Looking for Guidance - NY Style

[Triglet]

Hello all!

Great forum here, way too much information for my simple mind however - was hoping to get some suggestions on what I should be aiming for with my equipment.  Seems like most of you that provide help encourage information download, so here goes...

My Equipment
Frigidaire ES300 Gas Range, 550 F Max, Top Broil (pretty sure the broiler shuts off at max temp)
1/2" Steel Plate (14" x 20")
KitchenAid Stand Mixer
Digital Scale
IR Gun
Wooden Peel - thinking of buying a metal one?

Methods tried so Far
Alton Brown's Food Network Recipe (Thick, Bready one)
Reinhart's NY Style recipe out of American Pie
Grilled Pizza (AB & Reinhart thin crust dough)

Allright, so I've made the above with varying amounts of success - sometimes they come out great and other times not so much.  Sometimes I have an idea why, and others I have no clue. Time to step my game up and improve consistency - I've seen some comments on Reinhart's recipes and figured I should start trying some of the more standard NY recipes like those stickied in the NY forum.  That and I need to get used to the baker's percentages as I really couldn't tell you what I'm doing right now. 

Anyhoo, I figured someone would have a suggestion based on my equipment I have and what I've done - the following is what I produced Friday night as well as this morning with some explanation of what I did and saw.

Wednesday - Mixed up Reinhart's NY Style dough from American Pie, three 12 oz balls per the recipe (KABF).  Balled, lightly oiled, and put in plastic bags and into the fridge (37 F). Noticed little expansion over the next few days, but there were some air bubbles evident when looking at the bottom of the bag.

Friday - Took two balls out and let sit at room temp for an hour and a half, couple of big air bubbles formed on the surface but not really a dough wide leavening.  Steel pre-heated for about an hour.  Made one pep & cheese and one margherita -- not a lot of oven spring, but I really don't know what it should have been.  I simply took the dough out of the bags and stretched it out with no re-ball, dough was extremely elastic -- almost too much?.  Really sticky, almost had a fail on the first one as my hand got caught in it.  Finally got it shaped and built, and tried to launch and it was stuck on the board because of the lack of flour :/ (I was not happy at the time, although I bet some day I'll laugh at my noobness).  Finally got it launched with out having to throw it out.  My steel surface temp was around 575, 7 inches or so away from the gas broiler.  When I launch I immediately switch to broiler and leave it on the entire time (oven is off during this time).  Turned out ok considering it got stuck. 5 min cook time.

Pizza #1 (2 Day's in the fridge, no re-ball)

Second pizza went better, same method - 5 min cook time.

Pizza #2 (2 Day's in the fridge, no re-ball)

Now, the following was a breakfast pizza made today.  I re-balled the dough just see if it made a difference (15 mins or so rest), and it was noticeable.  Actually had to work to stretch it out like I'm used too. This was definitely more bready/chewey, and I don't think I quite got it spread out enough compared to what a standard NY does. Same method as before, 4 minutes 45 seconds on this one.  Took more pic's as well.

Breakfast Pizza #1 (4 Day's in the fridge, re-ball)
Breakfast Pizza #2 (4 Day's in the fridge, re-ball)
Breakfast Pizza #3 (4 Day's in the fridge, re-ball)
Breakfast Pizza #4 (4 Day's in the fridge, re-ball)

So, what would you suggest I try next that fits more into the standard NY style?  I believe there's a bulk food distributor where I can get KASL if needed, I'm going to call on Monday.

Thanks in advance for any help -- really appreciate it, let me know if I've left something important out.

Chad

[AimlessRyan]

Methods tried so Far
Alton Brown's Food Network Recipe (Thick, Bready one)

Is that the one that calls for like 2 Tbsp of sugar?

That's not pizza dough. Alton Brown knows nothing about pizza. Celebrity chefs know nothing about pizza. Forget they exist.

[dellavecchia]

Welcome to the Forum Chad. Your pizza looks great, so I think you only need some minor tweaks to the recipe and workflow. One suggestion would be to make either a larger pie with your present dough ball size, or cut the size down to get a thinner pie. If you are after a NY style, they are thinner than what you have posted. If you are using the site's dough calculator, shoot for a thickness factor of .09.

Second, you did not describe you mixing regimen. That would help in determining why your dough was slack.

Third - you should allow your dough to ferment at room temp for an hour or so before you put it in the fridge. I have not seen the Reinhart dough formula, but it is good practice to give the yeast a good head start before retarding at low temperatures (in my opinion).

John

[Pete-zza]

If you are using the site's dough calculator, shoot for a thickness factor of .9

I'm sure John means 0.09.

Peter

[Triglet]

Is that the one that calls for like 2 Tbsp of sugar?

That's not pizza dough. Alton Brown knows nothing about pizza. Celebrity chefs know nothing about pizza. Forget they exist.

Haha, that's pretty funny - to his credit, he's the reason I even got into cooking.  Never really thought about it until now but I don't use any of his recipes/methods anymore.

Welcome to the Forum Chad. Your pizza looks great, so I think you only need some minor tweaks to the recipe and workflow. One suggestion would be to make either a larger pie with your present dough ball size, or cut the size down to get a thinner pie. If you are after a NY style, they are thinner than what you have posted. If you are using the site's dough calculator, shoot for a thickness factor of .9.

Second, you did not describe you mixing regimen. That would help in determining why your dough was slack.

Third - you should allow your dough to ferment at room temp for an hour or so before you put it in the fridge. I have not seen the Reinhart dough formula, but it is good practice to give the yeast a good head start before retarding at low temperatures (in my opinion).

John

Thanks John - as far as mixing I just threw everything into the mixing bowl and used the paddle attachment for 1-2 minutes until it comes together, then switch to the hook until the dough comes off the bottom of the mixing bowl as Reinhart instructs.  I try to achieve windowpane but it's been a secondary thing to this point as I never seem to achieve what some of the pictures show so I just move on.

Great info on the pre-fridge ferment, I always thought 15 mins was rather brief.


Thanks to both of you!

[Pete-zza]

I try to achieve windowpane but it's been a secondary thing to this point as I never seem to achieve what some of the pictures show so I just move on.

Chad,

I wouldn't worry about the windowpane test. The method that is recommended these days for pizza dough is discussed in the last paragraph of Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3204.msg27134.html#msg27134. From what I can tell, even Peter Reinhart has stopped talking about the windowpane test in his most recent writings.

Peter

[AimlessRyan]

I try to achieve windowpane but it's been a secondary thing to this point as I never seem to achieve what some of the pictures show so I just move on.

I have never found any reason to even try windowpaning, and I really don't think it is at all useful with pizza dough, except maybe to let you know you should have stopped mixing 5 or 10 minutes ago. I mix most of my doughs for 3 minutes or less. That includes my NY style dough (3 minutes max), which I usually refrigerate for two days. However, if I was going to make a same-day NY dough, I'd mix for longer, but probably still not long enough to windowpane.

The only kind of dough I mix for longer than 3 minutes is my Pizza Hut Thin clone, which I mix for about 12 minutes. I mix my laminated cracker-esque dough (54-56% hydration) for maybe 3 minutes. I usually mix deep dish dough with a spoon; no kneading. (And I've been making some amazing deep dish pizzas lately.)

I have found "undermixing" very preferable to any other degree of mixing.

[Pete-zza]

Tom Lehmann recommends that one rehydrate IDY if the total mix time is less than four minutes: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7527&p=51038&hilit=#p51038. Likewise if the dough is hand kneaded (Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21449.msg216597/topicseen.html#msg216597).

Peter

[scott123]

You should have a metal peel for retrieving.

[dellavecchia]

I'm sure John means 0.09.

Peter

Thank you for catching that Peter.

John

[The Dough Doctor]

Ryan;
Your observations are the same as ours here at AIB. When it comes to making pizza, less mixing is almost always better than more mixing. Actually, if you open the dough up and "window pane" it after two days in the cooler you will be able to see first hand what biochemical gluten development is all about. Our annual pizza seminar begins today and that is one of the things that we show our students. Under mixing the dough promotes a more open crumb structure, less snap back, and is a lot easier on your mixer, or arms to boot.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

[Don K]

It always amazes me when I read that someone kneads for 5, or 8, or sometimes as much as 12 minutes with high-gluten flour. It seems to me that the resulting dough will snap back like a rubber band.

I always only mix barely enough to incorporate flour. This is also one of the reasons that I usually choose to mix by hand. It just seems like the mixer has beaten the dough to death by the time all of the flour is incorporated. When you mix by hand, it's easy to feel when it's time to stop mixing.

The first time I used AT bromated, I was amazed at how quickly the gluten developed. You could feel the change in the dough almost instantly as you were mixing. So I don't see why you really need to knead much at all, especially if you are cold fermenting, as you get plenty of biochemical gluten development, as the good doctor says.

[AimlessRyan]

You should have a metal peel for retrieving.

Didn't that post say something completely different about an hour ago?

[scott123]

Didn't that post say something completely different about an hour ago?

I woke up feeling differently and decided to modify it.

[Triglet]

Thanks for all the replies,  I already see a few things I  need to change up.  Going to pick up a metal peel and then try one of the Lehman style doughs in that other thread.

I'll see how that goes and get back to everyone in the NY style sub forum.

Thanks again,
Chad