Author Topic: Pizza Dough - Autolyse  (Read 2776 times)

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Offline sb 44 champs

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Pizza Dough - Autolyse
« on: October 31, 2012, 09:32:33 PM »
I've been reading Jeff Varasano's web site about his method. Kinda intrigued so I figured I would give it a try.
Used the pizza dough calcaulation tool and here's what I settled on.

2- 13" pizza's
GM Better for bread flour (100%) 383.63 g / 13.53 oz
Water-Spring (65%)                    249.36 g / 8.8 oz
IDY (.25%)                                 .96 g / .03 oz / .32 tsp
Salt (1.5%)                                 5.75 g / .2 oz / 1.03 tsp
Total (166.75%)                          639.7 g / 22.56 oz / 1.41 lbs
TF  .085

Actual dough wgt 612g

I did not use a Poolish.
I followed Varasano's instructions and used 75% of the flour, all water and the IDY. Added to the bowl of my stand mixer and mixed with the paddle attachment for 2 minutes on speed 1. Covered and let it rest for 20 min.
I switched to the dough hook, mixed on speed 1 for 6 minutes. I started adding the rest of the flour until I felt the dough was starting to come together. I did not add all of the remaining dough and I forgot to weigh the left overs. I probably added 1/2-3/4 of the remaining dough.
After 8 min I increased the speed to #3 and continued for another 2 minutes. At this time, the dough had formed somewhat into a ball. I checked the dough temp at this point and it registered 74.3*. A little low so I will need to adjust my water temp next time.
I let the dough rest for 15 minutes then transferred to a floured work surface. I formed two 306 g balls. I lightly oiled the inside of two 5 cup Glade bowls with a hole punched in the center of the lid.
Placed a ball in each and let rest for 10 min then placed into the fridge.
Varasano says you can leave the balls in the fridge up to 6 days. At this point, I'm not sure when I will cook these. I may use one on Friday night and the other Sunday for lunch.
When I added the 75% flour, water and IDY to the bowl and mixed for 2 minutes, I was somewhat surprised that the dough wasn't all that wet. It was sticky but not overly wet. After the 20 minute rest, the dough became a bit wetter but not like pancake batter, which is what I was expecting.
My impression of the finished dough was very smooth and soft and sticky.
Here's pictures of each dough ball.


Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizza Dough - Autolyse
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2012, 07:32:43 AM »
I have always wanted to try BFB flour.

At 18 minutes total of mixing time, I would not wait too long to bake this dough. Although Varasano says you can leave it for 6 days, even with the flour you are using, that amount of mixing will nearly guarantee over fermentation. It will be interesting to see your results.

John

Offline sb 44 champs

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Re: Pizza Dough - Autolyse
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2012, 08:27:36 AM »
I have always wanted to try BFB flour.

At 18 minutes total of mixing time, I would not wait too long to bake this dough. Although Varasano says you can leave it for 6 days, even with the flour you are using, that amount of mixing will nearly guarantee over fermentation. It will be interesting to see your results.

John
I don't have access to alot of different types of flour so I'm limited. Wally World used to carry KABF but they discontinued it. They do have KAAP. I figured I would give the GM a try since it was about a $1.50 cheaper than the KAAP.
Maybe I mis quoted but I only mixed for 10 min. May have actually been 8-9 min but was definitely not 18 min.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Dough - Autolyse
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2012, 09:34:46 AM »
Eddie,

I agree with John that you may have a problem getting the dough to hold out for six days of cold fermentation.

First, your dough formulation has most of the earmarks of a classic NY style dough formulation--going back to the early days of the evolution of the NY style but using dry yeast instead of fresh yeast and a cold fermentation rather than one at room temperature.

Second, at 65% hydration, that is about 5% higher than the rated absorption of the BforB flour. However, your dough preparation methods appear to have overcome the stickiness problem that often accompanies using a hydration value significantly in excess of its rated absorption value. But, the higher hydration value will usually translate into a faster fermentation that can foreshorten the window of usability of the dough.

Third, you did not technically subject the dough to a classic autolyse because all of the ingredients, and especially the yeast and the salt, were all combined together. Moreover, I calculated that it took you about 63 minutes to make the dough, and perhaps a bit more when you add in the brief periods of time between the different steps. During the time that the yeast is in the dough, but before being refrigerated, the dough will start to ferment and, in your case, will continue to ferment for the 63 minute duration mentioned above. That fermentation will further shorten the window of usability of the dough. In short, unless you have an exceptionally cold refrigerator, you may not get out to six days. I think I would shoot for three days, or possibly four if after three days the dough is still firm to the touch and there is not exceptional bubbling formed in the dough at the sides and bottom of the storage container.

Please let us know how things turn out.

Peter

Offline sb 44 champs

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Re: Pizza Dough - Autolyse
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2012, 10:49:20 AM »
Thanks for the info Peter.
Never thought making pizza dough would be so complicated.

I read various articles on line about autolyse and just about every one said you can add the yeast with the water and dough. I did read one that said to add it after the 20 minute rest but for the most part the articles said there would be no issues with adding together.
I'll see how this one goes and will adjust on the next try.

I'll also take pictures of the progress of the dough when I get home tonight. As for as the fridge temp, it normally stays around 40* but it will vary due to opening of the fridge.

When I make pizza dough, I usually shoot for 63% hydration but wanted to try a bit higher to see the difference in the dough. This is the first time I have tried Autolyse so I was not sure what to expect. In reading the various articles, I was expecting a really wet dough but it was anything but that. When I removed the dough from my mixer bowl, it was very sticky. I added a bit of flour and it solved the stickiness issue.

Also, being a newbie, i really do not know differences between the different types of pizza, as for as the % of ingredients. I have read alot on this site and about the thicknesses of the different types of pizza. I'm trying different types to see what I really want. I do know I like a crispy under crust and a soft, chewy rim so that's what I am trying to achieve.
I'm also trying to achieve a dough that is easy to stretch as I've had some issues previously with my dough re-coiling (not sure if that is the correct word or not). It seems like the higher hydration dough seems to stretch better for me.

I really like the Neopolitan pizza styles but don't have the necessary oven or 00 flour so I try and make due with what I have.

Thanks again for all the info on this topic and all others.
Eddie

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Dough - Autolyse
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2012, 11:52:05 AM »
Never thought making pizza dough would be so complicated.

Eddie,

The way that I like to look at it is that there is a "window" that starts when the dough is made and either left at room temperature or put into the refrigerator, and maybe even a combination of both of these methods of fermentation, and ends when the dough is used to make a pizza. How fast the fermentation proceeds during that window depends mostly on the amount of yeast used (irrespective of its type and including natural leavening agents) and the temperature of the dough as it ferments. There are other factors, such as the amount of salt and the hydration value, but the main drivers are yeast quantity and dough temperatures, especially when the other ingredients, like salt, are used in normal amounts. Over time, with practice and experimentation, most people are able to determine how much yeast to use and what method of fermentation gives them the results they are after. My advice to newbies is to start with one recipe and master it, and not jump around from recipe to recipe, which I think far too often leads to confusion and doesn't facilitate the learning process. I often refer to the process as "saturation learning". Each type of recipe has its own "window", but once you understand the concepts mentioned above, each new recipe becomes easier to execute.

Peter

Offline sb 44 champs

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Re: Pizza Dough - Autolyse
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2012, 12:09:49 PM »
Thanks again Peter.
It does seem like the more I read, the more confused I get. I also agree that I need to master a particular dough. Problem is the dough's I've made lack the flavor I want. I guess that's why I jump around and try different recipes.

Have a quick question.
The dough in this thread was made last night. I am going out of town Sat am and will not be back until Sunday around noon.
I can cook the pizza's tomorrow evening. Would it be ok to remove the dough from the fridge around 1230 pm tomorrow and cook around 6pm? that would give a large room temp rise and i'm afraid it will be too much.
Could I take the balls and just freeze them without harm?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Dough - Autolyse
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2012, 12:26:50 PM »
Have a quick question.
The dough in this thread was made last night. I am going out of town Sat am and will not be back until Sunday around noon.
I can cook the pizza's tomorrow evening. Would it be ok to remove the dough from the fridge around 1230 pm tomorrow and cook around 6pm? that would give a large room temp rise and i'm afraid it will be too much.
Could I take the balls and just freeze them without harm?

Eddie,

If your refrigerator is on the cold side and you put the dough ball near the back of the refrigerator compartment where it is cooler, the dough might make it out to noon on Sunday. It is also possible to do as you suggested and remove the dough from the refrigerator around noon tomorrow and let the dough warm up. However, in your case, 5 1/2 hours of tempering might be too long, especially if your kitchen is on the warm side. But I think you should be OK if you temper the dough for about 3-4 hours.

You can also freeze the dough, even after it has fermented. Usually, it is best to use more yeast at the outset, because freezing kills some of the yeast, but I have found that dough balls frozen because there was no other option can still perform reasonably well so long as they are not kept frozen for more than a few days.

Peter

Offline sb 44 champs

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Re: Pizza Dough - Autolyse
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2012, 06:59:03 PM »
Here's two pictures from 530, not quite 24 hrs. Very little rise. Not much activity.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Dough - Autolyse
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2012, 07:11:46 PM »
Eddie,

What you show in the photos is not unusual for a dough with 0.25% IDY after 24 hours.

Peter


Offline sb 44 champs

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Re: Pizza Dough - Autolyse
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2012, 07:23:43 PM »
Thanks Peter. I was kinda hoping that was the case.
I think I will pull one tomorrow at noon and cook for dinner. The other one will freeze and cook next week.

Offline sb 44 champs

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Re: Pizza Dough - Autolyse
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2012, 05:16:04 PM »
This dough ball has been sitting on the counter for 3.5 hrs. It spread out some but there is a bubble on the surface.
Isn't this a bad sign? the dough smells amazing.
Either way, gonna shoot for a 530-6pm cook, which is 2-2.5 hrs away.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Dough - Autolyse
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2012, 05:24:23 PM »
This dough ball has been sitting on the counter for 3.5 hrs. It spread out some but there is a bubble on the surface.
Isn't this a bad sign? the dough smells amazing.
Either way, gonna shoot for a 530-6pm cook, which is 2-2.5 hrs away.

Eddie,

If the dough around the bubble is still on the firm side, and not soft and billowy, that bubble won't hurt anything. I usually pinch such bubbles shut.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Dough - Autolyse
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2012, 05:34:51 PM »
Eddie,

If you want to see bubbles, check out Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2238.msg19652.html#msg19652. That dough ball was used to make the pizza shown at Reply 33 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2175.msg19801.html#msg19801.

Peter

Offline sb 44 champs

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Re: Pizza Dough - Autolyse
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2012, 05:37:43 PM »
Peter,
The dough is still very firm. I'll pinch it down.
Thanks for the info.
Eddie

Offline sb 44 champs

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Re: Pizza Dough - Autolyse
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2012, 05:47:01 PM »
Wow, that's some major bubbles. Very nice looking pie.
I've seen Canadave's recipe and will need to give it a try.
I find myself going back to Neapolitan style pizza's but just don't have the oven for it.
I ate at a pizza place in Nola called Dominica. They have the best Margherita pizza. They have a wood fired oven. Cooks in 90 sec. Want to try another pizza place that has a wood fired oven called Louisiana Pizza Kitchen.


Offline pythonic

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Re: Pizza Dough - Autolyse
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2012, 05:56:39 PM »
Eddie,

Can't wait to see some pics of how it turns out. Let us know what you think and how it compares to others u have made.  I have some BFBF that I've been meaning to use up and may have to give this formulation a go.

Nate
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline sb 44 champs

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Re: Pizza Dough - Autolyse
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2012, 08:55:41 PM »
Wasn't meant to be. Had the dough stretched and getting ready to top the pizza when my grand daughter came over with her mom. At this time, the dough was on my baking mat/sheet or whatever you call it that was dusted with flour for about 3 min. They came to the table where I had everything laid out and my GD (2.5 yrs old) grabbed the dough and tore it. Now I had a delima. I re-balled it and let it rest for 10 min. Could not get it to stretch. So instead of tossing it in the trash, I stretched it as best I could and put it on my cast iron pizza pan plain.
Took it out at 8 min and just cut it up. Wanted to see how it tasted.

Here's my thoughts.
My dough ball was slightly smaller than what Varasano noted on this site. It was supposed to stretch to 13". Before the accident, I could only get it to 11". I suppose I will have to maybe shoot for 15" and then I may be able to stretch it to 13" or so. It stretched easily with little re-coil. The middle was very thin and had a slight rim. Not as much of one as I would have liked. The middle was so thin that I could see through it. But it did not break.
Taste: definite improvement over previous pies. Probably would have been much better had I been able to cold ferment it for 3 days. The other dough ball I made was placed in a lightly oiled zip lock bag and into the freezer. I'm going out of town in the am so I may try and bake it Sunday night.
For me, this is a definite do again recipe only I want to cold ferment it for 3 days. The autolyse definitely gave the dough more flavor, which amazes me since it rested for 20 min.
Sorry no pics due to the issues but will take pics on Sunday.
Note to self: need a pizza peel, steel plate, infrared thermometer & pizza oven (i wish). Come on Powerball, Lotto and Mega Millions. Probably have more of a chance finding a sugar momma. LOL.