Author Topic: Questions on dough (fridge and freezer times)  (Read 1870 times)

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Offline JasonT

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Questions on dough (fridge and freezer times)
« on: November 03, 2012, 11:19:53 AM »
Hey everyone....

I've been trying to absorb all of the info on this site for the last month and it has lead me to great results with my pizza sauce (6 in 1) and cheese (Grande). I recently started researching on how to make a great crust and due to Pete's suggestion, I bought a food scale. I also ordered a digital measuring spoon as well so everything can be as precise as possible.

The crust I was making for the last few months was a recipe I found on Food network. I always had a ton of flour left over in the bowl (no food scale at the time) and I let the dough rise for 30 minutes (ADY) per the recipe. I was using an all purpose flour as well.

As you can imagine, I kept finding the dough wasn't right, but my wife told me I was obsessed (please). So after doing further research on here, I realized I need a high gluten bread flour for starters and I needed to let my dough rise longer than 30 minutes.

I am currently up in Canada for a few months, so I don't have my mixer and am mixing the dough by hand. I just made my first doughball with the bread flour I got at Bulk Barn up here. I used Pete's recipe for the PJ clone here (reply #3):

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.0.html

I mixed the dough by hand and then put it directly in the fridge on Tuesday. I used a plastic container with Saran Wrap on the top. I plan to use it on Sunday. The dough has doubled in size, but I am seeing some golf ball sized bubbles on top. I popped them, but figure that wasn't a good idea?

I'm not sure if this dough is ok to use or not, so that is my first question.

My other questions are:

- I just realized I can use a food processor to mix the dough, so would I need to change any of the ingredients to do this?

- how long should I let the dough rise in the fridge and should I put it there right after mixing?

- if I want to make a double batch and freeze it, what is the best practice.

Again, I will be using Pete's PJ clone recipe.

Thx guys.



Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Questions on dough (fridge and freezer times)
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2012, 11:54:55 AM »

Offline mkevenson

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Re: Questions on dough (fridge and freezer times)
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2012, 12:41:26 PM »
Jason, sounds like you are having fun at making pizza! After reading your report, I re read Peters recipe and process as you referenced. I was a bit surprised that you would get a 2x dough ball rise in the fridge with that amount of yeast. I don't see any comparative observations in Peter's report. It sounds to me like the fermentation of the dough ball was accelerated beyond the desired result. Please let us know how the finished product turned out. Thanks for posting.

Mark
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Offline JasonT

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Re: Questions on dough (fridge and freezer times)
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2012, 01:46:05 PM »
JasonT,

Did you mean Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197?

Peter


Hi Peter,

My apologies. Post #3, reply #2.

Jason, sounds like you are having fun at making pizza! After reading your report, I re read Peters recipe and process as you referenced. I was a bit surprised that you would get a 2x dough ball rise in the fridge with that amount of yeast. I don't see any comparative observations in Peter's report. It sounds to me like the fermentation of the dough ball was accelerated beyond the desired result. Please let us know how the finished product turned out. Thanks for posting.

Mark


Hey Mark,

I'm having a lot of fun learning. Learning about baking percentages and the differences between volume and weighing was a big eye opener, as well as how important the protein content is for pizza dough. I was shocked at how there was no flour in the bowl after I followed Pete's exact weights for the flour and water.

As for the doughball itself, I think the doughball doubled in size, but I am probably wrong. It's hard to remember how it looked on Tuesday. Should I have weighed the doughball or done anything to be sure?

Jason

Offline bfguilford

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Re: Questions on dough (fridge and freezer times)
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2012, 01:47:23 PM »
Jason:

I know how you feel. "Obsessed" about making really good pizza? Is that supposed to be a bad thing?  ;)

Before I bought my Bosch compact mixer, I used a 25-year-old tank of a Cuisinart food processor to make my dough (not a PJ clone, but a NY style). It worked well with a steel blade (not the plastic dough blade). I started with all the water, IDY and salt, and about 1/2 the flour. Pulsed 5-6 times to incorporate, then added half of the remaining flour to incorporate, and then the last of the flour, and let it go for about 30 seconds. This method does generate more heat, so start off with cool water (I would suggest at 55-ish degrees).

Barry
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Offline JasonT

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Re: Questions on dough (fridge and freezer times)
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2012, 02:08:56 PM »
Jason:

I know how you feel. "Obsessed" about making really good pizza? Is that supposed to be a bad thing?  ;)

Before I bought my Bosch compact mixer, I used a 25-year-old tank of a Cuisinart food processor to make my dough (not a PJ clone, but a NY style). It worked well with a steel blade (not the plastic dough blade). I started with all the water, IDY and salt, and about 1/2 the flour. Pulsed 5-6 times to incorporate, then added half of the remaining flour to incorporate, and then the last of the flour, and let it go for about 30 seconds. This method does generate more heat, so start off with cool water (I would suggest at 55-ish degrees).

Barry

Hey Barry,

I'm a health freak, but I've been obsessed with Pizza since I was a kid. I think about it way too much, but I don't care.

I allow myself one cheat meal a week and it is guess what... Pizza! But because of that, I can only test new things once a week, so the whole process has been slow. I just need to get the crust right and I will be stoked.

Thx for the tips on the FP. It is right in line with other tips I have read.

Offline mkevenson

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Re: Questions on dough (fridge and freezer times)
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2012, 02:15:03 PM »
Hi Peter,

My apologies. Post #3, reply #2.

Hey Mark,

I'm having a lot of fun learning. Learning about baking percentages and the differences between volume and weighing was a big eye opener, as well as how important the protein content is for pizza dough. I was shocked at how there was no flour in the bowl after I followed Pete's exact weights for the flour and water.

As for the doughball itself, I think the doughball doubled in size, but I am probably wrong. It's hard to remember how it looked on Tuesday. Should I have weighed the doughball or done anything to be sure?

Jason

Jason, I generally just eyeball the dough ball, I weigh before it goes in the fridge but never have I done so after. The 2x size and the bubbles forming we're my only criteria for thinking that the fermentation was more than you wanted. After the counter rise before forming did the dough rise more? As a rookie dough maker I may be wrong, perhaps others more knowledgeable will reply.

Mark
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 03:36:28 PM by Pete-zza »
"Gettin' better all the time" Beatles

Offline bfguilford

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Re: Questions on dough (fridge and freezer times)
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2012, 02:26:45 PM »
Hey Barry,

I'm a health freak, but I've been obsessed with Pizza since I was a kid. I think about it way too much, but I don't care.

I allow myself one cheat meal a week and it is guess what... Pizza! But because of that, I can only test new things once a week, so the whole process has been slow. I just need to get the crust right and I will be stoked.

Thx for the tips on the FP. It is right in line with other tips I have read.

Yup. That sounds like me, Jason. Pizza is my once a week cheat meal (of course, I obsess about it the other 6 days a week).

Barry
Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

Offline JasonT

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Re: Questions on dough (fridge and freezer times)
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2012, 10:40:07 AM »
I made my pizza on Sunday and it looked beautiful when it was done... But my excitement quickly faded when I took my first bite. The dough was gummy and I believe it was either the dough or cooking process that was the culprit.

I am using straight 6 in 1 as the sauce (approx 3/4 c teaspoon of sugar), and I doubt it is the problem. Also, when I pulled the crust apart, it was partially gummy, so that also leads me to believe it wasn't the sauce.

My wife cooked the pizza at 450 on a pizza crisper for 5 minutes on the bottom rack, then moved it to the stone on the top rack, which was pre-baked at 550 for an hour. It cooked on the stone for about another 7 minutes. I forgot to tell her Pete's instructions for cooking on the bottom rack at 500 because I was watching football and trying to settle my little daughter down at the same time. So I blew it....

I am breaking my own rules and making two pizzas this week. I made a two day PJ clone dough, using Pete's recipe from the same thread above, reply #20. I used a food processor to mix it, using cold water. I am going to make a BBQ pizza with thick sauce on Thursday. Then see how the dough turns out.

I will cook it at 500, on a crisper pan, for 8-9 mins and see how the dough does at a higher temp on the bottom rack the entire time. If all goes well, I will make the same dough and have cheese pizza on Sunday.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2012, 10:44:27 AM by JasonT »

Offline JasonT

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Re: Questions on dough (fridge and freezer times)
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2012, 02:43:00 PM »
I made by BBQ pizza yesterday and it turned out as the best of any homemade crusts I have made to date. So big thx to Pete.

My wife is determined to ruin my perfect pie, because she once again started the dough early. I came into the kitchen and she had the BBQ sauce on the dough already, with the oven still preheating. She just laughed when I said she is going to kill my pizza, then made a stupid comment about my new digital measuring spoon... I'm starting to think she isn't taking this pizza thing as seriously as me.

So the pie went in about 5 mins after the oven hit 500. The stone was on the bottom rack, and I just decided to use that instead of the pan. The pie cooked for five minutes at 500... Halfway through, I saw a big bubble form on the back of the crust and started pacing, telling my wife she did kill my pie... I resisted the urge to open the oven and pop it.

I had lost hope at this point. However, when I took the pie out, it looked great, aside from the hunchback part. The top was done nicely and the bottom was perfectly brown. I cut the pie and my wife rolled her eyes as I looked for the air pockets... when I saw them, I was happy as hell. No gum line, just a perfect tasting crust, with a slight hint of sweetness.

I made my doughball today, for the cheese pizza I am making Sunday. This is the real test now. I think I am going to brush some garlic butter on the end of the crust. I want to get the top end of the crust a little more golden and harder, then Ill be happy. So I think the garlic butter will do the trick.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Questions on dough (fridge and freezer times)
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2012, 04:10:31 PM »
Jason,

I'm glad that things finally worked out well for you.

To be honest, I could not figure out how you got the large bubbles in the first PJ clone dough you made. My dough formulations and dough preparation methods are intended to work if followed as given so if you changed anything or possibly mismeasured the yeast, or used a fermentation temperature that was too high, that might have explained your results.

The PJ clone dough formulation you used, at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59217.html#msg59217, is perhaps the favorite of our members of all of the PJ clone formulations even though it is not quite as authentic (if there is any such thing as an authentic clone) as the first PJ dough formulation you used. 

I do not recall if I ever made any frozen PJ clone dough balls. However, if that is something that you want to do and you know it from the outset, you should increase the amount of yeast by about double or triple and then freeze the dough balls after they have been made. However, I am not sure how well that will work if you use the PJ clone formulation given at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197, mainly because the amount of yeast is so small to begin with. If it so happens that you have leftover PJ clone dough balls and you want to freeze them, you can do that also but you don't want to hold them in the freezer for more than a few days. Even then, there may be a small decline in quality of the finished crust.

There is also no reason why you can't use a food processor to make the PJ clone dough. As Barry mentioned, the key things to keep in mind is the water temperature and the duration of the mix time, both of which can and will affect the finished dough temperature and the window of fermentation. The post I usually cite on using a food processor to make pizza dough is at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2189.msg19291.html#msg19291. That post is directed to making a New York style dough but the methods apply as well to the American style, such as the PJ clone doughs you have been experimenting with.

Peter

Offline JasonT

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Re: Questions on dough (fridge and freezer times)
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2012, 04:56:52 PM »
Jason,

I'm glad that things finally worked out well for you.

To be honest, I could not figure out how you got the large bubbles in the first PJ clone dough you made. My dough formulations and dough preparation methods are intended to work if followed as given so if you changed anything or possibly mismeasured the yeast, or used a fermentation temperature that was too high, that might have explained your results.

The PJ clone dough formulation you used, at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59217.html#msg59217, is perhaps the favorite of our members of all of the PJ clone formulations even though it is not quite as authentic (if there is any such thing as an authentic clone) as the first PJ dough formulation you used. 

I do not recall if I ever made any frozen PJ clone dough balls. However, if that is something that you want to do and you know it from the outset, you should increase the amount of yeast by about double or triple and then freeze the dough balls after they have been made. However, I am not sure how well that will work if you use the PJ clone formulation given at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197, mainly because the amount of yeast is so small to begin with. If it so happens that you have leftover PJ clone dough balls and you want to freeze them, you can do that also but you don't want to hold them in the freezer for more than a few days. Even then, there may be a small decline in quality of the finished crust.

There is also no reason why you can't use a food processor to make the PJ clone dough. As Barry mentioned, the key things to keep in mind is the water temperature and the duration of the mix time, both of which can and will affect the finished dough temperature and the window of fermentation. The post I usually cite on using a food processor to make pizza dough is at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2189.msg19291.html#msg19291. That post is directed to making a New York style dough but the methods apply as well to the American style, such as the PJ clone doughs you have been experimenting with.

Peter


Pete,

There are two reasons I suspect I got air bubbles on the first clone...

I thought it said .5 Tbsp of yeast... Duh. I noticed the mistake when I looked it over again after the dough was already made.

I also think the hole I made in the top of the container that I put in the fridge, was too small. So perhaps not enough gas escaped?

I made the hole twice as big and used the exact amount of yeast for the BBQ pizza dough. It had zero bubbles and as I said, turned out well.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Questions on dough (fridge and freezer times)
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2012, 05:15:50 PM »
Jason,

I would say that the main culprit was the increased amount of yeast that you used. On a percent basis, that came to around 1.28%, or about nine times more than the dough formulation called for. At that level, the dough was perhaps destroyed and rendered unusable after about five days of fermentation in your refrigerator. I don't think that your lid opening had any material effect on what you got.

At least we solved the mystery.

Peter

Offline JasonT

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Re: Questions on dough (fridge and freezer times)
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2012, 06:46:06 PM »
Jason,

I would say that the main culprit was the increased amount of yeast that you used. On a percent basis, that came to around 1.28%, or about nine times more than the dough formulation called for. At that level, the dough was perhaps destroyed and rendered unusable after about five days of fermentation in your refrigerator. I don't think that your lid opening had any material effect on what you got.

At least we solved the mystery.

Peter

Ya, that would do it. I'm usually careful and double check things, but I blew that big time. Kind of comical and a good learning experience to see how yeast affects dough.

I'll let you know how the pie turns out Sunday. I'm thinking the garlic butter will take it over the top.

Thx for all of the help.

Jason

Offline JasonT

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Re: Questions on dough (fridge and freezer times)
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2012, 06:46:05 PM »
I was traveling the last few weeks, so I didn't get to make the pizza I wanted until yesterday.

I figure Pete takes a lot of time to help people, so the least I could do was let him know my pizza was perfection.

This was the final step to making pizzera style pizza and I nailed it, thanks to Pete and other info I picked up on here (6 in 1 sauce and Grande cheese).

Now I just have to experiment with things and see where it takes me.

Thx again, Pete.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 06:47:42 PM by JasonT »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Questions on dough (fridge and freezer times)
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2012, 06:51:29 PM »
Jason,

You're welcome. I'm glad things turned out well.

Peter


 

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