM flours, All Trumps and King Kaiser.  So, that's why I say, it's purely anecdotal......I can only report what I observed and tasted in this very small sample of pizzas I made.   And not only was my sample small, I only used moderately hot ovens (550 degrees).  Would my experiments change with a lot hotter oven....I just don't know!!  But, from what I observed....the bromated flour and ascorbic acid flour were almost identical...they were much stronger than the flour with no conditioners...that is I worked harder to open up those doughs.  For a 24 hour dough, the difference wasn't huge....the difference really shows up as the dough ages.  But I was able to reball the weaker doughs to make them as strong as the conditioned doughs and this eliminated the advantage of having conditioned flours.  I couldn't detect taste differences at all...only texture differences.  That is why I mentioned to Peter that maybe Papa jOhns uses the ascorbic acid doughs as an insurance in the aging of their doughs
You know me though Norma....I'm a texture guy, and all doughs come to a point where they need help...and for me, that's the reball.  Anyway, another fun round of experiments.
Be well!!
john

Offline norma427

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Re: bleached and bromated versus unbleached All Trumps
« Reply #56 on: November 13, 2012, 10:39:46 PM »
Norma
If one was going to try a "real" experiment...he would pick one bag of flour, take samples from it, and add potassium bromate to some, ascorbic acid to some and leave some plain....Now THAT would be the way to experiment.  Since I don't have a way to do this, I tried the next best thing...I used all GM flours, All Trumps and King Kaiser.  So, that's why I say, it's purely anecdotal......I can only report what I observed and tasted in this very small sample of pizzas I made.   And not only was my sample small, I only used moderately hot ovens (550 degrees).  Would my experiments change with a lot hotter oven....I just don't know!!  But, from what I observed....the bromated flour and ascorbic acid flour were almost identical...they were much stronger than the flour with no conditioners...that is I worked harder to open up those doughs.  For a 24 hour dough, the difference wasn't huge....the difference really shows up as the dough ages.  But I was able to reball the weaker doughs to make them as strong as the conditioned doughs and this eliminated the advantage of having conditioned flours.  I couldn't detect taste differences at all...only texture differences.  That is why I mentioned to Peter that maybe Papa jOhns uses the ascorbic acid doughs as an insurance in the aging of their doughs
You know me though Norma....I'm a texture guy, and all doughs come to a point where they need help...and for me, that's the reball.  Anyway, another fun round of experiments.
Be well!!
john

John,

I think all of your experiments are great and I always learn something from them.  Thanks for explaining that for a 24 hr. dough that differences were not that huge.  I find it was interesting that you were able to reball the weaker dough to make them as strong as the conditioned doughs. 

I agree you did another run of good experiments!

Be well too!

Norma


 

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