Author Topic: canadave's NY Style recipe  (Read 52701 times)

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Offline Wallman

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2005, 05:50:35 AM »
Dave,
I added the extra flour at the end, I guess I should have said kneeding rather than mixing.  The dough was still sticky until I added a more flour.  Still it was easy to work with after rising in the fridge.


Offline canadave

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2005, 10:33:48 AM »
Hmmmm....I'm still a little confused about where you're saying the extra 1/4 cup is coming into play.  if you're talking about the stage of the instructions right after the 20-minute autolyse, where you're to "mix on low speed for about 10 minutes, gradually adding flour until the dough is no longer wet and sticky," then about 1/4 cup or so (gradually added in) sounds about right--remember, you start out with only 2/3 of the flour to begin with, and this stage is where the rest is added.  Or are you saying that you're adding in the rest of the flour during that 10 minutes, but then afterward find you need to add an ADDITIONAL 1/4 cup of flour?

Online Pete-zza

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2005, 10:41:33 AM »
I have one of Canadave's NY style doughs in the works and the ratio of flour and water, which I weighed on my digital scale (Soehnle Futura), was just about perfect. I took some photos of the dough making process to use for instructional purposes for one of our new members who is attempting a Lehmann NY style dough, and those photos appear starting at Reply #9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19565.html#msg19565. As can be seen in the last pair of photos, the dough is quite normal looking, without signs of wetness. When I checked the dough this morning, I saw that the dough was pushing up against the lid of the metal container I used--so much so that I decided to move it to a larger container. Since the finished dough temperature was just under 70 degrees F (I had used tap water at 65.5 degrees F), and my refrigerator compartment was at 43 degrees F, this came somewhat as a surprise. I think the answer lies in the fact that Dave's recipe calls for about three times the amount, by baker's percent, of yeast than the basic Lehmann recipe, and, in addition, Dave's recipe calls for sugar, whereas sugar is optional in the Lehmann recipe. Maybe the use of autolyse, which is not used in the Lehmann case, is also a factor. This is why I love playing around with new recipes. I always learn something. 

Peter
« Last Edit: September 01, 2006, 01:58:35 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline canadave

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2005, 12:52:59 PM »
Peter,

I'm happy to hear your dough is faring nicely so far, and that you're running into surprises ("educational opportunities"?) as you go :)  As Earl Weaver once famously said, "It's what you learn after you know it all that counts."  Truer words were never said.

I assume you'll let the dough sit in the fridge for 4-6 days?

Dave


Online Pete-zza

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2005, 02:43:02 PM »
Dave,

I recently mentioned to a friend that I keep a pizza "to do" list. And because I keep adding new pizzas to make as old ones leave the list, the list never seems to get shorter. For me, a new pizza doesn't go on the list unless I think I will learn something new or useful from making it. An "educational opportunity" as you call it. Because of the seemingly endless "educational opportunities" in making pizzas, especially if you hang around this forum and pick up ideas as I do, I don't often repeat recipes exactly, even the Lehmann doughs of which I have made quite a few. There is always a spin or twist that captures my interest and curiosity. How else would someone end up baking a pizza on a bed of rocks?

As for the dough using your recipe, I'm shooting for 4-6 days. Even there I will learn something because I almost never let a dough go for 4-6 days. While I wait, I speculate as to what I think I will get when the time arrives.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 03:00:02 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Wallman

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2005, 04:47:41 PM »
Dave,
Sorry about my lack of clarity. I am saying I added an additional 1/4 c. of flour (approximately) after adding the rest (final 1/3) of the flour during the 10 minute kneeding on low.  The dough was pretty sticky after adding the final 1/3 of the flour, so I just kept adding flour until it seemed smooth and not too stickly.  I'm guessing I used a TOTAL of about 2 lbs and 1/4 c. flour (sorry about mixing weights and volumes!).

Like Pete I noticed the dough did rise more than the Tom L. recipe in my fridge.

Offline canadave

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2005, 05:17:03 PM »
Wow, Wallman....thanks for clearing that up, although I'm not sure why your attempt required an additional 1/4 cup.  Anyway, hope you'll try the recipe again with a longer rise time...I think you'll like it.

Offline canadave

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2005, 12:53:33 PM »
Just occurred to me to mention this for the benefits of any newbies who might stumble across this recipe; instead of putting it in a separate thread, figured I'd just tack it on here:

As with almost any dough or pizza recipe, your final perception of the taste (which of course is the ultimate arbiter) will be HIGHLY influenced by the other ingredients you put on.  I cannot overemphasize this enough.

For instance, I've made several instances of my dough and put on some cheapo no-name supermarket sauce and mozza cheese because I had no time to go get anything else and was caught unprepared (a lesson I've since learned from).  The final overall taste was FAR inferior to the taste I got when I used the exact same dough with some good sauce and cheese.  Not even close.

The lesson here is that a pizza is like a car.  You could have a Porsche chassis on your car, but if it has a Ford Pinto's engine, tires, interior, performance, and penchant for spontaneously bursting into flames, overall you're not going to be very happy with the results.  You need a good *overall system*--crust, cheese, sauce, toppings, baking procedure, prep procedure, tools, etc--to achieve the most optimum results.

Cheers,
Dave

Online Pete-zza

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2005, 03:28:00 PM »
Last night, I finally got to make a pizza using Canadave’s recipe for his NY style dough. I say “finally” because I followed his advice and let the dough cold ferment for a bit over 5 days. That’s about 3-4 days longer than I normally go.

I made the dough as exactly as I could in accordance with Dave’s instructions. Where I departed from his instructions was principally in using a pizza screen in conjunction with my pizza stone instead of baking the pizza directly on the pizza stone (or tiles) alone. I used the pizza screen only because my pizza stone will not accommodate a 16-inch pizza. I also wanted to use the screen to be able to make a more direct comparison with other 16-inch NY style pizzas I have made using the same screen. Another small change I made was to use a different sauce, on which I will have more to say below.

The dough was very easy to make and I had no problems with it whatsoever. This pleased me since it confirmed that the baker’s percents I calculated appear to be accurate enough to rely upon, particularly if one is using a decent scale. The dough did rise faster than the Lehmann NY style doughs I make, and a few large bubbles formed in the dough after about a day of rising (to see them, go to Reply #3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2238.msg19652.html#msg19652), but after I poked them with the tip of a sharp knife the dough settled down and remained fairly constant until I was ready to work with it.

I removed the dough from the refrigerator after 5 days and set it (covered with plastic wrap) on my countertop to warm up. Since the dough, my refrigerator, and my kitchen were all on the cool side, it took about 4 hours for the dough to reach 60 degrees F, the temperature I generally use before handling and shaping the dough. It had occurred to me to use my proofing box to speed up the process but I wanted to stay true to Dave’s instructions and not introduce a new element into the exercise. After the dough had reached 60 degrees F, I shaped and stretched it into a 16-inch skin. The dough was extremely extensible but that posed no problem since I have had ample experience with extensible, high-hydration doughs after all the Lehmann doughs I have made. I actually believe that Dave is accurate when he says that the dough can be kept for more than 6 days. It will be extensible but still usable and not overfermented. It’s hard to say that about many doughs.

The dough was dressed in a conventional pepperoni style. For the cheeses, I used a combination of shredded mozzarella and provolone cheeses. For the sauce, I chose to use fellow member Les’ grape tomato pizza sauce as described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1931.0.html, which I hope our members and guests will read to see an example of the artisanship and passion that Les applies in his quest to make the perfect dough, sauce and pizza. It’s a high production value thread.

The pizza was baked on the screen on the top oven rack for about 5 minutes, followed by about 2 to 3 minutes on my pizza stone which had been preheated for about one hour at around 500-550 degrees F. I then moved the pizza back onto the top oven rack to let the top crust brown a bit more under the heat of the broiler element, which I had turned on just as I moved the pizza onto the pizza stone. I would estimate that the total bake time was around 8 or 9 minutes. This is a bit longer than the bake times I usually use with a 16-inch Lehmann NY style pizza but the dough for the Lehmann pizza weighs about 20% less than the Canadave dough for the 16-inch.

The photos below show the finished product. The pizza turned out exceptionally well, one of the best NY styles that I have made, including a few from some well known and highly regarded pizza cookbooks. The crust was both soft and chewy and it had a nice open and airy crumb and good flavor. And Les’ grape tomato pizza sauce was a perfect accompaniment. What impressed me most about the sauce is that only a small amount went a long way. I only needed a thin coating. I believe this was possible because of the richness of the sauce and the intensity of the flavor that comes from using the ground anise, Les’ “secret” ingredient. It takes a bit of labor to make Les’ sauce, but if you do as he does and make a large batch and freeze it, in small containers, as I did also, then it is available for use whenever needed. I think it is worth the effort. Both Dave’s and Les’ recipes will go into my “favorites” file. They are both first rate.

For those who wish to try Dave’s dough recipe and would like either downsizing or upsizing the formulation I posted earlier to make a larger or smaller size pizza I’d be happy to assist. I can also modify the quantities of ingredients for those who prefer a thinner or thicker crust. For example, for a Lehmann NY style crust I usually use a thickness factor of 0.10-0.105. I calculated a thickness factor of over 0.13 for Dave’s formulation. I personally plan at some time to make a thinner version of Dave’s dough recipe to be able to make a more meaningful comparison to the thinner versions I now make. But I can already tell that the results will be very good.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 01, 2006, 02:00:50 PM by Pete-zza »


Online Pete-zza

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2005, 03:31:18 PM »
And for a typical slice...


Offline pizzapal

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2005, 02:22:35 AM »
That is great looking pizza!  I noticed that this recipe (and others) call for adding the oil after the dough ball has formed.  I've also read recipes that recommend adding the oil to the water/yeast mixture before the flour (which seems much easier).  Can anyone comment on the pros or cons to these different approaches?

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2005, 10:04:50 AM »
pizzapal,

Thanks for the compliment. It's really an easy pizza to make.

As to your question on the oil, you already have the "pro" part. It is a lot easier to just mix the oil with the water, yeast, etc. And you aren't as likely to forget it. The "con" part is that if you add the oil before the water, the flour will start to absorb part of the oil and act as a barrier to absorption of the water by the flour. The objective is to get the flour to absorb as much water as possible, and the oil hinders that. At least that's the theory behind it. Of course, you have to remember to add the oil. Also, adding the oil prolongs the knead time by about a minute or two usually, which some may consider a "con".

I personally first became aware of adding the oil after the water from reading the writings of Tom Lehmann, a pizza dough expert at the American Institute of Baking, who routinely recommends that approach to pizza operators.

Peter

Offline pizzapal

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2005, 05:25:11 PM »
Pete-zza,

Many thanks for explaining the factors regarding oil incorporation.  I would prefer not to use any oil but with a 500 degree oven it is necessary.  In the past I've always had a hard time getting all the oil absorbed when adding it last.  I will give it another try since I have a new mixer (DLX).  Thanks to Canadave for his recipe and to the forum members who share their pizza passion.   

Offline Danes Dad

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #38 on: January 01, 2006, 11:28:59 AM »
Canadave - Great recipe!

I made a 16" pepperoni/olive using your recipe.  I know it wasn't a true NY as it wasn't just cheese, but I followed everything else.  You can see pictures of the pie at this link:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2280.20.html

I hand kneaded my dough for 13minutes on a marble slab.  Everything turned out well.  Peter is also doing your recipe by hand kneading so it will be interesting to see his photos.

The only thing i'll change next time is about 1 minute less under the broiler heat.  Actually two things, i'll also try to keep it in the fridge for atleast 48hrs.


Danes Dad
« Last Edit: January 01, 2006, 01:22:36 PM by Danes Dad »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2006, 05:45:20 PM »
While visiting a friend in Massachusetts over the holidays, I offered to make a “thin” pizza based on Canadave’s NY style dough. The formulation I ended up with, for a 16-inch pizza, was as follows:

Thin Version of Canadave’s NY Style Dough Formulation for 16-inch Pizza
100%, KASL high-gluten flour, 12.28 oz. (347.67 g.), (2 1/2 c. + 2 T. + 1 t.)
64.1%, Water (tap), 7.86 oz. (222.86 g.), (just under 1 c.)
1.32%, Sugar, 0.16 oz. (4.58 g.), (a bit over 1 t.)
4.63%, Oil, 0.57 oz. (16.10 g.), (a bit under 3 1/2 t.)
1.32%, Salt, 0.16 oz. (4.58 g.), (between 3/4-7/8 t.)
0.78%, IDY (instant dry yeast), 0.10 oz. (2.72 g.), (a bit more than 7/8 t.)
Total dough weight = 21.11 oz. (598.51 g.)
Thickness Factor (TF) = 0.105

In making the dough, I made a few changes in the instructions given by Canadave. First, I kneaded the dough entirely by hand. This was done out of necessity since my friend did not have any dough making machines. In fact, the only equipment that was available to me was a pizza stone, a wood peel, a postal scale, an instant-read thermometer and, of course, an oven (a gas oven). Fortunately, I had brought my 16-inch pizza screen with me from Texas.

Second, I altered the autolyse process a bit by incorporating all of the flour into the dough before adding and kneading in the salt and oil. I found the dough extremely easy to knead, which I attributed to the high hydration (64.1 %) and the use of the autolyse, which itself markedly increased the softness and handling qualities of the dough. I estimate that I hand kneaded the dough for about 15 minutes. In retrospect, I think I could have gotten away with maybe 10-12 minutes and possibly even less. The revelation is that I had no trouble at all in hand kneading the dough with KASL. This leads me to believe that King Arthur’s admonition not to hand knead a KASL dough in a home setting may not apply with equal force to pizza dough as to bread dough. Maybe the key is the use of the autolyse.

The finished dough, at a temperature of 76.5 degrees F, was refrigerated for 70 hours before being brought out to room temperature and allowed to warm up in preparation for handling and shaping. The warm-up time was about 1 1/2-2 hours. The dough handled very easily and I had no difficulties whatsoever in shaping and stretching the dough out to 16 inches. Once the skin was formed, it was dressed with a cooked Sicilian type pizza sauce (I used a slightly modified version of the 007bond sauce recipe in the first post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1535.0.html), pre-cooked Italian sausage, pepperoni slices, a 50/50 blend of Grande whole-milk and part-skim mozzarella cheeses, raw and sautéed mushrooms, raw and sautéed green peppers and onions, and chiffonade fresh basil.

The pizza was baked on the uppermost oven rack position for about 6 minutes and then shifted off of the pizza screen onto a pizza stone that had been preheated for about 1 hour at 500 degrees F, the maximum temperature of the particular oven I was using. I estimate that the pizza was on the stone for about another 8-10 minutes. Once I saw that the oven was not capable of delivering greater heat to bake the pizza faster, I simply did what Tom Lehmann says to do: I just let the pizza bake longer at the lower temperature. Fortunately, everything worked out very well and we got an excellent pizza as a result. Everything about the pizza was very good—the taste, texture, flavor and color were all first rate. The crumb was not as open and airy as other NY styles I have made, but it was still NY like. It even occurred to me that I may have actually overkneaded the dough. I might add that the crust was a bit sweeter than I prefer but that is a minor quibble and easy to adjust the next time. Overall, I like Canadave’s recipe very much. And so did my friend, who proclaimed the pizza to be better than any he has been able to buy from his favorite pizza place.

The photos below show the finished pizza.

Peter

Offline RockyMarciano

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2006, 10:42:04 PM »
I tried your recipe with failure, I did a 24 hour rise in the fridge and like 30 minutes outside, it didn't really proof at all.  With the lehmann recipe it, i did 24 hour in the fridge and an hour out and it was hugely proofed.  Anyways I didn't have time to  proof your dough properly cos I was in a hurry, so it yeah, turned out bad.  The dough was pretty tough/hard (not difficulty, texture).  It was flat, sorta uncooked, monster bubbles, i mean im sure your recipe is good, its just the fact that the dough wasn't proofed.  And I didn't measure the water temp this time, so that couldve been a factor too.  Also when i was kneeding the dough, it started to form sort of layers, sorta.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2006, 10:45:20 PM by RockyMarciano »

Offline RockyMarciano

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2006, 05:12:28 PM »
What really happened, I figured out was I didn't hydrate the yeast properly, ill give your recipe another shot, though it is a  too heavy  for a 16" pizza, it would make a real good 18"
« Last Edit: February 11, 2006, 05:14:41 PM by RockyMarciano »


Online Pete-zza

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2006, 05:32:24 PM »
Rocky,

If you go to Reply#39 in this thread you will see a "thin" 16-inch Canadave NY version I made but using a thickness factor of 0.105 to come closer to the "thin" NY style. The baker's percents were the same as I originally derived for Canadave's recipe. If you want to see my attempt at Canadave's original NY style recipe using his thickness factor (which I calculated to be over 0.13), see Reply #33. I thought both pizzas were very good.

I assumed that you must have made a mistake somewhere when you didn't get the results you were looking for when you tried Canadave's recipe. I think the recipe is a good one and well worth another try. It will be different from the Lehmann NY style in that it will have a softer and more tender crust and crumb, with a bit of sweetness. Unless you go with the "thin" version, it will also be quite a bit heavier. After looking at a lot of recipes for NY style doughs, and without the benefit of having lived in NY city or eaten a lot of NY pies, I have come to the conclusion that there must be two NY styles, a thick one and a thin one. Canadave both lived in NYC and ate a lot of NY pies, so he knows what he is talking about when it comes to NY pizzas.

Peter

Offline tdeane

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2008, 12:38:10 PM »
Not at all, Peter...feel free.  But of course (to any such members who might read this) it's a well-known fact that anything smaller than 16 inches isn't a *real* NY pizza ;) hehe

Thanks for the complimentary review.  It took me quite a while to put together, so I hope it's of some use.

Cheers,
Dave

p.s. It's quite possible I may continue to update the page, so I encourage interested readers to check back (I'll put a "last updated" date on the page)...in particular, I'd like to get some pictures posted once I get my new digital camera within the next couple of weeks (my old camera broke not too long ago).

Actually, in my seven years living in New York I never had a 16 inch pizza(or saw one), but I did see quite a few 14 inch pizzas. At least, I think they were 14 inch( I didn't actually measure them). But, many pizzerias in NY offer both a large and a small pizza. Or an 18" and a 14". It may have evn been a little smaller than 14", but I don't think so.

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2008, 05:38:24 PM »
tdeane,

Out of curiosity, I did a Google search to see if I could get a better feel for the sizes of New York style pizzas as sold in NYC. I found several places, like Grimaldi's, that sell a 16" size, but there seemed to be more in the 14" and 18" sizes that you mentioned. Some places use only "small" and "large" on their menus (as you also noted) or are silent as to size. For example, Ben's Pizza on MacDougal, which was canadave's favorite neighborhood pizzeria when he lived in NYC, does not list a size for its pizzas on its menu (at least the online version). I found a lot more places outside of NYC that sell 16" "NY style" pizzas. They are all over the country, no doubt trying to please transplanted New Yorkers.

Peter

Offline solconnection

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2008, 11:49:25 PM »
This recipe looks really great, so nicely laid out and informative. Great first recipe to try for me as it uses mostly easily accessible ingredients and techniques.

the only problem for me is that i do not have an electric mixer and was hoping for some tips on hand mixing.

Ive got a ball sitting in the fridge i made by mixing with a wooden spoon and then sort of helping combine the dough by stretching a little and folding it together with my fingers and the spoon (i wasn't really pounding together onto a surface in a way i would call 'kneading' but that was somewhat the effect of it, i didnt do it for two long either...then i contrinued with Pizza Brasils method mentioned in page 1 of the threadL -> pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2175.msg19132.html#msg19132

i havent baked it yet and i will report back to let you know how it goes. but it looks like a nice dough

but was just wondering if anybody else has an update or technique they are happy with for hand mixing/kneading this recipe :) is it ok to just mix the ingredients to a batter and then just knead it for a few mins?

thanks in advance, its much appreciated
-Dan

Online Pete-zza

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #46 on: December 22, 2008, 06:51:41 AM »
Dan,

I don't have specific hand kneading instructions for the Canadave recipe but you might apply those discussed at Reply 65 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg63786.html#msg63786.

Peter

Offline solconnection

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #47 on: December 22, 2008, 07:15:28 AM »
Dan,

I don't have specific hand kneading instructions for the Canadave recipe but you might apply those discussed at Reply 65 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg63786.html#msg63786.

Peter

Peter you are a weapon on the replies. big thanks (link looks very helpful)

-Dan

Offline solconnection

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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #48 on: December 25, 2008, 07:29:12 AM »
hmmm, i baked one of these the other day but didnt get very good results. the crust puffed up but was still gummy by the time everything else was cooked (i even par baked it a minute before quickly topping it), though there was some nice crispness to the base. I baked at 530 on the top shelf on my pizza crisper

I also found it very hard to form in to a pizza (peel?), there were air bubbles in the dough, which meant there were sections of it that were paper thin and others that were thicker..could it be that i needed to knead it better during the creation of the dough ball? (i was hand kneading).

I also think there was maybe just too much dough, i followed pete-zzas formulation for a 16"er but even though i made a huge pizza it still felt like i had a bit too much, especially around the edges. Maybe i would be better off with a 13 or 14 inch formulation.

I also found it a bit heavy, compared to another recipe i made at the same time, but maybe that is desirable in this style of pizza. I used a 13% protein AP flour.

if anyone has any ideas of where i went wrong i would really appreciate any thoughts. I see potential in this recipe and i want to try it again but first i need to learn from my mistakes.

thanks in advance and have a nice day
-Dan


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Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2008, 04:07:47 PM »
Dan,

I don't know if you caught it, but I actually gave two dough formulations for canadave's NY style dough, both for 16" pizzas. The first formulation is at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2175.msg19140.html#msg19140. The second dough formulation is at Reply 39 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2175.msg20385.html#msg20385. The first dough formulation was my attempt at a baker's percent version of canadave's original recipe where he gave the amounts of ingredients in volumes. The second dough formulation was a considerably thinner version of canadave's original recipe. As you will see at Reply 39, for that version I kneaded the dough by hand. Admittedly, canadave's version produces a thicker crust than most NY style doughs I have tried and read about, so you may find it easier to try the thinner version until such time as you feel more comfortable making the thicker version. If you decide that you would like to make a smaller pizza, that is easy enough to do using one of the dough calculating tools once you decide which dough formulation (the thick one or the thin one) you would like to use. If you want a really thin crust, that is also easy to do.

I think a good part of your problem is using the pizza crisper. Apparently it is ill suited for the canadave NY style. You should use either a pizza stone or, as I did, a pizza screeen. The problems you had with thin/thick areas in the skin and a rim that was too large should correct themselves with practice and experience.

Peter


 

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