Author Topic: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution  (Read 6148 times)

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Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« on: October 22, 2012, 06:02:56 PM »
Has anyone tried Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution, I am thinking of doing this on my MPO top stone to increase radiated heat.
Bert


Offline Bugsforbob

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2012, 12:31:14 AM »
Where did his idea come from? Is there scientific reasoning as to how this would work? Wouldn't the sugar just burn off? I' m not a scientist, but I am a bit skeptical. Enlighten me.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2012, 09:06:48 AM »
Where did his idea come from? Is there scientific reasoning as to how this would work? Wouldn't the sugar just burn off? I' m not a scientist, but I am a bit skeptical. Enlighten me.

After the sugar burns off, it would leave carbon behind darkening the surface thus increasing the emissivity. I tend to doubt the difference would be meaningful, but I'm curious to know so I hope Bert tries it.
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2012, 09:29:31 AM »
This method was described by member November at Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5122.msg46827.html#msg46827 but with respect to the bottom of a stone. An alternative method is discussed at Reply 59 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7066.msg169215.html#msg169215.

Peter

Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2012, 11:16:37 AM »
Dark surfaces has higher emissititvity.

In preparation for using the cordierite shelf for baking a pizza on tomorrow, I carbonized the bottom by mopping it with sugar-water and heating it in the oven at 600F for about an hour.  This is to darken it for more rapid radiant heat absorption.  I will likely sugar-heat treat it a few more times before all is said and done.  I will only treat the shelf this way on the bottom, as I want the top to remain as reflective as possible to benefit the rim of the crust not in direct contact with the shelf.  Attached is an image of the contrast resulting from the first treatment.

- red.november

November did it for more rapid radiant heat absorption. In my case, I am wondering if it will increase stone radiated heat. I will try it and see if it makes any difference. I may not be able to do it till next weekend.

Any recommendation on how to test? I can heat two stones,  one is sugar coated ( ;)) ... the simplest way is to feel the heat by placing my hand couple inches away from the stones. If I can't feel the difference, than there is no significant difference.
Bert

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2012, 11:22:42 AM »
Any recommendation on how to test? I can heat two stones,  one is sugar coated ( ;)) ... the simplest way is to feel the heat by placing my hand couple inches away from the stones. If I can't feel the difference, than there is no significant difference.

That or just do a practical test and see if you notice any difference. You've baked enough pies in the MPO to know what to expect. If the difference is meaningful, you will see it.
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Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2012, 11:45:38 AM »
I will be out of town this weekend. I may be able to do the feel test sooner than a bake test.
Bert

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2012, 12:43:49 PM »
I will be out of town this weekend. I may be able to do the feel test sooner than a bake test.

I'd be curious to see if an IR thermometer registers a dark stone differently than a light stone at the same temperature.
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Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2012, 01:25:54 PM »
I'd be curious to see if an IR thermometer registers a dark stone differently than a light stone at the same temperature.

It does, I noticed it when I measure stained spot vs clean area right next to the stained spot.
Bert


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2012, 01:30:37 PM »
It does, I noticed it when I measure stained spot vs clean area right next to the stained spot.


Dark was hotter?
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Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2012, 02:24:59 PM »
Dark was hotter?

Yes, don't remember the difference. The true temperature is the clean area temperature. see http://www.reliableplant.com/Read/14134/emissivity-underst-difference-between-apparent,-actual-ir-temps

http://www.thermoworks.com/emissivity_table.html (carbon has .95 emissivity)
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 03:17:53 PM by MightyPizzaOven »
Bert

scott123

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2012, 03:38:45 PM »
Anything that burns on and darkens a stone, be it sugar water or seasoning, will improve emissivity.  But... a decent grill setup, with good airflow across the top stone, should reach 650 easily, and I don't see much surviving 650 for too long.

Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2012, 05:24:13 PM »
and I don't see much surviving 650 for too long.
Scott, do you mean the sugar will eventually burn off at that temperature or at that temperature the emissivity will be high anyway?
Bert

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2012, 05:27:55 PM »
Bert, I expect the sugar to burn off at that temp.

Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2012, 05:40:46 PM »
Scott, I was thinking to coat one side of the stone with the sugar solution  while baking it at low temperature on the grill. Sugar made mostly of C, H and O, I am expecting majority of the C will be trapped. The other option is to coat the stone with high emissivity coating. Sugar solution is much much cheaper (if it works)
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 05:47:12 PM by MightyPizzaOven »
Bert

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2012, 09:48:55 AM »
Bert, I expect the sugar to burn off at that temp.

Yeah, I've found that temperatures around 600 (in the grill) easily turn well-seasoned pans into shiny, like-new pans. So if seasoning vaporizes at 600, I'd totally expect sugar to vaporize, too.
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline pizzaneer

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2012, 09:57:40 AM »
Yeah, I've found that temperatures around 600 (in the grill) easily turn well-seasoned pans into shiny, like-new pans. So if seasoning vaporizes at 600, I'd totally expect sugar to vaporize, too.

Thats interesting.  Well-seasoned what? Aluminum? Steel? Seasoned with oil, lard, general drippage?

I use my cast iron skillets and pans in the LBE for various things, usually running around 750 - never noticed the seasoning burning off.  If anything, it's made them darker.
I'd rather eat one good meal a day than 3 squares of garbage.


Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2012, 10:53:09 AM »
It is worth trying, unfortunately, I won't be able to do it this week.


Ryan, by the way I am hooked on my scale. I used mostly to measure my flour and dough. My dough ball sizes became more consistent.
Bert

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2012, 11:01:19 AM »
Thats interesting.  Well-seasoned what? Aluminum? Steel? Seasoned with oil, lard, general drippage?

I use my cast iron skillets and pans in the LBE for various things, usually running around 750 - never noticed the seasoning burning off.  If anything, it's made them darker.

Aluminum. And if cutter pans are aluminum (which I think they are), then more aluminum. Seasoned with canola oil, as far as I remember.

Since I don't use cast iron for anything, which means I know essentially nothing about cast iron, I have a question: How can you tell that the seasoning never burns off? I mean, it's black either way, right? And since cast iron is black when it's new, what is the purpose of seasoning it? (These are legitimate questions. I've been curious about this stuff for a long time, but I don't trust the rest of the internet to give me valid answers.)

Also, and this may be the difference-maker: I've never actually been baking anything at 600(ish) when I've vaporized the seasoning on my pans. Rather, the first time it ever happened, I think I was actually trying to season a perforated aluminum pan. I had the burners on high, just to get the grill up to temperature quickly, but I got distracted and accidentally left the burners on high for a while. (Half an hour or an hour; I'm not sure. Like I said, I was distracted, which means I forgot all about it.)

So it's not like I was using the pans how pans would normally be used.

When you use cast iron in your LBE, the pan surely has something in it (like food), which means it should take considerably (or infinitely) longer for the pan to reach the temperatures my empty pans reached when I vaporized the seasoning. But, of course, you probably finish using the pan long before the pan ever has any chance of reaching those kinds of temperatures.

I'm making sense, right?

Even though my first experience with vaporizing the seasoning off of a pan was an accident, I've actually done it on purpose a few times since then; mostly to bring pans back to like-new condition so I could re-season them correctly after Peter helped me better understand why we even bother seasoning pizza pans. (But I think I probably did it by accident at least one other time.)
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2012, 11:04:19 AM »
Ryan, by the way I am hooked on my scale. I used mostly to measure my flour and dough. My dough ball sizes became more consistent.

Awesome! I was actually thinking about asking you earlier today if you were using it, since I think you had indicated that you already had one a couple months ago when I was nagging you about bakers' percents.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2012, 11:13:08 AM »
I never took it as nagging, it just couldn't visualize the benefit. But, I see the light now.
Bert

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2012, 11:16:45 AM »
What Bert is discussing is not a "seasoning" process as we would discuss for metal - a coating of polymerized fat and oil on the surface. Rather the process he is discussing is essentially leaving a layer of charcoal on the surface of the stone. The charcoal will begin to burn off with temperatures as low as 660F.
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Offline pizzaneer

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2012, 11:39:28 AM »
Good clarification and follow-up questions, Ryan.

I use cast iron because of its heat absorption and emission characteristics.  A properly seasoned 100 year old cast iron pan is superior IMO to almost anything on the market on these days.  Its heavy weight and thermal mass make precision cooking easier, while its high transfer rate allow you to do things other pans can't do.  Like sear a steak and bake a cake.  Roast a chicken, deep-fry some shrimp, make stuffed peppers on the grill - even deep dish pizza.  I saved that one for last, because once you try a cast-iron deepdish pizza, you'll toss your lightweight pans.

   As for what unseasoned cast iron looks like, just find something rusty and look at it.  If you use your cast iron every day, it will be midnight black and perfect, and stay that way.  
   You treasure cookware like this, and try to pass it on to someone who will use it well.  That's why I have a bunch of them - they are all inherited from past cooks in the family.  You sure can't say that about any of the crap on the market these days.

BTW, when I cook steak in the LBE, I preheat the skillet to 800-850 degrees.  
I'd rather eat one good meal a day than 3 squares of garbage.

Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2012, 11:43:44 AM »
My goal is to create a uniform radiant heat across the surface and increase radiant heat. There is a commercial coating that do this, I will try that option too. I am not sure if it will make a noticible difference.
Bert

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2012, 11:56:53 AM »
What Bert is discussing is not a "seasoning" process as we would discuss for metal - a coating of polymerized fat and oil on the surface. Rather the process he is discussing is essentially leaving a layer of charcoal on the surface of the stone. The charcoal will begin to burn off with temperatures as low as 660F.

Yeah, but it seems to me like it's essentially the same idea. Or rather that it's the application of a slightly different medium to achieve essentially the same result (i.e., darkening the surface to attract heat), which is why I likened it to seasoning a pan. Or am I missing something (which I admit may be happening here)?

To me it seems like the major difference is that a stone has a lot more thermal mass than a pizza pan. So naturally it takes a lot longer to get the stone hot enough to vaporize the charcoal layer off of it, compared to the time it takes to vaporize the seasoning on a pizza pan.

Am I just totally not getting the point of what Bert's doing here? Cuz I thought I understood his objective, but now I'm not sure.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.