2 Different Pies, Same Dough (Pics)

[gostillerz]

Hi everyone. I just wanted post some pics of last weekends pies. I made a deep dish and a how do I say..."normal?" one. Kinda like a NY style, but a tad thicker. I love both styles (prefer deep dish), but I wanted to be able to make both styles with one type of dough. Both came out great. I actually prefer the NY with this dough than the stuff from other places around here. The deep dish has hot sausage instead of sweet, and the thinner one has hot sausage and hot peppers on it. I had to make two kinds of sauce though. To me, deep dish has to have a ton of chunky tomatoes (canned tomatoes, crushed). On the NY, was just a recipe I've been tinkering with, but both had the cheese on first. It's the only way to have a good tasting reheated pie in my opinion. Let me know what yinz think.

[chiguy]

 Hi Gostillerz,
 I commend you for you're attempt at the impossible. I must say that you're pizza came out lookin pretty good. There are just too many differences in ingrediant's between N.Y. and Deep Dish Chicago style to achieve this with accuracy. The flour,Oil, water,and mixing times are especially different. I am curious what type of Flour you used as well as you're recipe. Which pizza would you say came out better?    Thanks, Chiguy

[Pete-zza]

I personally like to use different dough formulations for different pizza styles but it is quite common among pizza operators to use the same dough for all kinds of pizza and pizza-related products. I read of one pizza operator who said that he used the same dough for all of his pizzas, calzones, sub rolls, garlic bread, croutons and even bread crumbs. Tom Lehmann, in his seminars, also shows participants how to use the same dough to make thin style, pan and stuffed pizzas. The scaling of the dough weight may have to be changed depending on the style of pizza to be made (e.g., more dough is used for the deep-dish or pan styles), and pan and deep-dish doughs may need proofing before baking (to allow the dough to expand before dressing and baking), and bake times may have to be adjusted, but the doughs are identical.

Peter

[chiguy]

 Hi peter,
 I am also aware of this practice. I was told bread flour is an excellent go between flour in which i fully agree. I would say that you would have a tough time selling this idea on a die hard N.Y. pizza maker or a Chicago deep dish maker. I personally would not compromise ingrediants for any reason. I just don't feel the quality is there. Those pizza places that make every kind from one dough, thats the chains.    Chiguy

[Pete-zza]

Chiguy,

I personally am in agreement with you on this one. On the other hand, the only experience I have had with "multi-purpose" dough is using buzz's basic deep-dish dough for both deep-dish and thin pizzas, and that experience turned out very well. To get a better sense of the merits or demerits of using, say, a modified NY style dough to make a deep-dish, or to use a deep-dish dough to make a NY style, I would have to actually give both of those approaches a try and compare the results with what I have learned about each style separately. I suspect I would still come out in favor of using separate recipes, mainly because of the different flours typically used for NY and deep-dish styles (and also the different amounts of oil), but I would have to try both approaches to know for sure the extent of the differences.

Peter

[chiguy]

 Hi Peter
 I will be honest i have never tried this so you're already one step ahead of me. I will say that buzz had the right idea in using All Purpose for both his Deep Dish and Thin crust. The All Purpose flour is apparently what most pizzerias in Chicago use. I though about the difference in N.Y. and Deep Dish/Pan and if were possible to achieve this with any accuracy. The first thing i would do is use a go between flour like Bread flour. then the mixing problem has to be resolved. I thought about starting with ingrediants using bread flour with 60% hydration enough for about 45oz. of finished dough. Place ingrediants in the mixer and run on lowest setting for 1 1/2min until forms a ball. Then cut off and take out half of the dough. Leave the other half in the mixer rest for 20 min using the autolyse procedure, this will be for a N.Y crust. I am aware that adding yeast and salt to the dough in this procedure is not recommended but i have had good results even so.  Now let's get to the other half of the dough, the deep dish. It should be barley mixed and just brought
 together at this time. In a seperate bowl, knead 7-10% oil into the dough being cafeful not to overknead/work the dough. When this is done i would oil the dough ball and cover the bowl.It can then be placed in the refridge. This should give you enough time to start the mixer again for a few minutes to finish the N.Y. dough. When the N.Y. dough is finished oil, cover and place in the refridge. I did not take a dough temp because i think they will be different but still would shoot for a 78-82F finished dough temp.Take out the two doughs the next day. The N.Y. dough  is shaped and prepared on a peel , cooked on a stone at 550F for 7-8min. The Chicago is pannned and cooked at 450F for 35 min.  The main difference is the lack of mixing between the two doughs and the addition of oil for the deep dish. I understand that these may not be standard recipes for either of these pizza styles but it may be a good starting point for a 2in1/go between dough. Let me know what you think and what changes may need to be made to achieve better finished results. Thanks, Chiguy

[buzz]

I've used the same basic deep dish dough formula for both the deep dish and thin crust (IMO it makes an awesome thin crust, very flavorful), but I also really like the very-little-oil, three-rise dough which makes an excellent cracker-style crust. Lately I've been experimenting with the formula of 1 cup of AP with 1 TBS extra light olive oil for a thin crust, letting the bread machine do the kneading job, then rolling it out thin--it really makes a nice pizza!

Lately I've been using only Ceresota flour, which has a slightly higher protein level than regular AP, but not so much as bread flour.

[Pete-zza]

Chiguy,

I applaud your ingenuity, but my view is that if you are going to go to all that effort you may as well select the best individual recipes, that is, one for NY style, one for pan style and one for deep-dish style. Of course, pizza operators don't want to do this. They want a "one dough fits all styles" approach. I don't think they worry so much about the type of flour, amount of oil, etc., so long as their customers eat the pies and don't complain. At the end of the day, they will select what best meets their aesthetic and artisanal sensibilities while maximizing profits (hopefully) and retaining customers.

I am not a pizza operator, but if I were this is how I would handle the situation. I would begin by making the amount of dough I think I will need to meet my planned inventory of each style of pizza over whatever time period I normally use. I would scale the weights of dough balls in accordance with the different styles. For example, I know that for a thin 16-inch NY style, I can use around 21 ounces of dough. I would do a similar scaling for the pan and deep-dish doughs based on the sizes of the pan and deep-dish pizzas I plan to make, although proportionately the dough balls will weigh more than the dough balls used for the NY style because of the greater crust thickness for the pan and deep-dish styles. I would coat all the dough balls with oil, put them in corresponding trays, and cross-stack and down-stack them in the cooler. When ready to make the pizzas, I would take the dough balls out of the cooler and let them warm up for an hour or two. For the NY style, I would shape and stretch the corresponding dough balls to the desired size, and dress and bake them. For the pan and deep-dish styles I would roll out the corresponding dough balls or press them into the pans, cover the pans, and let the skins rise for about an hour or so (or whatever time works best for the individual pizzeria). If I had a proofer, so much the better since I would be able to proof the skins at around 95-100 degrees F and with humidity at around 75-80%. Then I would dress and bake the pizzas in the usual manner.

The only difference between the three styles is the manipulation of the dough, not the recipe. If you change your mind and want to alter the product mix, with a little effort you can resize the dough balls, even at the point where pizzas are to be made. Only the manipulation of the dough will change. Of course, in a home setting, you are in charge and can control the processes as you like. Your approach may cut some steps from making two or three separate dough recipes, and it may well be a good compromise recipe to meet three different styles, but it still entails more work and careful planning and orchestration of events than making only one dough to meet the same overall objective. Knowing me, I would mess us somewhere along the way. I have found that I can do a reasonable job of juggling one ball, but not two or three at a time .

Please let us know if you decide to pursue the agenda you propose, since I am sure we will all learn a lot from your experience.

Peter

[chiguy]

 Hi Peter,
 I thankyou for the feedback. I agree with you as far as seperate dough recipes for a pizza operator. A 50lb bag of flour would only produce about 30 dough ball for each type (60 total). It's not nearly enough for pizza operators,so they might as well make two different batches. As for a home recipe i think a 2in1 dough can be worth while. I have alot of different opinions from family and friends on which type they like better, N.Y. or Chicago deep dish. The only thing is will you be able to get a passing grade on the pizza's from them using a go between(bread) flour? I know i will be able to tell the difference but will they? With the lack of availability of high gluten flour for some people,lack of patience and different family members tastebuds it might be worth a shot attempting. If i have the time and patience myself i will give it a try and report back.  Thanks, Chiguy

[gostillerz]

Hi everyone. The whole point was to make them with less effort. I have a problem trying to decide on Wheaties or Pop Tarts for breakfast in the morning let alone what to have for dinner the next day:) I was just bored that day so I wanted to try something. The deep dish came out excellent. The NY (just called it that because I didn't know what else to compare it to) was good also. It's close to the local places around here, but it had a more flavor. I think a better comparison would have been "sicilian texture, but thinner and foldable". My boo boo (I got the New Yorkers mad at me I bet). I think the difference is how the kneading, cook time/temp etc. is done. The dough recipe was Copykat's Uno, but I can't remember exactly what I did to it. After the first rise, it looked like a deep dish dough, so I divided it and just added some more flour and a little olive oil (I think) to it to make it more like a standard dough for the thinner one. Believe me..I'd much rather do both separate, but sometimes that's just not possible. Once I figure out what I did exactly, (probably have to try it again), I'll post it for yinz. Try it out. I don't run a pizza joint by the way, but I'd like to in a few years after I figure all this stuff out. Thanks for the insight guys.