Author Topic: canadave's NY Style recipe  (Read 52595 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline WildKaper

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1
Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #50 on: January 03, 2009, 01:02:33 PM »
Hi all -

My first post on this forum.  I just wanted to provide some feedback on Dave's recipe.  I must confess, I've never been to New York, but I've tried some "good" N.Y. Style Pizzas, and this was definitely better than those.  I followed all the instructions in Dave's initial email, and I had no problems making the dough or shaping the pizza (The only problem I had was that I was not comfortable lifting the dough to stretch it, so I did a bunch of mini-lifts and stretches on the board).  I also only have a 14" wooden peel and a 15" stone, so my crust was a bit thicker than a true N.Y. Style, but it tasted great nonetheless.  I might make three smaller dough balls next time, just to keep it thinner overall.

I only let my first dough ball sit for 24 hours.  My other dough ball is going to sit for 3-5 days.  I will let you know how that one turns out.

Thanks everyone for the great posts and instructions.


Offline WestCountry

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 151
Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #51 on: January 04, 2009, 01:17:24 PM »
Hi,

I used Canadave’s recipe to make 2 thin (13-14 inch) pizzas on Christmas Day, and they came out wonderful.  ;D

The dough had a little bit of crispiness, a little bit of chew, and lots of small bubbles – just what I like. This was my first time using a long cold rise (4-day) and KASL flour. I used Peter’s translated proportions below. These pies had the magical kind of quality that I strive for.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=6b46fae693e585ba19feb4f59d956fc2&topic=2175.msg19140#msg19140

Canadave's NY Style Dough Recipe (16-inch)
---------------------------------------------------------
100%, High-gluten flour (KASL), 16 oz. (453.6 g.), 3 3/4 c.
64.1%, Water (tap, cool), 10.25 oz. (290.7 g.), 1 1/4 c.
0.78%, IDY (instant dry yeast), 0.12 oz. (3.54 g.), 1 1/4 t.
1.31%, Fine sea salt, 0.21 oz. (5.98 g.), 1 t.
1.32%, Sugar, 0.21 oz. (5.98 g.), 1 1/2 t.
4.63%, Oil, 0.74 oz. (21 g.), 1 1/2 T.
Total dough weight = 27.54 oz. (780.8 g.)
Thickness Factor (TF) = 0.137

...but again please note, instead of one 16 inch pizza, I used this same recipe above for two thin 13-14 inch pies, so my pizza’s probably look a lot different than the pies earlier in this topic. I cooked the pizza in a kitchen (gas) oven at 550 degrees on a pre-heated pizza stone. I also did not cook the crust without toppings since the crust was pretty thin.

Thanks to all for sharing your info in this topic. Happy Holidays!
Chris


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23561
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #52 on: January 04, 2009, 02:01:06 PM »
Chris,

That's a great looking pizza.

I did some calculations based on the 13"-14" pizza sizes you mentioned. For the 13" size, the thickness factor goes from 0.137 to 0.10073; for the 14" size, the thickness factor goes from 0.137 to 0.08685. The thickness factor of 0.10073 is more along the lines of a NY "street" style; the thickness factor of 0.08685 is more along the NY "elite" style. So, you have a choice of either style from a crust thickness standpoint.

You can use either thickness factor value, along with the same baker's percents in the dough formulation you used, in the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. The tool will give you the ingredients for any size pizza you want. I suggest using a bowl residue compensation value (e.g., 1.5%) in the tool to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation of the dough.

At the time I did the conversion of canadave's recipe to baker's percent format, I was using a spreadsheet and I did conversions of flour and water from weights to volumes using my kitchen scale. The dough calculating tool does a better job than my spreadsheet. To convert weights of flour and water to volumes for any given dough formulation, I recommend that users use November's Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ for those ingredients in the pull-down menu. The measurement method should be the "Textbook" method. That method is defined in Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6576.msg56397/topicseen.html#msg56397.

Thanks for posting. You may have encouraged others who prefer a thinner style to use your modified canadave recipe.

Peter

EDIT (3/4/13): Replaced Calculator link with the current link.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 07:45:00 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline WestCountry

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 151
Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #53 on: January 08, 2009, 09:41:29 AM »
Thanks Peter -

I am going to start using those tools you mention above more. I just got a nice digital scale (MyWeight KD8000 model) that I am starting to use. This scale is a lot of fun, and this will allow me to fine tune and document and evolve my recipes more.

This recipe worked great for a home oven with lower heat range. (up to 550 degrees). I will try this recipe as well with higher heat at some point in the future and see how it comes out there.

Chris

Offline Ray_uk_82

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 4
Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #54 on: January 11, 2009, 10:28:10 AM »
I've just made half a batch of this recipe. I had to hand kneed it as I don't really have a suitable machine, but I followed all the steps as closely as possible. My question is really regarding the prooving of the bread in the fridge; how much increase in size would I be expecting after 24Hours?

This will be the first pizza dough recipe I have used that differs form a generic bread recipe. I have made several pizzas with good results simply using a bread consisting of

250g Strong bread flour
175ml luke-warm water
3.5g fast action yeast (this is approximate as it is half a sachet)
pinch of salt.

Dough usually kneeded for 10 minutes, prooved for an hour in a warm place, (usually doubles in size rougly); knocked back and prooved for a further 20 min.

My concern really is the proportion of yeast to flour in this (canadave's) recipe (it's a lot lower than the bread recipe). If this is due to the longer prooving, and we aren't looking for such an increase in volume then I can sort of understand it. Just concerns me that for nearly double the quantity of flour, I am using no more (and maybe even a little less) yeast.

As I say, the dough is in the fridge now so there's not much I can do. I'd just like to have an idea what to expect rather than waste good toppings on a dough that might not be quite right. For the half recipe I used,

1 Lb flour
1.25 cups water (I used the equivalent 312ml)
1.25 tsp yeast
1tsp salt (I used slightly less)
0.5 tbs sugar
1.5 tbs olive oil.

Any thoughts on what to expect would be appreciated.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23561
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #55 on: January 11, 2009, 12:04:47 PM »
Ray_uk_82,

When I first tried canadave's NY style dough recipe, as described at Reply 33 in this thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2175.msg19801.html#msg19801, I experienced a substantial and clearly noticeable increase in the dough volume while in the refrigerator. You can actually see the degree of dough expansion at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2238.msg19652.html#msg19652. In my case, the dough shown in Reply 3 was after 65 hours of cold fermentation but it rose noticeably even before that. canadave noted at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2238.msg19660.html#msg19660 that my dough behaved normally. What happens in your particular case in terms of dough expansion will be governed by the temperature of the water you used in making the dough, the finished dough temperature, the temperature of your refrigerator compartment, and whether you allowed the dough to warm up at all before putting it into the refrigerator. In my case, I had all of these factors under good control yet the dough still expanded quickly.

It is typical for a pizza dough, especially one that is to be cold fermented, to use less yeast than a bread dough. It is also common for a pizza dough to have a lower hydration than a bread dough. So, I wouldn't worry about the differences.

You also shouldn't have any problems using hand kneading, provided that it is properly done. I made and reported on a "thin" hand-kneaded version of canadave's recipe at Reply 39 in this thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2175.msg20385.html#msg20385.

Peter

Offline Ray_uk_82

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 4
Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #56 on: January 11, 2009, 01:56:33 PM »
Thanks for your reply. The dough has been in the fridge for about 5 hours and has expanded quite a bit. I'd say it's about twice the size it was or maybe just under, so I am happier that some fermentation is taking place with this quantity of yeast to flour.

When I made the dough the water wasn't cold, but what I would describe as being tepid, roughly how water would feel if left to reach room temperatue (although I appreciate that isn't a very precise description or temperature). I kneeded the dough and put it straight into the fridge. I'll keep and eye on it, and if I think it's necessary, transfer it to a bigger bowl before I go to bed so that it doesn't get stuck to the lid if it looks to still be expanding.

I'm probably going to use some of this dough tomorrow, but I won't need all of it (I appreciate in hindsight I should have seperated the dough prior to putting it in the fridge). Is it best to knock the dough back and divide it; reserving half for the next day in the fridge? or should I attempt to divide it, without knocking back the portion I intend to keep for the following day?

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23561
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #57 on: January 11, 2009, 02:31:05 PM »
Ray_uk_82,

I think it is better to do the division up front for a cold fermented dough that is to be shaped by hand, but in your case it may not really matter whether you knock the dough back or not because of the large amount of yeast. However, I think I would try to gently divide the dough into two pieces, shape them gently into round balls, and put them in separate storage containers.

In re-reading your ingredient quantities, I noted that you used 312 ml (312 grams) of water for 1 1/4 cups. Can you tell me where you got that conversion? Technically, one cup of water weighs 8.345 oz., making 1 1/2 cups weigh 10.43 oz, or 295.74 grams, not 312 grams. At 312 grams of water for a pound of flour, the hydration would be 68.78%. At 295.74 grams, the hydration would be 65.2%. Most people who measure out water volumetrically tend to use a "lighter" cup, typically 8.1-8.2 ounces by weight. In fact, I often use those values in converting water in recipes from volumes to weights.

Peter

Offline WestCountry

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 151
Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #58 on: January 11, 2009, 02:36:53 PM »
I have had good success with this recipe in my kitchen oven (around 550 degrees). Now that I can go higher (I just got a high temperature oven - 2Stone).  I was wondering about the following:

1) How high could I (or should I) push oven temperature for this recipe for BEST results (without making change to recipe)?    (realizing that at high heat the sugar and maybe oil (?) could be an issue.)

Thanks,
Chris


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23561
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #59 on: January 11, 2009, 02:58:31 PM »
Chris,

At about 1.3% sugar, there should not be a problem in a home oven setting. However, it is likely to be a problem at the much higher temperatures of the  2Stone unit. That problem could be solved or at least mitigated by omitting the sugar in the recipe but then you might end up with too little residual sugar in the dough at the time of baking to get decent crust coloration. That is because of the large amount of yeast (almost 0.80%) and its capacity to feed off of the natural sugars released from the starch by the action of enzymes. You might be able to compensate for that effect by using the dough sooner, maybe after a day or two. That is something you may have to do some experimenting with. Or perhaps a member who is using canadave's recipe with a 2Stone unit can answer your questions more definitively.

Peter

Offline Ray_uk_82

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 4
Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #60 on: January 11, 2009, 03:46:59 PM »
The conversion of 1 cup = 312ml was done based on volume;  I was informed that 1 cup=250ml. therefore 1.25*250 ~ 312ml. From your reply I am gathering that I should have dealt with the cup in weight rather than volume. Unfortunately in the UK, a cup is a very rarely used measure (certainly not one I come across often) Any weights in a recipe would normally be in pounds or grams; any liquids would be in ml or fluid ounces. Hence the apparent confusion. What problems is the over-hydrated dough likely to cause?

Offline WestCountry

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 151
Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #61 on: January 11, 2009, 04:04:20 PM »
Thanks Peter for the high-temp feedback above.  That's what I figured. I will experiment with the yeast and sugar ingredients and see if I can work it out.

Chris

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1892
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #62 on: January 11, 2009, 04:34:31 PM »
Can you tell me where you got that conversion? Technically, one cup of water weighs 8.345 oz., making 1 1/2 cups weigh 10.43 oz, or 295.74 grams, not 312 grams.

As you might have already figured out, Peter, a metric cup is 250 mL.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23561
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #63 on: January 11, 2009, 04:54:34 PM »
What problems is the over-hydrated dough likely to cause?

All else being equal, a more highly hydrated dough will ferment faster, and be more extensible and possibly harder to handle when shaping and stretching into a dough base, especially if of large diameter. The dough may also have a tendency to want to stick to a peel or a screen if used to dress the pizza before depositing it into the oven. On the positive side, if the dough has a well developed gluten structure with good gas and moisture retention, and has adequate yeast and sugar at the time of baking, the finished crumb may be more open and airy.

Thank you, and November, for clarifying the metric cup matter.

Peter

Offline Ray_uk_82

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 4
Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #64 on: January 11, 2009, 05:26:01 PM »
All else being equal, a more highly hydrated dough will ferment faster, and be more extensible and possibly harder to handle when shaping and stretching into a dough base, especially if of large diameter. The dough may also have a tendency to want to stick to a peel or a screen if used to dress the pizza before depositing it into the oven. On the positive side, if the dough has a well developed gluten structure with good gas and moisture retention, and has adequate yeast and sugar at the time of baking, the finished crumb may be more open and airy.

Thank you, and November, for clarifying the metric cup matter.

Peter

Ok. Thankfully the dough didn't strike me as being too difficult to handle at the time of putting it in the fridge. I'm used to using bread dough that has a distinct tendancy to not want to be stretched into a round, so hopefully this dough may be a little more co-operative. I'm sure i'll be able to make a serviceable pizza from this batch; hopefully It will in some way be different to the previous ones I have made.

I've also got a batch (enough for one 8" pizza) of bread dough that has been in the fridge for about 3 days. Is there any use for this as some sort of pre-ferment, or is it likely to be exhausted?

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23561
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #65 on: January 11, 2009, 06:12:36 PM »
I've also got a batch (enough for one 8" pizza) of bread dough that has been in the fridge for about 3 days. Is there any use for this as some sort of pre-ferment, or is it likely to be exhausted?

Usually a prefermented dough (aka "old dough" or chef) that has been cold fermented is used after about 18-20 hours and maybe a bit longer. So, three days of cold fermentation may be too long and produce a dough that is low in residual sugar. Yeast levels may also be low. However, the dough should contain a lot of fermentation byproducts that can be used to add flavor and aromas and to improve the texture of a crust made using the next generation dough into which the prefermented dough is incorporated. In such a case, you will perhaps not want to exceed about 15-25% of the final dough as prefermented dough (scrap). You will also want to adjust the yeast levels in the final dough. Since the prefermented dough includes salt, the salt level of the final dough will also need adjustment.

Peter

Offline areacode514

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3
Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #66 on: January 16, 2009, 12:34:31 AM »
One of the nice things about the dough for a 16-inch is that it just right for making two 12-inch pizzas. That way, you can make them both different.

Hello!

I am extremely happy to have found this forum and this recipe.  I've prepared the dough and will be very much looking forward to baking the pizza in a couple of days.

I have some newbie questions (and apologies if they have been asked and answered already in other threads).

1) What would be the best way of splitting up the dough into two balls in order to make 12-inch pizzas? 

Should I cut the dough using a knife?  Or should I try to slowly twist it into two halves (as if making sausages)?

I read so much about the gluten strands being important, so I presume that cutting would have some negative impact, if minimal.  But I guess I'm just curious to know if use of a knife is ever part of the equation when making dough.

2) Do I presume correctly that the best time to split the dough is immediately after the dough has been prepared (as opposed to after the dough has been sitting in the fridge for X days)? 

My thinking is that, [based on Canadave's original recipe, where he divides into two equal balls (that will make 16-inch pizzas) and lets them ferment in separate containers in the fridge], for me to make 12-inch pizzas, I should divide into four equal balls and let these ferment in separate containers.

3) Do I conclude correctly that any manipulation after fermentation should be kept to a minimum (i.e. just what is necessary to shape the dough flat)?


Perhaps in writing all of the above, I've actually answered my own questions.  In that case, any feedback confirming (or refuting) this would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

areacode514


Offline Pizza_Not_War

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 388
  • Location: Portland OR
Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #67 on: January 16, 2009, 01:44:26 AM »
1) What would be the best way of splitting up the dough into two balls in order to make 12-inch pizzas? 

Should I cut the dough using a knife?  Or should I try to slowly twist it into two halves (as if making sausages)?

I read so much about the gluten strands being important, so I presume that cutting would have some negative impact, if minimal.  But I guess I'm just curious to know if use of a knife is ever part of the equation when making dough.

2) Do I presume correctly that the best time to split the dough is immediately after the dough has been prepared (as opposed to after the dough has been sitting in the fridge for X days)? 

My thinking is that, [based on Canadave's original recipe, where he divides into two equal balls (that will make 16-inch pizzas) and lets them ferment in separate containers in the fridge], for me to make 12-inch pizzas, I should divide into four equal balls and let these ferment in separate containers.

3) Do I conclude correctly that any manipulation after fermentation should be kept to a minimum (i.e. just what is necessary to shape the dough flat)?
Easiest tool for cutting dough is pictured below. Buy one as it is easier to use than a knife and as you get into other forms of baking you will find it invaluable. Also use to scrape dough off a board or counter.

You will find that most recipes will call for a bulk rise and then splitting dough into balls for a second rise. I personally use a 20 hour room temp bulk rise and then portion to dough balls for an additional 4 hours or so.

Your item #3 is correct in that you don't want to play around with the dough that has risen and ruin the party. If you over handle the dough you might wind up with a flat hockey puck of a pizza, no fun at all unless you need a spare puck for your hockey game.

PNW

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23561
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #68 on: January 16, 2009, 07:45:48 AM »
areacode514,

I agree with everything PNW said. And, yes, if you used canadave's original recipe with two pounds of flour, that would be enough to make two 16" pizzas or four 12" pizzas.

Peter

Offline areacode514

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3
Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #69 on: January 16, 2009, 11:13:46 PM »
Thanks for your input.

Just to make sure I don't misunderstand, when exactly is the "bulk rise" and "second rise" occurring in Canadave's recipe? 
Is the bulk rise happening during the 24-48 hour fridge period, and the second rise happening when the tin is taken out of the fridge and left on the countertop at room temperature for 1-2 hours?

Regards,

areacode514

Offline Pizza_Not_War

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 388
  • Location: Portland OR
Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #70 on: January 16, 2009, 11:28:50 PM »
514

I just now looked at the recipe, it appears from this "4. Remove dough from mixer and divide into two equal balls." that he does not use a bulk rise at all. A bulk rise would be if he left all the dough as one batch and then split it into 2 pieces at a later time after some fermentation.

PNW

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23561
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #71 on: January 17, 2009, 05:59:16 AM »
areacode514,

These days, cold fermented dough is invariably divided up front rather than after fermentation. It is just the easier and better way to do it, with less handling and shaping of the dough. Bulk rising of dough with later division is more common with room temperature fermented dough (e.g., Neapolitan style) or where the dough balls are to be run through a roller or sheeter.

Peter

Offline NewYorkMinute

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 4
Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #72 on: January 25, 2009, 11:26:44 PM »
Dave,

This looks like an old thread. I like your recipe and will try it out with your twists -- it looks similar to what I'm now doing but interesting enough to try out soon, which for me will probably be in a day or two. Every time I say I need a break from making pizzas I find myself right back at it! I have made the street NY pizza that is my favorite but made the mistake of making it a little extra crunchy, something I really hate! If you or anybody has more ideas on NY-style pizza please let me know. Best Regards all....


Quote
Hi all,

It's been a while since I've posted to the forum, but Peter talked me into posting my latest version of my NY style recipe.  It's based on lots of what I've learned here, and also based on member varasano's recipe as well

I'm a long-time native New Yorker, so rest assured that the observations I make in the article about NY pizza are authentic, not just what I read out of a book somewhere :)

Also, my page has a detailed introduction to New York pizza, as well as detailed step-by-step instructions for some of the more difficult steps in the recipe (like stretching dough with your hands).  Just about every step has an explanation as to why it's done that way and not some other way.  At the end is a "quick recipe" for people who just want to "cut to the chase" and get the recipe and directions with no explanations.


INTRODUCTION
===========

True New York City pizza is a special experience, a concoction that is often imitated but rarely gotten right. There are lots of recipes on the Internet that claim to produce a “New York-Style Pizza,” but mostly these come nowhere close to resembling an actual New York pizza (for a variety of reasons).

There are really two types of authentic New York pizzas; I like to call them “street” pizzas and “elite” pizzas. A “street” pizza is typical of the myriad pizzerias that exist throughout New York (epitomized by the ubiquitous-yet-all-unrelated “Ray’s” which sit on seemingly every other street corner), where you can walk in and order inexpensive individual slices to stay or to go. These pizzas are characterized by a flexible, foldable crust that’s anywhere from ¼-to-½ inch thick; tomato sauce with some light spices; and a relatively thick layer of mozzarella cheese, cooked in a standard gas-fired commercial pizza oven.

“Elite” pizzas in New York can be found at only a handful of famous pizzeria restaurants that have been in existence for decades. At these legendary establishments, individual “pizza masters” have passed along a tradition of high-quality pizza. Lombardi’s, Patsy’s, John’s, Totonno’s, and Grimaldi’s are examples of these pizzerias (Lombardi’s, which opened in 1905, was the first pizzeria in the United States). An elite pizza is generally more expensive, and can only be bought as whole pies, rather than individual slices (the pie itself is cut into slices of course). The pizzas themselves are usually slightly thinner and crispier; use a higher-quality cheese such as fresh mozzarella or bocconcino, placed sparingly on the pizza; feature very lightly-spiced sauces made from quality fresh San Marzano tomatoes; and—most importantly—are cooked in ovens that are either wood-fired or coal-fired to achieve extremely high baking temperatures (700 to 800 degrees), resulting in a dark brown or black char to the crust that is extraordinarily delicious.

Which type of pizza is better? Although elite pizzas are almost always superb, there are many street pizzas that taste just as good, if not superior. In fact, a common New York pastime is arguing about which local neighbourhood pizzeria is the best. Conversely, I have tasted a few elite pizzas that were substandard. Yet some street pizzas are so bad that they barely qualify as pizza. Suffice to say, there are great examples out there of both elite and street pizza....


Offline Mikro-Midas

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6
Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #73 on: June 30, 2009, 08:24:30 PM »
I think I'll have Canadaves recipe a try, but I have some questions.

1) Is an 20 minute autolyse really necessary? Does it make any difference from 5 min.?
2) I find the 4-6 days of rising far longer than anything I've ever read. Have anyone other than Canadave tried the same recipe (this or an other) with and without the long rise, to taste for a difference?
3) Why is the pizza precooked? To make it easier to handle or because it's supposed to taste better?
4) Wouldn't the oven get cold, when it is opened three times instead of one? Should you wait some time to get the oven hot again before the second bake?
5) The trick with opening the door (dus letting warm air out, but leaving the stone hot) to trick the oven to heat up the stone some more, how is that done? How long should you open the door and how long should you close it again, before opening again (when the oven is hot again) ... etc ...
6) Is there an advantage in putting the oil in as the last ingredient to the dough, as many mentions (but this recipe doesn't), or is that a sort of question no-one manage to agree on?

A lot of questions; thanks to anyone who could answer some of them!  :)
But I think I'll start at once anyway  :chef:

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23561
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
« Reply #74 on: June 30, 2009, 09:15:37 PM »
Mikro-Midas,

I will attempt to answer your questions, using your paragraph numbering system.

1. What Canadave uses is not technically an autolyse, because it includes the yeast during the rest period, but since cold water is also used, the rest period is quite close to an autolyse rest period. A twenty minute rest period is quite common but five minutes might be too short if you are making the full amount of dough for two pizzas. A rest period of 10-15 minutes might be sufficient.

2. A 4-6 day cold fermentation period is not usual but it is not rare either. It is somewhat unusual, however, for a dough with the high yeast level (0.78% IDY) of Canadave's dough formulation. If you go back and read the rest of the thread, you will see that I made a "thinner" version of Canadave's pizza and used less than 4-6 days of cold fermentation, specifically, about 70 hours. Because of the high yeast level of Canadave's dough, I believe that Canadave's dough can be used within shorter time periods, perhaps as short as one day. However, I did not personally try a much shorter period. Many of our members, me included, have made and used doughs successfully after more than two weeks of cold fermentation, but not using Canadave's recipe to the best of my knowledge. Special measures, not material here, have to be used to achieve such long fermentation periods.

3. I can't speak for Canadave as to why he pre-bakes his crust, but it is a fairly common technique, one that is often used in order to get a greater height an a more open and airy characteristic in the finished crust. This is made possible not only because of the high yeast content and high hydration of Canadave's dough but also because there is no weight of sauce, cheese and toppings to restrict the expansion of the dough during the pre-bake.

4. Opening the oven door will allow some oven heat to escape, but there should still be significant retention of heat by the pizza stone. However, it won't hurt to let the oven warm up again before finishing baking the pizza with the sauce, cheeses and toppings. In fact, the oven may regain its temperature while the pre-baked crust is being dressed.

5. With my electric oven, a light goes on whenever the bottom coil goes on. If I open the door to get the bottom coil to go on, the light goes on as soon as the coil goes on.

6. There are some people who feel that adding the oil earlier in the dough making process impedes hydration of the flour. Others feel that adding the oil earlier in the dough making process allows for more uniform dispersion of the oil throughout the dough. I have used both methods in a home setting and have not detected any significant differences. However, if you are hand kneading, it is more difficult to incorporate oil into an existing dough than if you are using a stand mixer.

Peter



 

pizzapan