Cake Yeast Dough

[Jackie Tran]

Thank you guys.  I appreciate it.  

John and Marlon,

Caputo 00
64% water (but I live in the desert)
0.1% CY (I also am at high altitude)
2.5% salt

I'm just gonna say it.  I don't like making NP pizza in my Forno Bravo oven.  At least I don't like the floor.  It's just too hot.  I need a less conductive material or a better oven.   These pies were baked off the floor for what seems like half the bake.  John as far as I can tell they were around 70 seconds.   I could see the bake time going down if I had a more balanced oven.  

Chau

[TXCraig1]

I don't like making NP pizza in my Forno Bravo oven.  At least I don't like the floor.  It's just too hot.  I need a less conductive material or a better oven.   These pies were baked off the floor for what seems like half the bake.  

I've posted on the same subject recently in a couple other threads. Much, if not most, firebrick appears to be a little too conductive for the upper end of the NP temp range. Once you pass 850F or so, bottoms seem to start burning fast. I first noticed this in Gene's oven. I can't find any good numbers, but I'm estimating the typical firebrick floor is 2-3X as conductive as the Biscotto di Sorrento floors you find in a traditional NP oven (1.1 vs. 0.3-0.6 W/m*K).

[Jackie Tran]

I've posted on the same subject recently in a couple other threads. Much, if not most, firebrick appears to be a little too conductive for the upper end of the NP temp range. Once you pass 850F or so, bottoms seem to start burning fast. I first noticed this in Gene's oven. I can't find any good numbers, but I'm estimating the typical firebrick floor is 2-3X as conductive as the Biscotto di Sorrento floors you find in a traditional NP oven (1.1 vs. 0.3-0.6 W/m*K).

Craig it was one of your recent posts that prompted me to post this.  In my inexperience, I really didn't want to believe it but Marco was right.  I wasn't here when he was and I believe he is credited with saying that you need a NP specific oven to make NP pizza.  Now, I will say it can be done in a FB or like oven BUT they aren't built for NP pizza.  They are less efficient and a bit more cumbersome and that's baking 1 freaking pie at a time.   They work but makes the job a bit harder.  And at 850F,  there's not a lot of time for mistakes.  Use the right tool for the job.  My next oven (if there is a next) will probably be a SF or an Acunto.  

If you want to make NP pizza most of the time, get a "real" NP oven.  It will do that and other styles.  If you only want NP once in awhile, you can probably do that in most WFOs out there.

[dellavecchia]

Craig it was one of your recent posts that prompted me to post this.  In my inexperience, I really didn't want to believe it but Marco was right.  I wasn't here when he was and I believe he is credited with saying that you need a NP specific oven to make NP pizza.  Now, I will say it can be done in a FB or like oven BUT they aren't built for NP pizza.  They are less efficient and a bit more cumbersome and that's baking 1 freaking pie at a time.   They work but makes the job a bit harder.  And at 850F,  there's not a lot of time for mistakes.  Use the right tool for the job.  My next oven (if there is a next) will probably be a SF or an Acunto.  

If you want to make NP pizza most of the time, get a "real" NP oven.  It will do that and other styles.  If you only want NP once in awhile, you can probably do that in most WFOs out there.

I have to always wait for the floor to cool in my P70 too, usually around 1/2 hour after I rake the coals to the side. Otherwise I get nasty burn rings as well.

John

[bakeshack]

Chau, I would suggest that you start baking at around 800F or 775F and try to build a really large fire.  You should not be able to put your hand even at the mouth of the oven.  This will somehow balance out the bottom and top heat.  The lower temp floor will allow you to bake at least 2 at a time without needing to lift the pies.  That is what I have been doing in my homemade oven and the 45-50 sec pies came naturally and the results were night and day.

[andreguidon]

Nice Bake Chau! and also nice test for the floor... i am building a new oven, and i am going to import the Neapolitan floor and mouth, because of the conductive proproites of the biscotto sorrentino, i would love yo find a material with the same result, but haven't found it yet. any ideas Craig?

[TXCraig1]

Nice Bake Chau! and also nice test for the floor... i am building a new oven, and i am going to import the Neapolitan floor and mouth, because of the conductive proproites of the biscotto sorrentino, i would love yo find a material with the same result, but haven't found it yet. any ideas Craig?

No idea. Perhaps it is something that you could cast yourself if you could figure out the right clay?

[Chicago Bob]

Chau,
Would it work in your oven if you were to obtain(if even possible) say, a nice 20in. round  section/piece of the biscotto sorrentino and lay that on top of your current flour...or is this crazy man talk?  

[andreguidon]

maybe if i can get a person to make a Cordierite floor?? Does the Cordierite have similar conductive proprieties?

[TXCraig1]

maybe if i can get a person to make a Cordierite floor?? Does the Cordierite have similar conductive proprieties?

No, cordierite is 3.0W/m*K, so it is 3X as conductive as typical firebrick and perhaps 10X more conductive than Biscotto di Sorrento .

[andreguidon]

got, i was thinking the opposite... i am going to research around... who know what ill find... thank Craig!

[Jackie Tran]

Chau, I would suggest that you start baking at around 800F or 775F and try to build a really large fire.  You should not be able to put your hand even at the mouth of the oven.  This will somehow balance out the bottom and top heat.  The lower temp floor will allow you to bake at least 2 at a time without needing to lift the pies.  That is what I have been doing in my homemade oven and the 45-50 sec pies came naturally and the results were night and day.

Marlon, thank you for the tip and insight.  I have used that before this bake when I was not sufficiently heating up the wfo on purpose to only make a few NP pies and then mostly NY pies.  I would fire the oven up for only an hour and a half to get the floor to 750, then move the fire to the left and then build a rip roaring flame.   For this particular bake, I decided to preheat the wfo for 3 hours in an attempt to really saturate the whole oven with heat.  By the end of 3 hours, the floor was too hot.  I already knew I would be baking off the floor most of the time because I wanted to see if there was a difference with a really hot dome in my particular oven.  This was also yet an experimental dough for me, so the next time, I will marriage a similar dough with your tips and see what the difference is.  

Thank you Andre.  Please let us know if you come up with a solution that works.  Just a question for the science experts on the forum.  Is concrete a safe material to bake on?  Would it be more or less conductive than firebrick?  Would it be stable enough to withstand repeated high temp firings?

Bobby, great idea.  I believe that if I could get my hands on a thick piece of biscotti sorrentino, then it would work really well in my oven.  It would also act to lower the ceiling by a few inches as well.  

Chau

[TXCraig1]

I think a light to medium weight concrete would have about the right thermal conductivity, but I doubt it would handle the heat well. Linear thermal expansion in concrete is about 6X cordierite, for example. Tom can probably give you a better idea.

[Chicago Bob]

Bobby, great idea.  I believe that if I could get my hands on a thick piece of biscotti sorrentino, then it would work really well in my oven.  It would also act to lower the ceiling by a few inches as well.  

Chau

Yes, this is what Bill(moderator) does to lower his oven's ceiling. Seems like a pretty slick mod.

[Jackie Tran]

Yes, this is what Bill(moderator) does to lower his oven's ceiling. Seems like a pretty slick mod.

I think Bill ordered an extra floor tile for his oven but it is the same proprietary material as his oven and not a biscotti sorrentino tile as in Craig's oven.  But Earthstone's material is likely better in quality and function than the tiles FB uses.  I'll ask Bill what floor temp he bakes at and if he has burning issues or not.   The one time I saw Bill cook in his oven I did not recall him having to bake off the floor to avoid burning issues.

[RobynB]

Yep, that's one thing I do wonder about sometimes...  if there are any cons to the change I made in the floor of my oven.  The firebrick floor is gorgeous, but I occasionally wonder if the tiles that came with the oven would cook a little "cooler" than the firebrick.  They are less porous and lighter in color, a very different material than my firebrick.  A friend is curing his new FGM with the standard floor; I can't wait to see how his floor compares to mine. 

[Serpentelli]

This is very interesting to me. Yet another variable in why a pie may cook a certain way --- the conductivity of the floor material.

This was probably answered somewhere else, so forgive me and feel free to direct me there! But I was wondering:

850F, or 900F is what it is, regardless of how you got there or what the surface holding that temperature is, correct?

So if a person is getting excessive bottom char before the top is felt to be done, then couldn't that person just do a shorter initial firing of the oven --- to get a lower floor temp --- and then strive for a more aggressive rolling top flame (right before cooking) in order to achieve a better "balance" between top and bottom temps? This is assuming that "most" of the other variables such as flour type, hydration, etc are static of course.

Maybe I'm missing something here. Usually that's the case. I've become very comfortable with the slow pace at which my brain becomes saturated.

John K

[shuboyje]

Two points. 

I've used Whitacre Greer light duty fire bricks now in 2 ovens and have not had this issue.  I can't find their thermal conductivity online but they do work pretty well for anyone who can get them looking to build in the future.

As for a material to simulate biscotto di sorrento, I think you would get close with any refractory clay body.  The difference is how it's made.  Firebrick are dry pressed.  This makes them very dense, and therefore more conductive.  Biscotto is traditionally slab formed, it is much less dense, and much less conductive.  I bet if you slab formed and fired a fire clay body you would end up with a result close enough to simulate Biscotto.  It's one of the many things I plan to try at some point, lol.  But that is a long list, I need a staff.

[Jackie Tran]

then couldn't that person just do a shorter initial firing of the oven --- to get a lower floor temp --- and then strive for a more aggressive rolling top flame (right before cooking) in order to achieve a better "balance" between top and bottom temps?
John K

John K, this is what Marlon suggested above.  I have used this method many times.  It works well if you are going to bake 1-2 NP pies.  After that the floor temp climbs pretty rapidly with a large rolling flame.

Jeff, good to know about whitacre greer light duty fire bricks.  I would really be interested in trying these.   What floor and dome temp are you baking at and how fast is your typical bake? 

Thanks,
Chau

[pizza dr]

Craig it was one of your recent posts that prompted me to post this.  In my inexperience, I really didn't want to believe it but Marco was right.  I wasn't here when he was and I believe he is credited with saying that you need a NP specific oven to make NP pizza.  Now, I will say it can be done in a FB or like oven BUT they aren't built for NP pizza.  They are less efficient and a bit more cumbersome and that's baking 1 freaking pie at a time.   They work but makes the job a bit harder.  And at 850F,  there's not a lot of time for mistakes.  Use the right tool for the job.  My next oven (if there is a next) will probably be a SF or an Acunto.  

If you want to make NP pizza most of the time, get a "real" NP oven.  It will do that and other styles.  If you only want NP once in awhile, you can probably do that in most WFOs out there.

Chau... I've come to the same conclusion.  I came upon this conclusion when I had the opportunity to bake a pizza in a real NP oven...OK this is kind of a weird story but I was at my local wine shop.  There is an attached restaurant that I've been to a couple of times but its not very good... the place is a dump really.  Well one day while I was buying some wine, I noticed an outdoor kitchen of sorts with a bunch of junk in it.  The owner was there and I asked her if I could poke around the backyard kitchen.  

And there it was.  It was like one of those  finds you see on TV where some dude put a Bugatti in a barn 50 years ago... well this was a true hand built Italian wood fired oven.  It literally had been sitting there for at least 15 years... it was full of pots and pans, dirt and a few rodents nests. I was looking for a plaque or some sort of badge that would clue me into the maker but the entire oven was enclosed in stucco... including the mouth of the oven    

The owner told me that her husband bought the oven and had it shipped from Italy.  Then they took a trip to Naples so that he could learn how to cook on it! You have to understand that this was over 20 years ago... I can't imagine there were many Italian built WFO's in the US back then... let alone in Las Cruces NM on the back porch of a tiny burger joint!  When the owners husband died, so did the oven... it hadn't been fired since.  

So I asked the lady if I could cook on it... She put a grin on ear to ear.  You could tell that oven was her husbands pride and joy.  So the next weekend I cleaned it up and fired that beast up.  She sprung to life and I had her saturated in about 3 hours. Its huge!   I brought some dough from the house and toppings for a simple marg pie. The owner said it was a good as her husbands  

I have to say that there is no comparison between my FB and this oven.... none.  A few more bakes on that oven and I think I could make a decent pie.
I asked the owner if she would consider selling it to me but she said no... it was too sentimental for her.  

Sadly... I forgot my phone that day and I have not one pic to remember the event by... I'm hoping that I can do that again sometime soon though.  But now I'm on a quest for a real oven. I really dont think there is a substitute  ( well there is but its like the Bugatti.. once you drive one.. everything else is just a car) My wife threatened me within an inch of my life if a big crate showed up in front of the garage though  

Scot