Author Topic: canadave's NY Style recipe  (Read 52015 times)

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Offline Mikro-Midas

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #75 on: July 06, 2009, 10:21:08 AM »
Well, now I have tried both the Candanave recipe and Pete-zza´s modified, thinner version. I divided the doughs in two and put (the four of) them in freezer bags in the refrigerator, coated with some oil. I had some problems, though. When it was time to take them out of the bags, after a couple of hours on the kitchen counter, it was really hard to get them out in a nondestructive way. They were much flatter (big volume, but low hight) than my usual doughs tend to be, and very airy/light, so I had to be very careful when I took them out. I might have have used a little to little oil, cause it seemed to stick to the bottom of the bag more than normal. The bag also seemed to small, the balls being so flat, so that made it harder to get them out properly. The doughs also was a little hard to handle when they were out; I had to be very careful and the doughs didn't get to the right size. Under I have put pictures of three of my four pizza attempts. I ended up reshaping the two last doughs and had a new rise, 30 min. in the sun. The fourth (one from Dave's recipe) was made after 1 1/2 day (in contrast to the others, which was made after 3 1/2 days in the fridge), and I don't have any picture of it, but it looked like the others and tasted similar. This can, dough, be because of my problems sited above. I'm not really sure which of the other pizzas was from which recipe, but I guess the largest of them (it still didn't reach the 12 inch mark) was from the original recipe, since it was supposed to be thicker. They tasted good, but I guess they could have been better without my problems. Any improvement suggestions, anyone?


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #76 on: July 06, 2009, 01:50:04 PM »
Mikro-Midas,

I am away from my home base this week, but can you tell me where you are located and what type and brand of flour you used, and what bake protocol you used?

You should be aware that the Canadave dough is prone to high fermentation because of the high hydration and the relatively large amount of yeast. The problem with spreading can be resolved with hydration control (in relation to the type of flour used) and by using a bowl or similar container to store the dough balls instead of plastic storage bags.

Can you also tell me whether you re-shaped, re-kneaded, or re-balled the dough balls before you used them for reasons other than to resurrect the dough because of the spreading and sticking problems? With Canadave's dough formulation you should have been able to shape and stretch the dough balls out to size without any difficulty.

Peter

Offline CaptSammy

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #77 on: July 06, 2009, 02:25:59 PM »
. . .but Peter talked me into posting my latest version of my NY style recipe.
Enjoy Dave

Great post.  Thank you very much and once again Thanks Peter
Capt Sammy

Offline Mikro-Midas

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #78 on: July 06, 2009, 08:43:10 PM »
I'm located i Oslo, Norway. I used regular all-purpose flour and mixed in some gluten flour (about 1/2 a deciliter per 7 dl of total flour). They began selling alimenti Dallari tipo "0" in some stores some mounts ago, but I'm not sure if it is any good (my pizza making have improved a lot since the last time I tried it. Anyone tried it?). Anyway, I usually am trying to make my pizzas a little more healthy and am therefor in need to mix wholemeal wheat with gluten flour. Do you know if I need to use more gluten flour then to make it rise sufficiently? Anyhow, back to the answers: I'm not sure what you mean by bake protocol but if your asking how I made it, I tried to follow the directions. I had to sift the all-purpose and gluten flour together some times, and the flour/water ratio was adjusted to find the slightly sticky, but not "sticking to your finger" kind of sticky, feel. I then used the wondowpane test, which I've just read about and never actually seen anyone do, so I don't know if I doing it correct, but it can't be very far from good enough.

What do you mean by hydration control?

The balls were just re-balled and let to get a new rise.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #79 on: July 07, 2009, 11:43:38 AM »
Mikro-Midas,

The reason I asked you where you are located is that flours used outside of the U.S. are often weaker than U.S. flours and don't perform in the same fashion, and often with the same degree of success, as U.S. flours . High-gluten flours, which is the type of flour called for by Canadave's recipe, are often unavailable in many countries outside of the U.S. Substituting bread flour will often work, but substituting all-purpose flour, even if supplemented with vital wheat gluten (VWG), doesn't produce equivalent results. Moreover, when using weaker flours, it is usually necessary to alter the hydration value of the recipe such that it approaches the rated absorption value of the particular flour used. In the U.S., for an all-purpose flour, that hydration value would be around 60%. That is what I mean by "hydration control".

In your case, you may want to lower the hydration value to around 60% and make whatever ancillary adjustments are necessary if you plan to supplement your flour with VWG and/or whole wheat flour. If you are using, or plan to use, only whole wheat flour, possibly supplemented with VWG, I can't tell you how well Canadave's recipe will work with that flour blend.

If you use bowls instead of freezer bags, you should avoid the need to re-ball, re-shape or re-knead the dough balls. Under normal conditions, you never want to do this sort of thing. It sounds like you are trying to make four 12" pizzas rather than two 16" pizzas. If such is the case, you shouldn't have any problems making four 12" pizza.

By bake protocol, I meant how you baked your pizzas, that is, using a pizza stone or tiles or screen, the type of oven, the rack positioning, oven temperature and bake time.

Peter

Offline Mikro-Midas

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #80 on: July 08, 2009, 09:57:54 AM »
Hmm, ok. I don't really have much choice when it comes to types of flour. Importing King Arthur or something from across the globe is to expensive for me. As I said, some of the grocery stores sell alimenti Dallari tipo "0", which they call pizza flour, so I'll try that again, but for Whole Wheat I'll need to use the vital wheat gluten (possibly in some combination). Do you know if I need to use more vital wheat gluten when I'm mixing it into whole wheat than into all-purpose? Bread flour have I never seen in any store, so that's out of the question.

About the bake control, I used a regular electric home oven with a stone at the bottom position. The oven was heated for about an hour. It goes up to 300 C (572 F), but I don't know how the stone affect this. I tried to pre-bake the three first pizzas, but I wouldn't say that that made them any more voluminous than the last one, which I didn't pre-heat. The three first was after the pre-bake topped with sauce, meat and cheese and then baked on the pizza mode for 2-3 min and then 2-3 min more with heat from above. The last one was just heated with the pizza mode for about 5 min.

Wouldn't the dough stick just as much to the bowl than to the freezer bag?

When it comes to the hydration level, is the dough supposed to feel firmer, less sticky, when I'm using some other flour than high-gluten? Or do you just mean that I have to adjust the amount of water, because different flours have different absorption levels?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #81 on: July 08, 2009, 10:39:51 AM »
Mikro-Midas,

I am not familiar with the Dallari tipo "0" flour, so you may just have to try some to see if it works. Until you know, you might try making just a single 12" pizza as a test pizza.

I rarely work with whole wheat flour, so you might look under the Specialty-Grain board at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/board,61.0.html to see if you find the answer to the questions on the whole wheat flour or else await possible replies from other members who do work regularly with whole wheat flours. They may also be able to give you insights on whether you can modify Canadave's recipe to use whole wheat flour.

I suggested the use of bowls mainly to reduce the spreading of the dough balls. To prevent or minimize sticking, I oil the bowls before placing the dough balls into the bowls.

Different flours, at least in the U.S., have different absorption values as established by the millers of the flours. For the high-gluten flour as called for in Canadave's recipe, it is around 63%; for bread flour, it is around 62%; for all-purpose flour, it is around 60-61%. These values can vary somewhat from one brand to another. Professionals often use lower values to reduce handling problems. To read more on this subject, see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4646.msg39204/topicseen.html#msg39204.

Peter

Offline Chi_Guy

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #82 on: April 05, 2013, 02:52:18 PM »
Bumping up an ancient thread here.

I'm eager to try canadave's recipe but don't have any high gluten flour which is what everyone seems to be using.  Has anyone tried this recipe with bread flour yet?  I'm thinking of modifying the recipe to lower the hydration to 63% for the KABF I'll be using.  Is that a good idea or should I stick to the 64% hydration in the original recipe? 

Offline carl333

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #83 on: November 25, 2014, 06:26:07 PM »
canadave, several years have passed, have you tweeked your recipe? I'm ready to go with your recipe.  Any positive changes?
Carl


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #84 on: November 25, 2014, 07:21:07 PM »
carl333,

I doubt that Canadave has tweaked his recipe, for the reasons given at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6702.msg57495/topicseen.html#msg57495.

Peter

Offline carl333

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #85 on: November 25, 2014, 09:01:24 PM »
Thank you Peter for chiming in.

 I've been a lurker for several months now, just absorbing and absorbing. As a newbie to pizza dough making, I have earned the importance of hydration and its reasoning,  oven temps, different flours, electrolyse (u know what I mean) Right now I'm trying to perfect my dough. Prior to my studies here,  I would just read a recipe, slap a dough together and hope for the best. I can't believe all the dry dough balls I have created and couldn't understand why my results were so far from the local pizza joint.

I've read so many of your comprehensive posts in this forum quoting subject titles and post numbers it truly amazes me. How do you do it??

I just completed canadave's recipe and its aging in the fridge as we speak. I can't wait to see the results. I have a gram scale and measured everything to the T. The most difficult part was trying to simulate the dough to the bottom of a babys bum and trying to get that right feel and hydration. I threw all the flour in anyways and hoping for the best.  Not experienced enough to know as yet. 550 max

BTW, I have a heavy cast iron pizza pan that I have been using for some time. Would I see a difference with quarry stone and if so, what would I expect? I have one on my shopping list. Does one big tile retain heat as much as several smaller tiles?

tks Peter
Carl

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #86 on: November 26, 2014, 02:22:20 PM »
BTW, I have a heavy cast iron pizza pan that I have been using for some time. Would I see a difference with quarry stone and if so, what would I expect? I have one on my shopping list. Does one big tile retain heat as much as several smaller tiles?
carl333,

What you use as a substrate or platform on which to bake a pizza depends to a large degree on the type of pizza you want to make. Once you decide on the type of pizza you want to make, you should then use the best substrate or platform for that pizza, whether it is a pizza stone, quarry tiles, a pizza screen, a disk (perforated or unperforated), a pan (including a cast iron pan, a deep-dish pan, or a perforated or unperforated cutter pan), a metal sheet, or maybe even some combination of the foregoing (like a screen and stone, a pan and stone, etc.). In the stone realm, you can decide between tiles and a single pizza stone, but if you are serious about your pizza making in the sense that you will be making pizzas fairly regularly, then a single pizza stone of the proper size and material is more likely to be a better choice than tiles because of their better conductivity and heat retention.

A common problem that I have seen is where a member tries to make a particular type of pizza fit whatever substrate or platform they have or hand. Sometimes that works but not always.

Peter

Offline carl333

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #87 on: November 26, 2014, 04:30:30 PM »
OMG! So many substrates to choose from!! I think my standard would be a NY/American style pizza. I'm thinking that a full size quarry stone will do. What say you?

tks Peter
Carl

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #88 on: November 26, 2014, 04:58:22 PM »
OMG! So many substrates to choose from!! I think my standard would be a NY/American style pizza. I'm thinking that a full size quarry stone will do. What say you?

tks Peter
carl333,

For the NY style, a pizza stone or a steel plate (see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,31267.msg310998.html#msg310998) are perhaps the best choices. Many American style pizzas are made using a dough with a lot of sugar (think Papa John's), so a stone or steel plate would not be the best choices in most cases. For the American style pizza, a pizza screen might be more suitable for standard home oven applications.

Peter


 

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