Author Topic: Gluten development issues.  (Read 1161 times)

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Online mkevenson

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Gluten development issues.
« on: October 28, 2012, 10:18:45 AM »
Just thought that I would throw this out cause it has been an issue I have had with my dough and thought others might benefit.

The issue is that for the last few months of making pizza dough, every time, or nearly, I stretch my dough it is flimsy and does not cooperate like the pics I have seen in numerous videos.

Responses from members here to this question, (problem), thank you, have led me to believe that my dough has not developed it's gluten sufficiently to allow "normal" stretching, heaven forbid tossing, without the dough tearing, or just falling apart.

The obvious solution, to my mind, is to get more gluten development.

The problem, is how?

I understand that there are 2 basic ways of incorporating fluid,(hydration), into the flour. Machine mixing, with a dough hook or other various style paddles, and hand mixing. Both of these being done in a bowl.
I have asked previously if hand mixing and kneading would work, answers were positive.
I have read, however, that no hand mixing/kneading will accomplished the task as well as a power mixer:
"The Art of Pizza Making", trade secrets and recipes, by Dominic De Angelis, 20th anniversary edition,
Pg 34: KNEADING BY HAND, " The basic fact is that dough kneading by hand will never match the tenderness, texture and consistency of dough kneaded with a mixing machine."

Now I am old enough to realize that you can probably find an opinion on anything, written somewhere, about anything, and that you will find conflicting opinions published by "knowledgeable" authors on every subject.

Be that as it may, for a rookie trying to develope a new skill, well we will see........

Another confusion, (perhaps only to me), is the idea that I have read here, regarding over kneading.

 So at any rate I have decided to try to accomplish the original goal of gluten development, without regard for "over kneading", and to do it by hand. I figure that if I can get good gluten development, so that I can handle my dough reasonably well, I can focus on "over kneading as a second step.

The results so far have been encouraging. Although a small sampling, with my last dough, I was able to handle, stretch and form a pie without difficulty. I have another dough in cold ferment mode now and will see if I have some consistency with the gluten development issues.

All is not perfect, and may take a long time, but this is what I love, a challenge, a problem solving adventure, and one I can EAT as a result.

Happy Sunday!!!!!!! GO GIANTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mark
« Last Edit: October 28, 2012, 10:22:18 AM by mkevenson »
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Offline sb 44 champs

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Re: Gluten development issues.
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2012, 11:13:30 AM »
I'm with you on this subject. I'm a newbie at pizza making and I've had mixed success with being able to stretch my dough without it re-coiling. What I've been doing is cold fermenting my dough for 24-48 hrs. Then taking out 2-3 hrs before cooking. I knead the dough ball for 5 min or so by hand then work from the inside out. There are times when the dough does not stretch so I let it rest then start again. It seems when I work the dough for a few minutes then let it rest and start again, it helps. Sometimes this does no good. Part of my problem is I try different recipes in an attempt to get the type of dough I am looking for. That is a thin-med crust that is crunch on the underside and with a rim that is soft, airy and chewy. Haven't found the perfect crust yet.
Today I will be making a version of a new york pizza that has been in the fridge for 24 hrs.
I'm hoping it turns out the way I want.

Anyways, I enjoy experminting and searching for the perfect dough. I know this isn't the ans you are looking for and my attempts have been hit and miss. But all have been edible, so that's good.

Sorry, but go SAINTS!

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Gluten development issues.
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2012, 11:34:26 AM »
Even though you are a Giants fan, I will respond ;)

Gluten development may only be the mechanism to your goals, but others may be gluten quality and hydration levels. What flour are you using? The quote from the book you referenced is, in my opinion, too generalized because flour type and absorption levels are not taken into account. As well as many other indicating flour specs. So you can easily make the right flour produce a tender product by hand, while another flour will require machine mixing to extract tenderness.

John

Online Aimless Ryan

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Re: Gluten development issues.
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2012, 11:37:48 AM »
What I've been doing is cold fermenting my dough for 24-48 hrs. Then taking out 2-3 hrs before cooking. I knead the dough ball for 5 min or so by hand then work from the inside out.

That's your problem; don't do that. If you're making NY style, just do this:

  • Mix the dough (undermix it if you intend to refrigerate for over 24 hours).
  • Then immediately divide and round the dough into dough balls.
  • Then immediately refrigerate.
  • Let the dough ball warm up at room temperature for an hour or two before you intend to bake.

Do not knead or agitate the dough ball at any time after you've formed it. That means don't reball. Doing that is what makes your dough overly elastic.

If you follow these easy tips, you should no longer have any of the problems you've expressed here.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2012, 11:39:20 AM by AimlessRyan »

Online mkevenson

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Re: Gluten development issues.
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2012, 06:42:28 PM »
SB 44 champs, Ryan wrote exactly what I was going to write. Don't re knead after fermentation. I was told that also by someone here. It has also helped maintain the form of the dough prior to stretching, assuming you are using a fermenting container that is a similar form to the round pizza, yet smaller of course. I was using a 1 gal zip lock type bag and changed to a metal container designed for dough fermentation, seems to work pretty well.

This is fun, even tho we have a long road to travel.

Mark
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Online mkevenson

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Re: Gluten development issues.
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2012, 06:50:42 PM »
Even though you are a Giants fan, I will respond ;)

Gluten development may only be the mechanism to your goals, but others may be gluten quality and hydration levels. What flour are you using? The quote from the book you referenced is, in my opinion, too generalized because flour type and absorption levels are not taken into account. As well as many other indicating flour specs. So you can easily make the right flour produce a tender product by hand, while another flour will require machine mixing to extract tenderness.

John

John, I am currently using KAAP. Previously KABF, and prior,to that other bread flours and even tried KA perfect pizza flour.Also have used Caputo 00,red bag, but will wait to use again till I get a higher heat oven.
Last 2 doughs were 60 & 62% hydration.
Last 2 doughs I have hand kneaded for 7 min,and have had relative success in dough stretching without producing holes.

Thank's for your reply, don't like the Giants? Is that based on Barry?

Mark
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Offline sb 44 champs

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Re: Gluten development issues.
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2012, 06:53:28 PM »
I've tried different methods and sometimes I can get the dough to stretch and other times it's difficult. So I wanted to try kneading after fermentation.  As for as containers, I used a tupperware plastic container with a lid. It's not anything designed for dough fermentation. It seems to work well-not sure if that had anything to do with it.
Next time, I will divide the dough into dough balls prior to going in the fridge. Haven't done that yet. I've always split my dough after I pull from the fridge.
Not sure if that has anything to do with it or not.

Offline pythonic

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Re: Gluten development issues.
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2012, 06:06:11 PM »
You can reball the dough but only if it needs it.  After reball put back into fridge for at least 12hrs.  Reballing will definitely give you better oven spring though.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Online mkevenson

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Re: Gluten development issues.
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2012, 06:42:02 PM »
You can reball the dough but only if it needs it.  After reball put back into fridge for at least 12hrs.  Reballing will definitely give you better oven spring though.

AH, oven spring! Now lets see , hotter oven, higher hydration, and re-balling all get you better oven spring. I love learning new stuff. I wonder how many more variables?????? ???

Mark
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Gluten development issues.
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2012, 06:50:27 PM »
AH, oven spring! Now lets see , hotter oven, higher hydration, and re-balling all get you better oven spring. I love learning new stuff. I wonder how many more variables?????? ???


Mark,

Check out Reply 515 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg104559/topicseen.html#msg104559.

Peter


Offline pythonic

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Re: Gluten development issues.
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2012, 07:10:35 PM »
AH, oven spring! Now lets see , hotter oven, higher hydration, and re-balling all get you better oven spring. I love learning new stuff. I wonder how many more variables?????? ???

Mark

Mark,

Typically you will need to reball with higher hydration doughs that are cold fermented for 48 hours.  Expect a much improved crust.  For more info on reballing search for threads under the user Fazarri and reballing.

Nate
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Online mkevenson

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Re: Gluten development issues.
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2012, 07:30:56 PM »
Thanks Nate.
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Online mkevenson

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Re: Gluten development issues.
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2012, 07:48:56 PM »
Mark,

Check out Reply 515 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg104559/topicseen.html#msg104559.

Peter


Peter, well I guess "KISS", is out of the question :-D

Thanks for the reference, I will add it to my pizza library, which is growing exponentially.

Mark
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Offline bfguilford

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Re: Gluten development issues.
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2012, 10:43:51 AM »
Peter, well I guess "KISS", is out of the question :-D

LOL... As I learned pretty quickly, if you're looking for KISS, you probably need to ask a different question (or try a different forum) ;D.

Barry
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