Author Topic: Super long fermentation  (Read 3707 times)

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Offline dellavecchia

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Super long fermentation
« on: November 01, 2012, 09:11:39 AM »
Rustic char, or massively over-fermented? 3 days fermentation with cake yeast:

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2012/10/first-look-brooklyn-central-park-slope.html

John


Offline scott r

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Re: Super long fermentation
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2012, 09:14:23 AM »
theres no way its too fermented.    if you can shape it, get it off your peel, and especially if its still round like that.... well then its good to go!      there is still decent coloration in the non blackened parts to back this up.    If it were way too fermented you would have pure ghost white there.


Thank heavens we have a neapolitan place offering pepperoni.   Even after all the experimentation with unusual, or typical neapolitan toppings, this remains one of my favorite pies ever (as long as you get the right pepperoni that doesnt immediately turn black in the high heat)        

Way to go with the buffala or lioni as well.    Lioni has always been my favorite for fresh mozzarella, and buffala is the best cheese to put on a pizza of course!.   

too bad about those char spots (ill bet any amount of money the bottom of that pie is completely destroyed)   
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 09:21:03 AM by scott r »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Super long fermentation
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2012, 10:13:27 AM »
I don't know. It looks overfermented to me. The cornice on the pepperoni looks flat - like it collapsed - like the dough wasn't strong enough to hold the expanding gas. Same thing with the large black spot. Usually when you see a very large black area, it's a bubble that pushed out. This looks like the bubble popped and fell back into the dough. Several of the large black spots are actually recessed. Same things on the North Maple pie. These are close to crossing the line between charred and burned.

What do you think of the semi-calzone? At first I didn't like it - looked too much like a launch failure - but now it's growing on me in a rustic way. I like how the ham can char. It reminds me a little of John's Racchetta.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline scott r

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Re: Super long fermentation
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2012, 10:18:40 AM »
to each his own...   Ill bet the texture and flavor would have been divine if the pie was pulled 20 seconds earlier.       

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Super long fermentation
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2012, 10:27:14 AM »
Maybe. I don't think the things that caused the weakness in the dough (if that is what it is) happened in the last 20 seconds of baking though. Looks like it might be on the dense/hard side to me.

Say you're correct, 20 seconds is quite an error in it's own right.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Mangia Pizza

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Re: Super long fermentation
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2012, 10:38:47 AM »
I am far from knowing the reason why, but the overcharred spots look un-appealing to me....... and I am not sure they would have served it in a pizzeria in Italy like that.....

Than again, like Scott said, to each his own.....so.......
Paolo

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Super long fermentation
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2012, 11:24:30 AM »
http://newyork.grubstreet.com/2012/10/brooklyn-central-opens-in-park-slope.html

After viewing the slideshow, I'm going to use the word 'inconsistent'
Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends

Offline scott r

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Re: Super long fermentation
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2012, 11:27:30 AM »
I agree that this char is ugly.  I don't know about dough collapsing, but I know that I just absolutely love dough that has gone as far as it can go.... but not off the cliff.    I dont mind trading some oven spring for more flavor, absolute tenderness, and pizza that doesnt toughen at all after cooling.   I remember a talk I had once with one of the employees at Keste.   He was unhappy because apparently Roberto was the only pizzaiolo there that could handle the dough when it got to the super fermented point.    His feeling was that when roberto was making the pies, they were miles beyond those produced by his employees because of the extreme fermentation.

Its quite possible that this place takes it too far sometimes, but just sayin... longer is usually better.     When visiting NY a few weeks ago trying a bunch of different pizzerias, it was clear that the major problem with almost every pizzeria was using the dough too early.   Its easier to handle, easier to make perfectly round, easier to make uniform in thickness, but unfortunately the pizza just isn't as good as it would be later down the line.    
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 11:35:35 AM by scott r »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Super long fermentation
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2012, 11:40:19 AM »
Maybe it's something else then, or maybe they have gone beyond super-fermented to over-fermented? I've stood right next to Roberto as he made pies from super-fermented dough, and they didn't look anything like these. Interestingly, the one picture of a pie on their website doesn't look anything like these.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline scott r

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Re: Super long fermentation
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2012, 11:42:58 AM »
im sure roberto didn't leave the pizza in the oven for an extra 20 seconds


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Super long fermentation
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2012, 11:45:48 AM »
im sure roberto didn't leave the pizza in the oven for an extra 20 seconds

No - for sure not - but even if he had it would not have looked like those pies with the big/recessed bubbles.

I agree that longer is usually better - to a point - there is a point where it starts to go the other direction.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline bakeshack

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Re: Super long fermentation
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2012, 11:47:10 AM »
IMHO, this is exactly what Marco was referring to in this thread - http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20507.msg202396.html#msg202396

This is what I usually see with many American neapolitan-style pizzerias (with a few exceptions like Keste, etc.) whereas the ones you see from Naples have the micro blistering with a more evenly browned background.  Even with an overfermented dough like Keste, you will not get this type of char spots that you see in their pies here.   However, since they are not claiming to be a true Neapolitan pizzeria, they may be going for a different product altogether.  Maybe, they are using the Neapolitan concept as a marketing tool only since they even opted to use an authentic Neapolitan oven.  

This is definitely a cold fermented dough and not necessarily over fermented, IMO.

Marlon





« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 11:49:17 AM by bakeshack »

buceriasdon

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Re: Super long fermentation
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2012, 11:53:34 AM »

Offline scott r

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Re: Super long fermentation
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2012, 12:01:08 PM »
No - for sure not - but even if he had it would not have looked like those pies with the big/recessed bubbles.

I agree that longer is usually better - to a point - there is a point where it starts to go the other direction.

Ok, I guess we can agree to disagree.   I still feel that the brown (rather than pale white) hue of the non charred sections are a sign that there is still enough residual sugar left in the dough (and it is therefore not "massively over fermented" as the first post questions)

are there other issues with the pizza in question.... .Definitely!
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 12:02:42 PM by scott r »

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Super long fermentation
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2012, 12:19:51 PM »
I agree with the masses here that this pie does not look appealing, but at the same time do agree with Scott on the merits of highly fermented doughs.  My favorite dough is a very overblown 2 day room temperature ferment done with cake yeast and a reball.  The dough is a bear to work with which led me to try and develope an old dough method to try and get the flavor minus the over fermentation.  So far I've had no luck with that.

All you guys working with sourdough are probably getting the flavor much earlier due to you cultures.
-Jeff

Offline scott r

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Re: Super long fermentation
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2012, 12:32:25 PM »
Good point!    I use both sourdough cultures and commercial yeast, and all my comments here are based on the stated fact that this place is using commercial yeast.    I use my wild yeasted doughs much sooner.   

check out 1 o'clock to 4 o'clock on the first picture (the one I have been commenting on).     Maybe not the best pie you have ever seen, but it looks ok for a very well fermented dough right?   obviously the portion of the pizza furthest from the flame and not burned.    
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 01:11:30 PM by scott r »

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Super long fermentation
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2012, 01:30:21 PM »
This is a 24 hour warm bulk, 192 hour cold balled Caputo dough:


Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Super long fermentation
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2012, 01:32:18 PM »
This is a 24 hour warm bulk, 192 hour cold balled Caputo dough:



Very nice. What percentage of yeast/type did you use?

John

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Super long fermentation
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2012, 01:36:51 PM »
5 cup Caputo 00
3-1/2 cup water
2 tsp IDY
2 tsp salt
1 tsp brown sugar

Offline scott r

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Re: Super long fermentation
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2012, 01:39:09 PM »
btw craig.... I think your awesome... sorry if it seems like im arguing w you.     


 

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