Pizza crust

[jeancarlo]

I would like to know how to keep pizza crust soft after par-baking it or is it pre-baking it? That's when I first bake the dough and then let it cool to refrigerate and use it for later. How many days can it last in the refrigerator to taste good?

[chiguy]

 Hi jeancarlo,
 Although prebaking crust is not a method that is widely used, there are some who try. I would assume the pizza gets very dry after a few days in the refridgerator than depending on you're method to reheat the crust you will probably loose even more moisture,making for a very hard crust. The addition of oil at about 5% may help in preserving the crust a bit longer and giving a bit more tenderness upon reheating. For myself I would try to freeze a unbaked stretched dough before I would prebake for quality purposes. I have read Tom Leahman(AIB instructor) discuss this. He said freeze the stretched dough by itself, then a few hours after it is frozen, add the sauce and toppings and freeze again. It can last for about 2 weeks in the freezer. I have never tried this myself, so I can not give any detail on the reults of this process. I do think it is worth a try.  Goodluck,  Chiguy

[Pete-zza]

jeancarlo,

Welcome back. I hope that all is going well with your new pizza business in El Grullo.

The terms "pre-bake" and "par-bake" are often used interchangeably but the term I use to describe what you are referring to is "par-bake". From what I have read, and from what Tom Lehmann says, par-baked crusts will hold at room temperature for about 3 days. In the refrigerator, they will last around 5 days. If frozen, you may get a month, but you have to be careful not to get freezer burn. Generally, the par-baked crusts are separated by a sheet of parchment paper, stacked, put into a plastic bag, and closed shut.

Without using chemical additives to keep the crusts soft, some of the major factors that govern the softness of the crusts are the type of flour used (e.g., a lower protein flour rather than a higher protein flour), the hydration level of the dough, and the amount and type of fats and sugars used in the dough. By controlling these factors you will control the softness and tenderness of the crumb and crust.

Peter

[jeancarlo]

I use 5,265 grams of extra fine flour, 1 cup sugar, 1/2 cup active yeast, 4 tablespoons salt, 1 cup extra virgin olive oil and about 8 cups of water or a little more if needed. First I mix dry ingredients then add oil and mix until incorporated, then add water and mix until dough forms. The next thing I do is grease the dough ball and put it in a big plastic bag and then inside the fridge and use it to par-bake as I need for that day. If there's dugh left for the next day I make it into thin and crispy since people here don't like fermentation in flavour. I generally use the par-baked dough in about 5 ays kept refrigerated. I'm I doing something wrong Pete-za

[Pete-zza]

jeancarlo,

Tomorrow I will check out your numbers to see if they are in proper balance and to get a sense of what kind of dough you are making (offhand it looks like a dough for a thin crust). But let me say for now that you may want to change your preparation of the dough. I will lay out tomorrow what I think is the best way for you to do this but the basic sequence might be basically as follows: 1) proof the active dry yeast (ADY) in part of the total water (maybe 2 cups), at a temperature of about 105-115 degrees F), for about 10-15 minutes; 2) put the rest of the water in your mixer bowl, add the salt and sugar and stir to dissolve in the water (or the salt and sugar can be added to the flour); 3) combine the proofed yeast with the rest of the water in the bowl; 4) add the flour to the ingredients in the bowl; 5) mix everything in the bowl until the flour takes up the water (hydration); 6) add the oil and knead until it is taken up into the dough (usually about 1-2 minutes); 7) knead the dough some more until the desired condition of the dough is achieved (which will depend on the type of crust to be produced). The final step will depend on how you plan to use the dough. It can be stored in bulk at room temperature and/or in the cooler to be used the same day or it can be divided, scaled, lightly coated, put in trays, and cross-stacked and down-stacked in the cooler for use the next day (or longer if desired and the formulation permits). I think I will have a better feel for how to proceed once I look at your formulation more closely. I'll do that tomorrow. You might also want to think about switching to instant dry yeast (IDY) since the IDY can be added directly to the flour and will save the proofing step that ADY goes through.

Peter

[chiguy]

 Hello Jeancarlo,
 The mixing sequnce Peter brought up will make a big difference in the finished crust. I suspect that the oil is not being throughly incorporated into the dough. The oil is to be added last!! If you add it too water it sits at the top(no good), if it is added to the dry ingrediants which is you're current procedure, it will soak into flour and cannot be throughly mixed at this point creating inconsistent finished dough. I also wanted to bring up baking temperatures for par-baked crusts. The ideal baking temperature for a par-baked crust is 185F-190F. The time it takes will vary on baking procedure, dough weight and so on.. I was curious why you par-bake the crust ?? Are customers taking the pizza  and finishing them at home?       Chiguy

[Pete-zza]

chiguy,

After taking a quick look at the ingredient quantities and the baker's percents I came up with for the formulation, it's not entirely clear what type of crust he is after. I say this since the hydration is around 35% and reminiscent more of a thin crust, either soft or cracker-type. Since jeancarlo is concerned about softness of the par-baked crusts, I am inclined to think that he is after a soft crust, whatever its thickness.

Since jeancarlo is in Mexico where customers are not accustomed to making their own pizzas, I believe jeancarlo is using the par-baked crusts for convenience, to have them on hand to finish as pizzas are ordered. I estimate the total dough weight for a single batch based on the quantities given by jeancarlo to be around 17 pounds.

Peter

[chiguy]

 Hi Peter,
 I also noticed Jeancarlo's hydration which is alarmingly low. When and if he changes the mixing process i suspect 35% hydro will not be suffecinet to produce even a cracker crust?I also noticed that he is using both weights and volumes to describe his recipe, which will also add to consistency problems for him. I did notice he is trying to achieve a softer crust, so the increase in water will defineltely be needed. If i may ask Jean carlo a question.Have you tried any pizza from the states that you are trying to emulate?? Par baking to save time is ok but he does want to control the initial bake temperature to prevent over baking.        Chiguy

[Pete-zza]

jeancarlo,

I converted the volumes to weights you posted as best I could and this is what I come up with as the baker's percents for your dough formulation:

jeancarlo's Dough Formulation
100%, Flour
3.64%, Sugar
1.72%, Active dry yeast (ADY)
1.27%, Salt
4.25%, Extra virgin olive oil
35.32%, Water

It's not clear to me what kind of dough/crust you are looking for. You expressed concern about achieving and maintaining softness in the crust, but unless you are actually using more water than you indicated, the formulation seems to suggest a dry dough, even with the amount of olive oil you are using. I also wonder what kind of shaping you are using, hand or machine.

There's perhaps little you can do in the way of changing the flour to achieve greater softness since it is appears to already be a low-protein flour. And the amounts of oil and sugar are already contributing to the softness of the dough. So, that pretty much leaves the water as the final component to adjust. But how much water you use will depend on what kind of crust you are trying to achieve and also on the particular absorption rate of your flour. My recollection from your prior posts is that you are using pans to make the par-baked crusts. If that is correct, you can achieve a greater degree of softness by letting the shaped doughs rise in the pans rise for about an hour or so and then par-baking. You have plenty enough yeast to accommodate this. In fact, it is likely that you can reduce the amount of yeast to keep the doughs from rising too much or too fast while they are proofing in the pans but, again, that will depend on what kind of crust you are trying to achieve.

On the assumption that you are trying to achieve a soft crust, I would be inclined to use the sequence of steps set forth in my earlier post. I think that will get you headed in the right direction but you may have to made adjustments based on what you are trying to accomplish. I might also add that you don't need to use all extra virgin olive oil. You can use other oils, either individually or as part of a blend with some olive oil. That will help cut costs a bit.

Peter

[jeancarlo]

Thank you both for the support, I have accomplished success in making a softer dough. All I needed to do was reduce the instant active dry yeast which was what I've been using all the time, sorry for not explaining it correctly Pete-zza. I have also added more oil, doesn't the EVOO gives a better flavour to dough? I just added some more without measuring just to play around with the recipe and I added more water about a cup more. The dough bakes faster so I have to reduce baking time from 3 min to 2 min and 30 secs. Temperature's 505°F. I use the dough to mae traditional american pizza and thin and crispy as well.

[Pete-zza]

jeancarlo,

I'm glad to hear that you are making progress in producing a softer dough.

I estimate that the hydration increased to about 40 percent by adding another cup or so of water to your mix. You might want to gradually increase the amount of water to find the "sweet" spot as far as water is concerned.

There is no harm in using more oil and it will indeed provide flavor in the crust. I have seen and practiced recipes for deep-dish dough calling for over 20 percent fat (oil or shortening) and they produce good results. It's even quite possible that you can use your dough for a deep-dish or pan style, if the locals in El Grullo will go for those styles. Since you have cut back on the yeast, I suspect that with proofing of your dough skins in the pans, you should be able to produce some good crusts, whether normal or par-baked. Some time ago, we discussed the possibility of using potato flour to increase dough softness. I mention it again here without knowing whether that is a good option for you in Mexico, where your choices of ingredients are not as wide as in the U.S.

Since you indicate that you are using instant dry yeast (IDY) and not active dry yeast (ADY), then the only remaining point worth repeating is to add the oil after the water, as chiguy discussed in some detail.

Continued good luck, and I hope you will continue to keep us informed of your progress to become the best pizza operator in Mexico.

Peter

[jeancarlo]

Unfortunately there's no potatoe flour here, but there is potato flakes to make mashed potatoes. How a bout rice flour? We have rice flour here but I don't know if it'll be as good as using potatoe flour.
I have experimented adding oil, then water then more oil to dough and it has worked out pretty well. I'll try doing water first then oil and see what results I get. Thick crust pizzas and/ or pan pizzas are the one's I sell the least since people here are more into traditional or thin and crispy dough, but I will try the dough to make some of those as well.

[Ronzo]

Unfortunately there's no potatoe flour here, but there is potato flakes to make mashed potatoes. How a bout rice flour? We have rice flour here but I don't know if it'll be as good as using potatoe flour.
I have experimented adding oil, then water then more oil to dough and it has worked out pretty well. I'll try doing water first then oil and see what results I get. Thick crust pizzas and/ or pan pizzas are the one's I sell the least since people here are more into traditional or thin and crispy dough, but I will try the dough to make some of those as well.

Your local Whole Foods (if you can find one in your area) will have potato flour.


Most grocery stores do have potato flour, but they have a very limited selection and its often hidden where you wouldn't expect to find it.

[Pete-zza]

jeancarlo,

I personally wouldn't use the rice flour. It might be OK for creating a gluten-free dough or for use on the peel for dusting purposes, but I wouldn't personally use it in the type of dough you are using because I don't see any particular advantage from using it.

You can use fresh potatoes in a deep-dish or pan style dough but the potato flakes you mentioned, if they are the type as are commonly sold in the supermarkets in the U.S., usually have bisulfites added. The bisulfites prevent discoloration of the potatoes but they can also affect the yeast activity. Of course you can experiment for yourself with a small amount of dough and see what happens.

Peter